Why do people still think calling someone gay is an insult?
 

I use another forum, based around soccer. And on that forum casual racism and homophobia seems to be the norm. It's a much rougher forum than this, and essentially has no moderating. It's a free-for-all.

Most of the people who indulge in this sort of thing are amongst my 'friends' on there. And honestly, even though they're knowledgeable guys for the most part, sometimes I just wanna tell them to quit it with the prejudice. But I just can't be bothered arguing about it.

They often say these things in defence of other peoples' attacks on me. I don't ask for help and I can take care of myself, but I'm one of the older users there (in age, I'm actually relatively new to the site i.e. just over a year) and am respected as a knowledgeable poster, so it's natural that some people will leap to my defence. For example, there are a few people there who have a severe dislike of me because I am critical of a certain player (this player attracts legions of creepy, sycophantic fanboys generally in football, the sort who think he's above criticism). These people are clearly fanboys of this player, and truth be told most of them are pretty clueless about football generally. They clearly have some sort of mancrush on the guy, and they do deserve to be treated with contempt for attacking others and talking balls, but I still feel the constant 'queer' and 'f a g g o t' accusations are uncalled for. I mean they might well have a liking for men (this footballer seems to attract the androgynous type) but I don't see the problem with that. The far bigger issue is how clueless they are about the game, as well as their blind devotion to someone who doesn't know they exist and wouldn't p!ss on them if they were on fire.

So yeah, I'm using anecdotal evidence to express my dislike for racism and homophobia on the internet. I don't care if these people are gay or in the closet. What I do care about is that - if they do have a gay crush or a mancrush on this player - it's leading them to overrate and exaggerate his abilities.

Other comments on this site include attacks on Mexicans and claims that Polish people living in Britain are absolute scum. And the worrying thing is that many of the people who indulge in this sh!t are actually very intelligent people and, as already stated, get on very well with me. It's a bit like stormfront but more jokey, because I get the feeling that some of these people are playing up for the cameras, so to speak.

So, I ask again - why do people think being called gay is some sort of insult? If someone called me a 'homo' or a 'f a g g ot' I'd just laugh at them as I know I'm straight. And even if I was gay - so what?

People are too sensitive.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

Short, clear and to the point. I like it. Generally you're right, although you should also listen to Baz Luhrmann's words in the song "Sunscreen". He talks about paying attention to compliments and forgetting the insults, and if we achieve this to tell him how.

To be fair, racism and homophobia is way beyond the point of 'just being sensitive', given that these groups have been discriminated against throughout history.

Probably because people also use the word to mean "stupid".

To me, it's sorta like the "n-word". I don't use it and hate hearing it because of the negativity and hatred behind it and how it was used to make us feel inferior. A lot of older people hate hearing younger generations using such a term because it's degrading and imo, every time we use it, we're degrading ourselves...but yeah, that's how I feel about it.

I forgot you were black - I hope this doesn't bring to the surface too many unhappy memories :-?

Lots of blacks think that using the 'n' word is empowering - a way to take control of it all. Like when women call themselves 'sluts' to celebrate rightly enjoying their sexuality.

I didn't know people used 'gay' as another term for stupid either. I've only seen that happen very rarely, and clearly by very immature and silly young people who can barely string a coherent sentence together - a totally different set to the intelligent people I reference in the original post.

Ever since I was in middle school kids always said things like, "That's gay" to say something was stupid or dumb.

If you liked a TV show they didn't like, they would say, "That TV show is so gay, why do you watch it?"

Its just a derogatory word dating back unconciously to homophobia.

Yeah but those people are morons. I'm making the distinction between them and some very savvy, articulate people who find it funny to call people queers and the n word.

My coworker, in his mid to late 40s uses "gay" to mean stupid. He's a smart guy too...I don't think it truly matters.

Might be an isolated case. I've never really come across smart, mature people who use gay as a way of calling someone an idiot. But I might be wrong.

I've been mostly hearing 'gay' as a term for 'idiot' or 'stupid.' The 'F word' seems to be an insult too, but mostly done by straight males towards other straight males (especially when they are acting irritating) not usually at a gay person though. This also is coming to mean 'idiot.'

As for 'gay' it doesn't have it's roots in a gay-hating sense, it has roots in that it used to mean 'merry.' The Flintstones had the 'Have a gay old time' in it's theme song.

The 'n' word used to be another word that meant 'in a stupid manner,' especially once you added the letters 'dly.' I don't know how it came to be an insulting word towards blacks, unless it evolved through another word that meant 'black.'

