What These Cartoons Did To Turtles

[Spitfire]

I was watching Batman: The Movie last night and it dawned on me, the 80's toon is the TMNT equivalent. See the Adam West series was so popular and wide spread it completely dwarfed the comics and changed the public perception on Batman for decades. It took Burton's film to change that and even it was taken with a heavy shot of that series. Begins was really the first serious true to source, in tone at least, Batman film. It only took over 40 years to get it.

I fear Turtles will suffer the same fate or worse will never be viewed as its source material is. This new series is a strong testament to that. I know for most this isn't an issue but it does suck for fans like myself who are tired of the pizza eating and surfer slang.

Anyways observation I found interesting. Discuss?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

I was watching Batman: The Movie last night and it dawned on me, the 80's toon is the TMNT equivalent. See the Adam West series was so popular and wide spread it completely dwarfed the comics and changed the public perception on Batman for decades. It took Burton's film to change that and even it was taken with a heavy shot of that series. Begins was really the first serious true to source, in tone at least, Batman film. It only took over 40 years to get it.

I fear Turtles will suffer the same fate or worse will never be viewed as its source material is. This new series is a strong testament to that. I know for most this isn't an issue but it does suck for fans like myself who are tired of the pizza eating and surfer slang.

Anyways observation I found interesting. Discuss?

I've been saying this for years. Every new widespread incarnation of the TMNT that seems to pop up... it's, well, it's a bit like Groundhog Day.

Let me plagiarize myself from another thread:

Alternately, I hate to think of what might happen if this movie is a box office smash and if the story is horrific.

With things like NT:TNM, the last movie, and probably this one as well... I find it's a bit like Groundhog Day. I don't mean the Groundhog Day movie, I mean Groundhog Day itself. What am I talking about, you ask?

We all know how it works. If the groundhog emerges from its burrow and all is well, that means spring is coming early; if it emerges from its burrow, sees its shadow, and goes back into its burrow... that means winter continues for another six weeks.

With TMNT, every additional mass media incarnation -- particularly the movies -- that come out that are ghastly, kid and toy-pandering debacles... each one of these keeps signifying another 5-10 years of pop culture continuing to believe that is the definitive Ninja Turtles, when it's anything but. And the clock just keeps being reset 5-10 years on this, over and over again.

[Jester]

it's been mentioned many times before Spit. Many fans are constantly waiting with baited breath for some sort TMNT Begins media to take the Turtles back to their roots. The "FW Turtles = Adam West Batman" analogy has been used before to add to the fan hopes that we will eventually see a more serious take on the Turtles.

[Oculus Orbus]

I find this issue extremely sad. The worst part is that it seems to be somehow accumulative, as every new incarnation seems to push the source material a bit further from the public's eye. I personally think that a franchise this big could be turn into many different incarnations with no harm to its identity (just like Batman's had Batman: The Animates Series in 1992 and Batman: The Brave And The Bold in 200, but it appears as if the FW cartoon is becoming more and more the source material for the new TMNT iterations, replacing the real one. This doesn't affect the use of characters and situations as much as it affects the overall tone of the writing, where we seem to be stucked with, as Spitfire put it, pizza eating and surfer slang.

Now, I find it easier for me to enjoy products like the Nick toon way better than the IDW run. After all, I grew up with the FW cartoon and I'm used to TMNT being a kid's show on TV, and Nickelodeon is doing a good job at that, in my opinion.

IDW, however, seems to be suffering from the same issues, and that's the worst part for me. I understand how they need to aim at a larger audience, and that has to tone down the stories somehow and utilize elements that are widely recognizable, but the way it's being done still carries the same portrayal of many characters. It's more an update of the FW cartoon than it is its own thing, and I hardly see any true trace of the source material in it.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. It's not a bad comic, it's just not the TMNT comic I expected it to be.

[Candy Kappa]

We need a TMNT equivalent to The Dark Knight Returns

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Jester

Many fans are constantly waiting with baited breath for some sort TMNT Begins media to take the Turtles back to their roots.

Unfortunately any hope of that probably died with the Viacom/Nickelodeon sale. Now, even if there was a director out there passionate about the source material enough to make a proper TMNT film as a passion project (as opposed to the way every TMNT movie to date has been made, which has begun with the studio, with execs saying, "We think a TMNT movie will be profitable at this juncture... how do we proceed?") it is unlikely that Viacom/Nick would allow any kind of a raw adaptation of the source material. It wouldn't happen until if and when there's another TMNT sale.

Damn it, if only Megan Ellison was a Mirage TMNT fan...

[oldmanwinters]

But... wasn't the first live-action movie the TMNT equivalent of Batman Begins?

It certainly took the franchise back to its roots. Drawing heavily from the original comics and proving that the TMNT could be portrayed in a realistic universe.

