TMNT...to wishy washy?
 

I have a guy friend that I have been trying to hooked on TMNTsince he was never really into it growing up. So i've been showing him the Live action movies and the 2k3 series and recently the New Cgi movie. Well in my endever to show how awsome the TMNT are I was purposely exposing him to the more serious and hard core and dramatic epsides of the 2k3 series and that best show case the turtles dynaimics and characters, thinking that he''ll think it was as cool as I do. Well I got quite the oppioste reaction.
He was like "this is an action series!?:o

He said he felt that the turtles where to wishy washy, and that they are to emotional and dramatic to be taken seriously as a action franchise. He felt that the family dynmaic was to dramatic and that for suppsed hardned warriors that the turtles where rather sencitive and wimpy in there emotions. He said it seemed like the turtles are always breaking down over every little thing that happens to them and that only serves to have overly sickening cuddly "family make-up" moments and that it would be better if it focused more on plot and action rather on "boo hoo, i'm not Splinter;s favorite" moments.(and this is from the serious medims of the franchise). And basicaly said that he felt the TMNT was more of a thinly veiled chick franchise rather than a guys on since it the turtles are so emotional.

Jeez, I was really shocked and tried to explain to him that, yeah the turtles have a deep family dymamic that gets attention, but they are still kick ass and lethal, and that I felt the family thing humanised him. And he said thats because I'm a girl :roll:. He just felt that the turtles would be better if they where portrayed more badass and tough rather than emotinal and wishy-washy. Heck I even tried to change his mind by showing some more epsiode of the 2k3 series that don't have alot of family stuff in it but he wasn't convinced.

So do you all think, do you think the turtles are biit to emotional or wishy-washy? and it focuses more on the family than action? Personaly I like that the turtle show emotions like hurt and frustration and jealously and love for each othetr. I think it make them more realistic. But I got the typical "well your a girl so of course you'll like that" brush off" so I guess being a gilr makes my opinion null and void. But from an out sider point of view (or a guys), do you kinda agree that the turtles can be to emtional sometimes to the point that it takes away their warriorness?

Emotions don't work well in an action series.... just look at Spider-Man, Batman, the X-men....:roll:

You can't tell any kind of story with out having emotions. That just doesn't make sense.

Since when was it unacceptable for a warrior to have emotions? :lol: Not all emotions are the same. The Spartans from 300 showed emotion. It wasn't all geared toward the same thing as the turtles' emotions are but still, everyone has emotion.

To play both sides of the issue though, the current series is a children's program so I can see how your friend might see that aspect of it.

It's not ok to have emotions ever since Emo became popular.:lol:

No... Emo is pretending to be emotions. Emo is a lazy person's goth. Now I'm no goth fan, but Goth girls are hot. Maybe it's the contrast between the jet black clothing and the pale "I don;t go outside in the sunlight" skin.

But aside from that...

The X-men are more "wishy washy" than the TMNT are. So isn't Spiderman. How those 2 can't make good action shows is beyond me. Mayhaps your friend is confusing action cartoons with action movies. Or wrestling or something.

Or maybe he's better suited for a cartoon show about Data from Star Trek TNG fighting accountants.

The family dynamic is one of the best things about TMNT. It's called character development. If I don't care about the characters, I don't become invested in their lives, their stuggles, their story. A cool fight becomes 10 times cooler if you know WHY the characters are fighting because there is an emotional investment for the character and the audience. That is what makes a truly satisfying viewing/reading experience in my opinion, not some surface "pop-corn flick" entertainment. I want my characters to make me "feel" as well as kick butt. Anything less than that, is unsatifying like something is missing, and usually isn't worth repeat viewing.

I don't think TMNT is wishy-washy. I love the emotions and character development of this toon. Emotions are a good thing to have because you can relate to the characters more. When Leo was going through his angsty mood in season 4, I could relate because I've felt that way myself. I don't like to fail and feel upset when I do. That's why I really like this series a lot. However, if your friend doesn't want to give it a chance, it's his opinion.

The X-men are more "wishy washy" than the TMNT are. So isn't Spiderman. How those 2 can't make good action shows is beyond me. Mayhaps your friend is confusing action cartoons with action movies. Or wrestling or something.

That's pretty much the main reason why I like the X-men so much. I liked the different personas and how the past and present affects them as people and how being "different" influences them and the choices they make(with the exception being Apocolypse, as he's an alien). This does bare quite a few similarities with TMNT though if you concentrate.

Back to the original point though, if it was just an action series, wouldn't some folk want to know why they fight crime? Why do they have a big rivalry with Shredder? Why would they care about anything? And, what are their personalities if they're not robots? Personally I think the human factor adds dimension to the characters.

