What These Cartoons Did To Turtles
 

I was watching Batman: The Movie last night and it dawned on me, the 80's toon is the TMNT equivalent. See the Adam West series was so popular and wide spread it completely dwarfed the comics and changed the public perception on Batman for decades. It took Burton's film to change that and even it was taken with a heavy shot of that series. Begins was really the first serious true to source, in tone at least, Batman film. It only took over 40 years to get it.

I fear Turtles will suffer the same fate or worse will never be viewed as its source material is. This new series is a strong testament to that. I know for most this isn't an issue but it does suck for fans like myself who are tired of the pizza eating and surfer slang.

Anyways observation I found interesting. Discuss?

I've been saying this for years. Every new widespread incarnation of the TMNT that seems to pop up... it's, well, it's a bit like Groundhog Day.

Let me plagiarize myself from another thread:

Alternately, I hate to think of what might happen if this movie is a box office smash and if the story is horrific.

With things like NT:TNM, the last movie, and probably this one as well... I find it's a bit like Groundhog Day. I don't mean the Groundhog Day movie, I mean Groundhog Day itself. What am I talking about, you ask?

We all know how it works. If the groundhog emerges from its burrow and all is well, that means spring is coming early; if it emerges from its burrow, sees its shadow, and goes back into its burrow... that means winter continues for another six weeks.

With TMNT, every additional mass media incarnation -- particularly the movies -- that come out that are ghastly, kid and toy-pandering debacles... each one of these keeps signifying another 5-10 years of pop culture continuing to believe that is the definitive Ninja Turtles, when it's anything but. And the clock just keeps being reset 5-10 years on this, over and over again.

it's been mentioned many times before Spit. Many fans are constantly waiting with baited breath for some sort TMNT Begins media to take the Turtles back to their roots. The "FW Turtles = Adam West Batman" analogy has been used before to add to the fan hopes that we will eventually see a more serious take on the Turtles.

I find this issue extremely sad. The worst part is that it seems to be somehow accumulative, as every new incarnation seems to push the source material a bit further from the public's eye. I personally think that a franchise this big could be turn into many different incarnations with no harm to its identity (just like Batman's had Batman: The Animates Series in 1992 and Batman: The Brave And The Bold in 2008), but it appears as if the FW cartoon is becoming more and more the source material for the new TMNT iterations, replacing the real one. This doesn't affect the use of characters and situations as much as it affects the overall tone of the writing, where we seem to be stucked with, as Spitfire put it, pizza eating and surfer slang.

Now, I find it easier for me to enjoy products like the Nick toon way better than the IDW run. After all, I grew up with the FW cartoon and I'm used to TMNT being a kid's show on TV, and Nickelodeon is doing a good job at that, in my opinion.

IDW, however, seems to be suffering from the same issues, and that's the worst part for me. I understand how they need to aim at a larger audience, and that has to tone down the stories somehow and utilize elements that are widely recognizable, but the way it's being done still carries the same portrayal of many characters. It's more an update of the FW cartoon than it is its own thing, and I hardly see any true trace of the source material in it.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. It's not a bad comic, it's just not the TMNT comic I expected it to be.

We need a TMNT equivalent to The Dark Knight Returns :P

Unfortunately any hope of that probably died with the Viacom/Nickelodeon sale. Now, even if there was a director out there passionate about the source material enough to make a proper TMNT film as a passion project (as opposed to the way every TMNT movie to date has been made, which has begun with the studio, with execs saying, "We think a TMNT movie will be profitable at this juncture... how do we proceed?") it is unlikely that Viacom/Nick would allow any kind of a raw adaptation of the source material. It wouldn't happen until if and when there's another TMNT sale.

Damn it, if only Megan Ellison was a Mirage TMNT fan...

But... wasn't the first live-action movie the TMNT equivalent of Batman Begins?

It certainly took the franchise back to its roots. Drawing heavily from the original comics and proving that the TMNT could be portrayed in a realistic universe.