Words seem to be ever evolving, especially in the English language. :)

Its hard to believe "selfie" is actually going to be an official word added to the dictionary thanks to teenagers and tumblr people who take pics of themselves with their phones.

Thanks for another informative post. They are always appreciated.

I still don't get that. Anyone who takes a photo of themselves with a digital camera is surely taking a 'selife'? So why does it seem to be a new word? Did it come about with the rise of the tablet?

The world is a very, very strange place.

A lot of people are just homophobic and know that they hate it if someone insinuates that they are anything less than the most heterosexual alpha male on the planet. So they in turn throw around the homophobic insults when they want to get under the skin of another insecure person with that same mindset.

But there is also a huge contingent of people that are not truly homophobic but still throw these terms around just out of sheer force of habit. There is zero homophobic intent behind their use of "gay" or "***" in a demeaning way. It's just something they heard a lot when they were little kids and began using it themselves. Over time it just becomes so second nature that it's difficult to break the habit. I've even met gay people that see something they think is stupid and go, "That's gay." or if someone is annoying them they will drop the, "Stop being a ***." because they too became so accustomed to saying it that it just gets blurted out when they're not really thinking.

My friends and I all started using these words as insults when we were kids long before we ever even knew that homosexuality existed. We were probably throwing them around along with all of our other fun little expletives for a solid year or two before we ever found out the original meaning of them. We legitimately just thought they were another version of "dumb" or "lame". The same as asshole or bitch or whatever else. Once we became aware of what they actually meant we would still use the words in the same way we always did, but if we thought someone may actually be gay we wouldn't say stuff like that to them because we never wanted to actually hurt anybody.

As I got older and more mature I cut the use of those words out of my vocabulary because as you get older and wiser you realize the kind of damage that does when a group of teenagers are all hanging out calling each other these words meanwhile the one kid in the closet is hearing this and actually being affected by it in a very negative and unfortunate way. It's the kind of thing where you wish you could go back in time and smack the younger you and point all of this stuff out.

So while I no longer say these kinds of things I also don't instantly vilify people for saying things like that off the cuff or in moments of frustration. You have to judge it on a case by case basis and determine the intent.

Yes, "gay" did and still does mean merry or happy, but people barely use it now in that context because it is associated with homosexual men. And don't go asking for a *** (cigarette) in the US because... well, you probably already know. It's the same with "spaz" (from "spastic") which is a fairly horrible abuse term here in the UK (in the same way Americans love to use "gay") but it has no social stigma in the US.

That stemmed from a TV program called Blue Peter occasionally featuring a mentally disabled patient called Joey Deacon in the early 80s who was a prominent promotional figure for the Spastic Society in the UK. Cue the kids around the playground using the words "spaz" and "Joey" to shout at each other. Eventually the Spastic Society changed its name to SCOPE in response, which didn't alter much; now the kids call each other "scopers" instead! Which isn't great for my brother's girlfriend when she was younger, as her name is S.Cope. I kid you not...

This is also why poor Tiger Woods got caught out one year playing at the British Open golf tournament, commented he's played like a spaz in one of his rounds and the media here was up in arms.

Playing online via XBox, and sometimes catching the high pitched rants from kids whose balls haven't dropped yet and are too young to be playing the games in question, then the most popular terms I hear as abuse are "jew", the n-word, "f**", "queer" and "homo". Evidently they are nervous about their own masculinity! :lol:

When they've discovered they have a Limey in their mix (ie. me), then the most popular insults tend to be regarding drinking tea, eating crumpets, and reading Harry Potter. WTF? How are those cusses? :P

In the same way that when a group of Brits find an American in their midst on Xbox Live the words "9/11", "World Trade Center" and "McDonalds" get repeated ad nauseam.

Well, this is a very interesting topic, Dave. I think it's because people are very sensitive and may get offended easily if you say something like that. If someone were to call me gay or whatever, I'd just say, "No, I'm straight, but thanks anyway." I used to use the term "gay" to mean stupid because I was watching South Park and they would use that on there. I don't do it in public at all because I know better than that, but if I want to say it in the privacy of my own home, I'm going to. I also have no qualms about calling someone retarded if I feel that they're doing something stupid that they should have the common sense to know not to do that thing. I called my sister retarded for going back to her loser of a husband because she should have had the common sense not to do that. Again, I'd never say it in a public place unless I felt the need to, and even then, I'd do my best to be discreet about it. But then again, why should I? If I offend someone, then, yes, I'll apologize to them, but we've become such a PC society that we can't really express ourselves the way we want to.

I'm sure people will take this the wrong way, but that's the way I feel. It's not like I go around making fun of mentally handicapped people or anything like that, but if someone's acting in a manner where they should have the common sense to know better and they're of sound mind and body to KNOW this, then I'm going to call them retarded.