So... I think the cavalry may have already come, so to speak. At least it has if you're the type who preaches the gospel of ad fontes and desperately awaits the Second Coming.

EDIT:
But for myself, I say pimp out the Fred Wolf elements at every opportunity. Give me my live-action Technodrome!

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

But... wasn't the first live-action movie the TMNT equivalent of Batman Begins?

No. No, it was not.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Begins was really the first serious true to source, in tone at least, Batman film. It only took over 40 years to get it.

Mask of the Phantasm?

I know for most this isn't an issue but it does suck for fans like myself who are tired of the pizza eating and surfer slang.

Well then you're in luck. Other than making a big deal out of their first slice in the first episode, they only eat pizza casually (and enjoy other foods) and there is no surfer slang to be found in Nickelodeon's TMNT.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Damn it, if only Megan Ellison was a Mirage TMNT fan...

Unless he was lying, Jonathan Liebesman is a Mirage fan. So we'll see.

[Vivi]

I guess it comes down to how much it matters to you that the public perception sees the tmnt in the vein of the source material. Is it important that people understand so that our obsessions are validated? Or perhaps to get some real money invested in a 'true' adaption? Even if we do get the Nolan movies, they'll be just that - branches of a franchise. There are many solid branches that form the tmnt franchise, if anything it gives it strength.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Vivi

Even if we do get the Nolan movies, they'll be just that - branches of a franchise.

That's a vast understatement. Cartoons and comic books fly under the radar for the most part, theatrical films are a way bigger deal.

[CyberCubed]

If the new movie still has alien Turtles in it, its going to do far more damage than anything else will.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Mask of the Phantasm?

Not a bad point but really that film bombed and many more people saw Batman Forever and Batman and Robin which kept the public thinking Batman wasn't to be taken very seriously.

Well then you're in luck. Other than making a big deal out of their first slice in the first episode, they only eat pizza casually (and enjoy other foods) and there is no surfer slang to be found in Nickelodeon's TMNT.

No you're right. It has a new set of problems. Phrases like "Booyakasha", bad anime moments that completely break flow, and an overall spastic tone. Reminds me a bit of Ultimate Spider-man in that regard. I struggled to finish just one episode of that series and even being Turtles I kind of had the same issue with this one. It's not for me, not in the vain I'm talking about, and doing everything to keep the public perception that TMNT are goofy party animals who fight with slap stick. Not as bad as the OT in that regard but not doing any favors.

Unless he was lying, Jonathan Liebesman is a Mirage fan. So we'll see.

That talent-less hack could be the world's biggest TMNT fan with a tattoo of Eastman and Laird's autographs on his ass and it wouldn't matter. He's a terrible director and by all accounts I doubt even if they handed him a gold plated TMNT script he could do it any justice.

Yes I'm very cynical.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I've been saying this for years. Every new widespread incarnation of the TMNT that seems to pop up... it's, well, it's a bit like Groundhog Day.

Let me plagiarize myself from another thread:

Alternately, I hate to think of what might happen if this movie is a box office smash and if the story is horrific.

With things like NT:TNM, the last movie, and probably this one as well... I find it's a bit like Groundhog Day. I don't mean the Groundhog Day movie, I mean Groundhog Day itself. What am I talking about, you ask?

We all know how it works. If the groundhog emerges from its burrow and all is well, that means spring is coming early; if it emerges from its burrow, sees its shadow, and goes back into its burrow... that means winter continues for another six weeks.

With TMNT, every additional mass media incarnation -- particularly the movies -- that come out that are ghastly, kid and toy-pandering debacles... each one of these keeps signifying another 5-10 years of pop culture continuing to believe that is the definitive Ninja Turtles, when it's anything but. And the clock just keeps being reset 5-10 years on this, over and over again.

Oh sod off you complete pessimist bore. Your insistence that the franchise follow a grim and gritty no-nonsense vision boarders on pure forum spam these days. The Turtles are FAR better off being pop culture kids icons and the shows are all critically acclaimed.

You and your kind have got your comics, read them and be content, the rest of the world eats up the Turtles in their more commercially viable forms. At this rate, your stubborn negative attitude will leave you resenting the Turtles more and more, leaving very little love for them. Not the calling card of a true fan is it? But then, when have you EVER been a true fan? You like one vision and to hell with the rest, you are not broad, you are not open, and thus you are completly out of touch with how commercial enterrprises run, and out of touch with worldly perception.

Maybe you're just way too old for TMNT, ever think about that? You could do us all a favour and go away now, before I destroy you any further with an acutal concept of how the real world operates

[chrisdude]

I feel like if they keep trying to revive the turtles in new, fresh ways, they've gotta get around to a more direct adaptation eventually.

But people loved the Adam West Batman series. And people loved the Tim Burton Batman movies. Same goes for the FW cartoon and the live-action movies.