So... I think the cavalry may have already come, so to speak. At least it has if you're the type who preaches the gospel of ad fontes and desperately awaits the Second Coming.

EDIT:
But for myself, I say pimp out the Fred Wolf elements at every opportunity. Give me my live-action Technodrome!

No. No, it was not.

Mask of the Phantasm?

Well then you're in luck. Other than making a big deal out of their first slice in the first episode, they only eat pizza casually (and enjoy other foods) and there is no surfer slang to be found in Nickelodeon's TMNT.

Unless he was lying, Jonathan Liebesman is a Mirage fan. So we'll see.

I guess it comes down to how much it matters to you that the public perception sees the tmnt in the vein of the source material. Is it important that people understand so that our obsessions are validated? Or perhaps to get some real money invested in a 'true' adaption? Even if we do get the Nolan movies, they'll be just that - branches of a franchise. There are many solid branches that form the tmnt franchise, if anything it gives it strength.

That's a vast understatement. Cartoons and comic books fly under the radar for the most part, theatrical films are a way bigger deal.

If the new movie still has alien Turtles in it, its going to do far more damage than anything else will.

Not a bad point but really that film bombed and many more people saw Batman Forever and Batman and Robin which kept the public thinking Batman wasn't to be taken very seriously.



No you're right. It has a new set of problems. Phrases like "Booyakasha", bad anime moments that completely break flow, and an overall spastic tone. Reminds me a bit of Ultimate Spider-man in that regard. I struggled to finish just one episode of that series and even being Turtles I kind of had the same issue with this one. It's not for me, not in the vain I'm talking about, and doing everything to keep the public perception that TMNT are goofy party animals who fight with slap stick. Not as bad as the OT in that regard but not doing any favors.


That talent-less hack could be the world's biggest TMNT fan with a tattoo of Eastman and Laird's autographs on his ass and it wouldn't matter. He's a terrible director and by all accounts I doubt even if they handed him a gold plated TMNT script he could do it any justice.

Yes I'm very cynical. :P

Oh sod off you complete pessimist bore. Your insistence that the franchise follow a grim and gritty no-nonsense vision boarders on pure forum spam these days. The Turtles are FAR better off being pop culture kids icons and the shows are all critically acclaimed.

You and your kind have got your comics, read them and be content, the rest of the world eats up the Turtles in their more commercially viable forms. At this rate, your stubborn negative attitude will leave you resenting the Turtles more and more, leaving very little love for them. Not the calling card of a true fan is it? But then, when have you EVER been a true fan? You like one vision and to hell with the rest, you are not broad, you are not open, and thus you are completly out of touch with how commercial enterrprises run, and out of touch with worldly perception.

Maybe you're just way too old for TMNT, ever think about that? You could do us all a favour and go away now, before I destroy you any further with an acutal concept of how the real world operates

I feel like if they keep trying to revive the turtles in new, fresh ways, they've gotta get around to a more direct adaptation eventually.

But people loved the Adam West Batman series. And people loved the Tim Burton Batman movies. Same goes for the FW cartoon and the live-action movies.

I mean, a comic adaptation would be cool to many of us, but of course that's never going to be what most people expect when they hear "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles," and giving them something different is a risk.

We're lucky we ever got The Dark Knight or The Dark Knight Rises, because Batman Begins made less money than Superman Returns (it just didn't cost as much to make). It was financially successful, but it was no smash. It turned out to be fantastic as a series, but like I said, we're lucky it even had a chance to grow.

But hey, as successful as the Nick series is, gritty and dark might still be in style. Oddly enough, The Dark Knight trilogy and the Avengers series took opposite sides of that, at the same time, and both worked...

The Nick toons seems to be very faithful to it's roots imo.

I like that they eat pizzas again (something lacking in the 2k3 version). And surfer slang, you mean Cowabunga (equivalent of booyakasha nowadays)?

Tired of them? Not me. That's their trademark.
And it's fun.

I coudnt give a rat's backside for "grim and gritty", it's a creativly bankrupt genre at the worst of times and it doesnt automatically make anything "better".