People use gay as an insult because to be gay it means you're "less than a man." Those same people are likely to use gendered slurs to also indicate weakness. Anything that attributes itself to something other than Strong Male is therefore weak and worthy of mockery.

You'll see it on here...constantly.
If it's something women/girls like, then it must be bad.
And since gay men like men, something women/girls are supposed to like, it must be "less than."

Well not in public anyway.

I think you misunderstood me. I meant if someone is doing something stupid to where they should know better than to do it, then I'm going to call them out on it and say they're being retarded. I meant that I don't go around making fun of people who have Tourette's or who are mentally handicapped because that is wrong. But if one of my family members or friends is doing something that I deem as retarded in that they should know better than to do it, I'm going to call them out on it.

I also hate the double standards when it comes to "gay" or the N word. If gays can call each other queers and all of those other words, then why is it wrong for anyone else to do it? Same goes with the N word. It makes no sense to me.

I'm not misunderstanding you.

You compare people making life choices you wouldn't were you in their place to people who are mentally handicapped, and use a slur to do it. But only in private, where no one can call you out on it.

If we lived in a fair world you'd be right about that whole double standard language thing, but we don't. We live in a world of double standards, and what you're trying to pass off as an equal thing, isn't. It's a false equivalency.

Yeah, so? To me, if you make a choice that's dumb, you are acting like a mentally handicapped person because some mentally handicapped people don't have the mental capacity to know better about some things due to their disabilities. On the other hand, someone who does have the mental capacity to know better and yet still does something stupid anyway because they just don't have plain common sense should be defined as retarded because they aren't using their heads.

Perfect example: My dad was going to microwave a sandwich from Wendy's Mom had gotten him, and he wanted to use the actual container the sandwich came in and put it in the microwave. I told him that it would be better to use a plate since there's no guarantee that it wouldn't start a fire, and I said, "Now, that sounds like a retarded idea to put that container in there, doesn't it?" He agreed with me but used the excuse that they used to do it at the mill where he worked all of the time. I said, "I don't care, it's still a dumb idea, and I don't want the house to go up in flames because of your retarded idea."

What I say in the privacy of my own home is my business and no one else's. I'll say whatever the hell I want when I'm not in public. If I think something is retarded, I'm going to say so.

Also, I'm of short stature and used to be called a midget. When I was younger, it offended me, but as I've gotten older, I've learned to not be offended by it anymore. If someone were to call me a midget today, I'd say, "And proud of it." Why? Because I don't let things like that bother me. People need to stop being so damn sensitive about things.

You sound awfully tetchy for someone preaching to others how they shouldn't be offended by things. Almost like you're offended to be called out for bringing your private use of slurs into a public forum.

If it's not our business, don't tell us about it.
That way it's a lot harder for us to call you out on your bigoted choice of words.

No, I'm just saying that I can say what I want in the privacy of my own home. I'm not saying it in public and I'm not going to go out and point at a mentally handicapped person and say, "Hey, look at that retarded person." I've already said my piece. If you don't agree with it, that's fine, but you can't tell me what to do and what to say. I'm sick of the PC people in this world like you who act like we can't say what we want and call people out for their stupidity. If I see a news story about someone who does something stupid, I'm going to say, "Man, that person is so retarded. He should know better than that." That's it.

It's not that I hate mentally handicapped people or anything like that. I feel for those people truly for what they have to go through every day and applaud their courage for having the strength to still go out and do things if they can. But I hate people who should know better doing stupid things, and I feel that they are mentally handicapped because they aren't using their brain when they should know better. That's all I'm saying. You don't have to like what I say, and I'm not asking you to. But that's the way I feel.

In reference to the 'spaz' thing, Jester and I had that debate ages ago. I told him I hated hearing Mikey using the word in the original film. Of course I didn't know it was a more innocent term in the States. He pointed that out but I tried to save face by saying it was made for consumption in international markets, so should have been sensitive to that. He said that the US is the home of the turtles, and the property should reflect what happens in that home.

At the end of a major argument we made up, and I accepted his POV.

Thank you all for all of your insightful posts. I have enjoyed reading 'em.

[

You're welcome :)

But if that is true, why don't they go for the gusto and start calling them 'b****' and 'p**sy' far more often? That takes away any sort of male element and goes into the lowest tier of all, which is women.