I mean, a comic adaptation would be cool to many of us, but of course that's never going to be what most people expect when they hear "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles," and giving them something different is a risk.

We're lucky we ever got The Dark Knight or The Dark Knight Rises, because Batman Begins made less money than Superman Returns (it just didn't cost as much to make). It was financially successful, but it was no smash. It turned out to be fantastic as a series, but like I said, we're lucky it even had a chance to grow.

But hey, as successful as the Nick series is, gritty and dark might still be in style. Oddly enough, The Dark Knight trilogy and the Avengers series took opposite sides of that, at the same time, and both worked...

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

I fear Turtles will suffer the same fate or worse will never be viewed as its source material is. This new series is a strong testament to that. I know for most this isn't an issue but it does suck for fans like myself who are tired of the pizza eating and surfer slang.

Anyways observation I found interesting. Discuss?

The Nick toons seems to be very faithful to it's roots imo.

I like that they eat pizzas again (something lacking in the 2k3 version). And surfer slang, you mean Cowabunga (equivalent of booyakasha nowadays)?

Tired of them? Not me. That's their trademark.
And it's fun.

[ZariusTwo]

I coudnt give a rat's backside for "grim and gritty", it's a creativly bankrupt genre at the worst of times and it doesnt automatically make anything "better".

The very first issue of TMNT is objectivly terrible. It is just mindless violence with nice pictures and no plot to speak of. Turtles have never been all that interesting with the dark tone, it's a ridiculous premise to even take seriously, so why not have be all cartoonish? That's what it lends itself best to, and why every TMNT show has had a good long run. It is a complete bore when played straight. That's why the first movie blended the two worlds, the slapstick and the seriousness, together, and why the 2003 show did it's best to interject humor, it wasnt all that succesful with it, but it needed variety.

People who want "dark, dark dark" have no idea what they want in the end, they are always looking at the world through a glum lens thinking nothing light and soft can be any good, they see it as an affront to the reality they cling to, in truth they are insecure about themselves and embarrased by thier childhood innocense. The movie and 4Kids cartoon are the closest to reflecting their visions, and yet still they are not satisfied because they're not "gritty enough". They want the Turtles decapitating people, they want them sticking their katanas in people's guts, they want them swearing, they want them to be anarchists. I ask of you people...how does that make for interesting or compelling reading or enjoyable television that appeals to the masses? It's completly and totally one-note and you know it

[NinjaMan]

I love me some fun loving Turtles. the FW and Nick series are my favorites by far. And the fact that I can watch them with my 3 year old since they aren't dark and gritty is a plus. Heck, I like the Avengers movie much more than the latest Nolan Batman movie. In fact, I didn't like his last film at all.

[zodiac brave]

i think the idea of movie 1 being "batman begins" is a valid point. granted, when it was done, it was well-received but the direction the film franchise went from there was, sadly, a victim of the times. it wasn't how it is now, where nolan did the first bat-flick and the studios trusted him enough to hand him the reigns to the franchise. back then, the movie was a success and all the studio's saw were dollar signs. they were so desperate to milk the cash cow that, for fear of losing their golden goose, they ended up watering it down to try and pander to the widest audience, losing the core of what made that first movie so good. (sorry for mixing farm-animal metaphors).

[zodiac brave]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I coudnt give a rat's backside for "grim and gritty", it's a creativly bankrupt genre at the worst of times and it doesnt automatically make anything "better".

The very first issue of TMNT is objectivly terrible. It is just mindless violence with nice pictures and no plot to speak of. Turtles have never been all that interesting with the dark tone, it's a ridiculous premise to even take seriously, so why not have be all cartoonish? That's what it lends itself best to, and why every TMNT show has had a good long run. It is a complete bore when played straight. That's why the first movie blended the two worlds, the slapstick and the seriousness, together, and why the 2003 show did it's best to interject humor, it wasnt all that succesful with it, but it needed variety.

People who want "dark, dark dark" have no idea what they want in the end, they are always looking at the world through a glum lens thinking nothing light and soft can be any good, they see it as an affront to the reality they cling to, in truth they are insecure about themselves and embarrased by thier childhood innocense. The movie and 4Kids cartoon are the closest to reflecting their visions, and yet still they are not satisfied because they're not "gritty enough". They want the Turtles decapitating people, they want them sticking their katanas in people's guts, they want them swearing, they want them to be anarchists. I ask of you people...how does that make for interesting or compelling reading or enjoyable television that appeals to the masses? It's completly and totally one-note and you know it

as much as you railed against andrew's point of view (insultingly and in an incredibly immature fashion, i might add) you sound like the exact opposite of his argument. which is just as silly and hard to take seriously.

at least andrew poses his thoughts level-headedly.