The very first issue of TMNT is objectivly terrible. It is just mindless violence with nice pictures and no plot to speak of. Turtles have never been all that interesting with the dark tone, it's a ridiculous premise to even take seriously, so why not have be all cartoonish? That's what it lends itself best to, and why every TMNT show has had a good long run. It is a complete bore when played straight. That's why the first movie blended the two worlds, the slapstick and the seriousness, together, and why the 2003 show did it's best to interject humor, it wasnt all that succesful with it, but it needed variety.

People who want "dark, dark dark" have no idea what they want in the end, they are always looking at the world through a glum lens thinking nothing light and soft can be any good, they see it as an affront to the reality they cling to, in truth they are insecure about themselves and embarrased by thier childhood innocense. The movie and 4Kids cartoon are the closest to reflecting their visions, and yet still they are not satisfied because they're not "gritty enough". They want the Turtles decapitating people, they want them sticking their katanas in people's guts, they want them swearing, they want them to be anarchists. I ask of you people...how does that make for interesting or compelling reading or enjoyable television that appeals to the masses? It's completly and totally one-note and you know it

I love me some fun loving Turtles. the FW and Nick series are my favorites by far. And the fact that I can watch them with my 3 year old since they aren't dark and gritty is a plus. Heck, I like the Avengers movie much more than the latest Nolan Batman movie. In fact, I didn't like his last film at all.

i think the idea of movie 1 being "batman begins" is a valid point. granted, when it was done, it was well-received but the direction the film franchise went from there was, sadly, a victim of the times. it wasn't how it is now, where nolan did the first bat-flick and the studios trusted him enough to hand him the reigns to the franchise. back then, the movie was a success and all the studio's saw were dollar signs. they were so desperate to milk the cash cow that, for fear of losing their golden goose, they ended up watering it down to try and pander to the widest audience, losing the core of what made that first movie so good. (sorry for mixing farm-animal metaphors).

as much as you railed against andrew's point of view (insultingly and in an incredibly immature fashion, i might add) you sound like the exact opposite of his argument. which is just as silly and hard to take seriously.

at least andrew poses his thoughts level-headedly.

I don't see why the '87 cartoon has a negative/ embarassing view among some fans on the internet. It was aimed at kids and did a heck of a job. There are some silly aspects to it and like anything that interest us as kids we like to forget or blush about later on . I don't see why the black and white comics should ever dominate the Ninja Turtles property. If it did a good chuck of fans could care less about it and won't participate because the Ninja Turtles evolved beyond it. The black and white comics specifcally the early stuff should be adapted for wider appreciation just as it has wonderfully in the first film and again by adapting the comics into a cartoon. It was great because it allowed other media influence to take hold. The darker grittier stuff can only go so far and only cater to so many. I could never get behind the idea of them being murderers or Shredder and Rat King being dead for good with just random punks and mobs if not a Foot Clan without Shredder being the villains. The comics sales beyond the early Mirage are a testament to that. IDW realizes the few that actually perfer the black and white stuff if continued on as a comic would bring abysmal sales because so many of us fans could care less or just get issues here and there that interest them. I know I would be in the latter category and look for character like Shredder, Rat King, and Leatherhead to appear. The Ninja Turtles are a family friendly franchise that should cater to all ages not just a select few that like blood and guts. Adapting the other media into the comics is what should have been done ages ago. It works if allowed to and the comic is a runaway success because it is reaching to everyone not being subbornly dark and unadapting. The other media should always dominate and just nod to the black and white comics as being the first medium in which the Ninja Turtles appeared. Its been done and can be read over and over by those that want to. It does not have to be '87 cartoon influenced but I will take as much as possible since its the way I see my favorite heroes. Ignoring my bias preference its just simply other media needs to be the template for it to be successful. If some of the black and white comic influence is there its cool just should not be in the driver's seat. The Ninja Turtles should never have an overwhelming dark tone. Its just not what it is. It was intended as a one off PARODY in the first place and it evolved into the black and white comics and then from there an other media juggernaunt that introduced nearly all of us to the TMNT beginning with the '87 cartoon and then the '03 cartoon for the second generation.