[QUOTE=Matt;556193] That's pretty much the main reason why I like the X-men so much. I liked the different personas and how the past and present affects them as people and how being "different" influences them and the choices they make(with the exception being Apocolypse, as he's an alien). This does bare quite a few similarities with TMNT though if you concentrate./QUOTE]

Apocolypse is an ancient mutant enhanced with alient technolodgy, actually.

On the movie side, I'm getting the hint this guy doesn't actually like GOOD action movies, well made ones. Just mindless flics with bad scripting and direction.

Personally, I think your bud is trying to get a rise out of you. There really isn't a really good action movie, tv series, cartoon that doesn't have the emotions. Action is emotion, and it's only common sense that the creators play on those emotions to reel in the audience and make them want more.

Tooth I'm talking about how everyones (mostly redneck jocks) are mocking emotional things now because ooo it's so emo! yeah not emo kids who are lazy goths thats exactly how I see it as well.

TMNT was wishy-washy since Leo hugged Raph in the first TMNT movie....


Kidding!!! just kidding! yeah, the family dynamic works for the turtles, as do their struggles. I mean the Leo/Karai fights alone are more intense due to Leo's internal conflict to either kill her or screw her.

What would be the point in the action without some kind of emotion? Otherwise you have no reason to really care what happens, which is what goes wrong in a lot of action movies.

Spider-Man, X-Men, Batman...all have emotional elements. That's why people care and continue to come back to the series...as opposed to something that is mindless action which may be fun briefly but is forgotten.

Oooh, I cant believe you went there. But yeah, there is definitely some sort of unseen mental fight going on there with Leo, and it has nothing to do with believing the good in someone. Some will preach there is no proof, well, I see it as some hint writers of the series threw in there and cleverly hid it under all the censorship. But the fire is there if you were to look good enough!

Actually, Apocalypse is an near-immortal mutant who uses alien technology (Celestial, to be exact) to enhance himself.

Screw her? I doubt that. He spares her for the same reason Michaelangleo didn't finish Kluh in Grudge Match: it's the honorable thing to do. I'm honestly not sure he actually thought there was good in her or that she could be trusted any more than his bros did since she never showed to be, but Bushido prevents them from killing unless there's absolutely no other choice. They were never actually "forced" to kill her in order to stay alive.

Real men appreciate some good wishy washy stuff.


the turtles are dynamic; in the comics they're like they are in the 2K3 toon/movies. they're being protrayed true to their character as much as they can do on tv-so what he wants is something that the TMNT aren't.

If there are NO emotions there is NO character development, if there's no emotions the characters don't give a rat's rear about saving the day

mm, you may be right about that, because every defence I was throwing his way about why the turtles family dynmiac is cool he would rebuttle with "well, that's cause your a girl! And girls like that that sh*t" :roll:

But really I think I sort of help give him this impression of the turtles being wishy-washy, since when I was showing him episodes of the 2k3 series, I was showing him the ones that had intencely high emotinal scenes and reactions from the turtles and getting all sad, that did, admitedly end with some sort of "awww" family moment. But I do like that stuff about the turtles and I think that why I unconsciencely showed all the episodes that show big emotinal monets for the turtles team. Like Tales of Leo, Samaria Tourist, Scicion of the Shredder, Prodgical Son, Search For Splinter, Same as it Never Was Return to New York ect. All episodes where the turtles are all stressing and scared of losing one another or rejoicing that they found each other and are together again, or some sort of delima that involved them getting emotional.

So yeah, I guess I kinda gave him the wrong impression of the turtles by the episodes that I picked. Although I would like to add, so you don't think my buddy is a complete heartelss jerk, he's not against emotion in action oriented characters, he just says he thinks the turtles are portrayed to be to "wishy washy" as he calls it, for his taste. Like instead of crying about it, act like a warrior and do something about it. I can't tell you how much I wanted to kick him in the balls for that remark, since I think the turtles in the 2k3 series do handle emotion in a very touching and realistic way and do something about it instead of just nothing. And its not like they break down into tears every time one of them gets smacked around by an enemy :roll:. I think what my buddy doesn't grasp fully that I haven't been able to get across to him , is that the reason the turtles may come across as so emotinal when one of them is hurt or in danger, is that they are not just team mates that fight bad guys together their brothers. And a big part of the TMNT's dynamic is that they are not only just brothers they are the only ones of their kind and they only have each other. So of course they are going to get extra emotional if something happens to them or if one of them is in danger.

Actually yeah he does like that sort of thing. He likes stuff like Spawn and Lady Death and other comics that have lot of violence and killing in it. He likes the dark stuff and I was foolish enough to say "well you want to know what else is pretty cool" and well here we are.