Hm. I hate Ultimate Spider-Man too, but I love this new Turtles show and I don't see the comparison (Teen Titans yes, but not USM). Everyone's different.

However, I have to say you're wrong about "slap-stick fighting". Sometimes there's humorous moments during the fights, but not always. Have you seen "The Gauntlet"? They have a pretty intense throw down with Shredder, taking plenty cues from Vol. 1 #1.

I feel Spitfire won't make it to the part where the Turtles face Shredder and tune out when the talking pigeon appears.

Pigeon Pete was pretty annoying. Still one of my favorite episodes.

The cartoons did the right thing.

Except for the 2003 version.

Could you expand on what you mean by this?

The 2003 version did the most right thing except for humor in terms of still being a kids show.

Kinda feel the 2K3 cartoon ruined any chance of there ever being a Mirage-type series. To the non-comic fan a Mirage series would look a lot like 2K3 season 1, except even more serious and with blood, and Shredder dying in the first episode. By the time they get past all the Triceraton/Return to New York stuff and finally get to City at War, most of the fans would have tuned out.

Then there would be other fans wondering when Ch'Rell and other 2K3 exclusive characters will appear. Just like some fans back then saw 'Shredder Strikes Back' and assume they were ripping off the movie using Leo instead of Raph, they'd be confused with a Mirage-type series and assume it's just ripping off the 2K3 series.

yeah, I just assume Spitfire would turn off the TV during the opening act and miss out on Shredder.

I don't think anyone was dumb enough to believe there would be blood or killing in the 4kids show. It was a Saturday morning cartoon and we all knew it.

If the 4kids series didn't do anything new and just was episode adaptions without the violence it would have been terrible. They managed to make the show truly unique and stand out among other incarnations thanks to the new ideas it presented.

Yeah, the Mirage series is just too serious for kids to get into. Especially City at War that feature Casey Jones growing up and falling for a pregnant woman, Splinter facing he has to be the animal that he is and eat fellow rats to avoid dying of starvation and the Turtles seriously questioning their role in the whole Hamato/Saki feud WITHOUT going into the traditional 'we're doing it because it's the right thing to do' mindset. I really don't see Leo saying 'I would gladly give my life for Splinter, but I won't live my life for him' (paraphrasing) in a kid's show. It's not just oooooh blood, and oooh they kill the people! It's just the overall serious tone without bumbling bad guys or Mike doing something funny every 5 minutes.

I mean I prefer the cartoons over Mirage.

Except for the 2003 version. I only barely prefer that over Mirage.

The thing is, the Turtles has always, in one way or another, been a "joke" franchise. The Mirage books took the completely absurd premise of teenage mutant ninja turtles and played it completely straight. As I've said before that kinda was the joke. A serious comic book written around the most absurd of concepts. Then the FW Cartoon came along and let the Turtles be in on the joke, and we got a show that was very self-aware and constantly poked fun at the absurd aspects of its own universe. There's always some comedic edge to the Turtles. To totally remove it weakens the franchise.

My answer to that will always be "no." ZariusTwo has already said the point better than I ever could, but essentially to view the original Mirage comics as the one "true" iteration of TMNT is problematic. Because the difference between Batman and TMNT is that every decision regarding the future of the TMNT franchise has been taken by at least one of the original co-creators. Which means every cartoon, every movie and every comic related to the franchise is a valid interpretation. TMNT was not snatched out of the creators hands by a mainstream comics company, it has been managed by the people who created it. And, as someone else has already said, even the original comics series was intended as parody.