Here here. TMNT can be far more in depth as a cartoon than most blockbuster action movies could be. It's a shame that some people can not understand the heart of the Turtles, and what keeps them all together - family. They are a very close-knitt family, and would do anything for each other. Even kill.

Some genetic movies are just based around the simple plot of boy mets girl, girl gets kidnapped, boy saves girl, boy becomes man, and man goes and gets the girl in the end while beating up a few thugs with guns on the way. At least TMNT has some originality and emotion to it... :ohwell:

nonsence,our turtles r wishy-washy?!never had i seen more decisive guys than them,dude.and emotional?wut he never use his right brain?that's no logic at all!
the fact's an exellent warrior's not the one who forever avoids of his emotion,but the one who can at his will control his emotion,the one who can at his will discipline his mind.one free of emotion's just not complete,is a lame!
he just don't understand these,*snort*i say,he just dont like our turtles,*snort*.>[

Wishy Washy! I've only ever seen raph take a shower in 2k3 none of them wishy wash heck they don't even wash their hair.:P :lol:

I do not see anything wishy-washy about TMNT.

Utena on the other hand...

One word - Lobo the last Czarnian.

... OK, there were actually four words.

Utena confuses me. It's a japanese cartoon, but it's filled with so much depressing imagry and confusing symbolism you could mistake it for an Eastern European cartoon show.

Not as confusing as "Worker and Parisite" though...

Did I tell y'all that my best friend HATES Utena and it's her least favorite anime, even though she watched it 6 years ago?

My least favorite on the other hand is Serial Experiments Lain. Watching the "traumatized Leo" episodes of Season 4 is nothing compared to how PAINFUL Lain is to watch.

I LOVE LOBO! WOOO!!

That's the best mindless violence in comics!! And it's only best if the Biz is drawin him too...cos Biz is the only dude who should draw Lobo.

What's Lobo

This is Lobo.

I think my least favorite is anything they have on non-cable netwrok television right now. Dinosaur King? Yugioh? No thanks. No thanks.

Oh frik... I just went totally off topic, didn't I?

God, I remember him. Wasn' there a Superman episode with him in it and he was played by Brad Garrett?

Why's that? I don't remember Eastern European cartoon shows being that depressing and symbolic, actually.

Yep. Lobo was in Superman TAS, and also Justice League.

but he does have those space dolphins he protects.

...
 

Granted, I always preferred the old cartoon to the current one, but to say the current incarnation of the Turtles are "wishy-washy" is a bit much. Character development is important for ANY cartoon, from Ninja Turtles to Spider-Man to Bugs Bunny (I've got a whole BOOK on the Looney Tunes crew, and how certain traits the characters have make them funny, and how important it is for them to not break character). The only way that a cartoon with all action and an emotionless hero could become popular is with a lot of hype and advertising. Just look at Batman*.
Either you did poorly select the episodes, or your friend simply doesn't see/appreciate all the levels of sophistication that animation has to offer. Sadly, that's fairly common, nowadays; many people don't see animation and comics as an art form as complex and detailed as anything hanging in the Louvre. Comics and animation are often appreciated for their entertainment value and their appearance, but to truly see it as ART is a rare trait these days.




*(I'm kiddin', folks... I know Batman's got some depth and emotion and all... I just never liked him all that much)

:lol:

Weird. About every male I've ever talked with about comics turned into cartoons agree with me, that the comics kick cartoons ass because of the more intense touch of the characters. It's the same reason why I generally prefer a book instead a movie.

And I'm not talking only about the Turtles here. I've read my Marvels too (isn't them like a weird soap opera turned into an action comic). :P Every actionsuperhero has his/her own issues to deal with while saving the world and stuff, I've noticed. :tcool:

kinda agree.
seems TVs do have their confine,from,u kno,various channels,
movies r a li'l better,OVAs r best!:D
but of course it's the original comics win.

but the formers offer voices,musics,ect.which r way more tempting than comics,again.and im totally into voices...:ohwell:

but to say true things,the current season does deviate too far,as if it caters to low age kids...:o

not anymore they got killed eons ago :(


and yeah marvel's universe is a big fat super hero soap and it feels that if you wanted to get into them, you hafta start at the beginning. you can't just read a book and go from there. i tried with F4...im like HUH!? whats this thing about heros needing to do this crap? and it was a long xover story so you'd buy buybuby all the issues that dealt with it ugh

There is nothing wrong with the episodes you picked. They are action packed with a wide range of genres thrown into one big mix (meaning you have the comedy, angst, action, drama)

But just look this forum here, dedicated to the team in green. I think the members gender are about even, both females and male. I doubt the mass of male members here would join this if the Turtles were too sappy. I will say that the Turtles have some sort of appeal that both boys and girls can relate to and enjoy. And theres nothing wrong with that.