Personally, I have nothing against grim and gritty. I don't think that Mirage was actually that good at being grim and gritty, the strongest issues for me were the ones where other creators came in to try something a little different. But if you're holding out for some movie in future which is true to the source material (and you're talking about a relatively small amount of the source material here), I think you need to look at the last 25 years of this franchise and appreciate that the most successful aspects of it have owed more to the original cartoon than they have to the original comic. I'm sorry you don't like that, but look: the Mirage issues still exist. You can still read them. They haven't gone anywhere. You're not obliged to read new comics or watch new movies or new cartoons.

The one part of the TMNT/Batman comparison that rings true to me is the fact that people really enjoyed that Adam West series. Whilst it wasn't in the spirit of the comics, it didn't prevent Frank Miller and Alan Moore and Grant Morrison from writing "grim and gritty" Batman comics in the future, and it did make the iconography of Batman well known (i.e. you don't need to have seen the movies or the cartoons or comics to know that Batman has a fancy car and sometimes a sidekick called Robin, because thanks to the Adam West show, this is just something that everybody knows). Similarly with TMNT, whether there is ever a comic or movie which replicates the original Mirage comics largely depends on whether there is significant demand for one (I doubt it), but what we have now is a cartoon that appeals to a lot of people and a comic series which is somewhere between the Mirage series and the movies in terms of tone. Why that should offend fans of the original Mirage comics when it is sanctioned by creators is beyond me.

EDITED TO ADD: Obviously this post is not aimed at Vivi but at the OP and those who have expressed a similar point of view.

Modern Batman does the same thing. Guy dresses up like a bat and fights crime. Totally wacky and unbelievable.

The thing is though, Batman: Begins tried very hard to force it into the realm of believability, and they were able to do it with a combination of technological mumbo jumbo and a tight script. Everything Batman did seemed at least feasible, from your average movie-goer's point of view.

TMNT, on the other hand, can never do that. You can never make something like this any more serious than tongue-in-cheek.

The problem with calling the 1987 show the equivalent of Adam West Batman is that the subsequent incarnations of Batman didn't operate out of contempt for the Adam West show. They brought back some stuff from it, like Mr. Freeze, Barbara Gordon as Bat Girl, etc. By contrast, Peter Laird's show jettisoned everything from Fred Wolf, to the effect that all of the fans of it wanted a backlash and got it. Like it or not, they have the same right to be reactionaries as the Mirage fans.

Now personally, I would, in fact, like an incarnation where the turtles are willing to kill when necessarily, but as Zarius said, there is nothing good about a series where everyone is just a shallow amoral assassin; playing it straight with turtles might be a nice joke for some, but it doesn't turn it into fine literature, and it's telling that the first issue was just intended as a cheap gag, but once it started selling better than anticipated, the series gained depth. That's what really made it better than the Fred Wolf series; it had character development, continuity that extended decades, and ability to tell ethical stories; getting rid of all the Fred Wolf stuff is not necessary to maintain those virtues, and nor is retaining a lot of blood, and making everyone just another assassin runs counter to it.

Also, isn't placing this thread in the "Nick TMNT Cartoon Discussion" forum unnecessarily antagonistic?

I don't think the Mirage Turtles were soulless assassins. Didn't they have some kind of honor? Their only victims were the Foot who were murderers as well. They didn't go around killing innocent people or bumbling super villains. Hell, they were content with just hauling Baxter off the jail in issue 2 and not outright killing him.

A lot of people here must not read Mirage much because the turtles joke and goof around plenty in issues. Especially ones by Dan Berger, Michael Dooney and Kevin.

A lot has been said but instead of responding to it all I'll say us "boring" "pessimist" fans who truly enjoyed the comics don't have those anymore. Idw is no Mirage, not even Image. The buy out effectively ended the portions of the franchise I enjoy.

I don't want a blood bath I just want to see them written better. The turtles can be fun, soot is my favorite turtles film so clearly that's not an issue. It's the difference between a comedian and a rodeo clown to me. I don't fault the ot, its great for what it was, but it needed to evolve. This new series is not a step up. Yeah 2k3 isn't perfect either but its closer then this.

One day I may try to brave the new series again but I'll have to let the cynicism die down a bit.