Even in some older societies a thousand or so years ago where having sexual male-male relationships was considered 'good,' being a woman was considered inferior. Ever hear of the saying "Boys for pleasure, men for companionship/love, and women for breeding stock." Being with a man was considered preferable because it was a relationship with another equal, instead of being with a woman because they were considered inferior. (I'm afraid of looking up that quote for more information, because at times I've seen my browser brings up some pretty unsavory images. I've had it happen with Internet Explorer before when I tried to look up 'Topless Robot' (a nerd site) and it would also bring up pictures of topless women along with it. So I am super leery.)

I think in Thailand they aren't hung up over non sexual male-male affection (although being homosexual is forbidden there I believe) and there is even very strong non sexual male-male affection to the point where you'll see men caressing and holding their male friends, and maybe even giving them a kiss (although it's not sexual nor is it a make out kiss.) I was shocked when I read about it, the men there and boys are so at ease with each other that I'm wondering if the Western male hang up over displaying too much affection towards each other is nothing short of pathological. The older societies (think Biblical times) also seemed to have a lot of this degree of non sexual affection, even as we in modern Western societies tend to think of that degree of male affection only coming with a sexual component. The way David (if I'm remembering correctly) considers his male companion (he loved him very deeply) would be considered homosexual in modern society, even though this love wasn't a sexual one.

By this older way of doing things, (and Thailand) modern Western men are extremely isolated towards each other, only allowing such closeness when it involves gay sex and relationships.

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Log...23_2874962.jpg

Can't believe nobody beat me to it already, hehehe.

Short answer to the question at hand - some people are total sh*tlords. Long answer - homophobia and absurd insecurities about what constitutes masculinity ingrained by Western society's cultural and religious norms.

FWIW, if someone says "Yo, penny, ain't see ya round in a while - how's my favourite queer?", I'm not going to take offense. If, on the other hand, someone says "f*ck off back to Tumblr, queer", then I'm going to start itching to punch someone in the face. To me, it's the feeling behind the word - if someone uses a word to make you feel less-than, you're going to get a negative reaction, I don't care who you are.

If someone wants to reclaim a negative word to describe themselves, like the 'n' word or the 't' word, that's their prerogative. Empowerment and self love can take many forms. However, I would never assume that it's ok for me to do so. Why? Because those words have history, and it's absolutely not my place to attempt to reclaim that slur. Because as a white person, if I use the 'n' word, that word still has the power to dehumanize. There is no need for me to ever use those kinds of words to describe someone, so I don't. To me, it's a question of respect. I have a f*ckload of white privilege as it is - I'm not about to pout because I can't use a word which I have no desire to use anyway.

Back to the topic of gay slurs, a past study by the American Psychological Association has shown that homophobic men are more likely to become aroused by gay material than non-homophobic men. The study also shows that the homophobes will not be aware of their physical arousal. So if I encounter someone who tends to use gay slurs as their go-to response for displaying contempt, I tend to draw a few conclusions about where their true proclivities actually lie and dismiss them as the pathetic little closet-cases they are.

Citations/sources: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

http://elitedaily.com/news/world/hom...orn-surprised/

So...it's only the PC people of the world who can't call out others for their stupidity. Good to know.

You don't hear guys using those words as slurs against each other? Because I sure as heck do...all the time


I don't know that I'd go so far as to say ancient societies considered same sex male relationships "good" so much as they were tolerated so long as they adhered to the social contract of the day. A man of high standing could have relations with a man of lower standing, and not lose face. Where as that man of lower standing depending on his age could face a whole lot of trouble.

Okay, I looked up the word "retard" in my American Collegiate Dictionary and these are the definitions I found:

1. A disparaging remark to describe a mentally handicapped person.

2. One who is foolish or socially inept.

So, citing the examples I used in my previous posts, I'm using the second definition of someone who is foolish or a foolish idea. An example would be how I feel that Obamacare is retarded. In this context, I'm saying that the whole policy is foolish, which it is, IMHO. As I've said, it all goes into context, and that's what Penny is saying too. It goes by how you say it and what you mean by it. You certainly by all means can disagree with me on this, but I know I'm right in this instance.

Penny, I agree with you about the N word and probably wouldn't use it myself because it IS a derogatory word and has been for decades dating back to slavery. But I also agree that if others want to use the word as their own, then they can. My problem is when certain people get offended when a white person says it, even if they mean it as a term of endearment for their friend or whatever. I just don't see why they have to get offended by it when they know people of their own race are using it themselves.

I've got a learning disability, I grew up being called retarded for not getting things at the same pace other people did, I got called retarded for needing the assistance of a special ed teacher, and I got called retarded for walking into the special ed classes. When I hear someone call something retarded, I can't help but associate that word with the things I and my other special ed friends were called. We learn to associate that word with things people don't like, and it ruins our self-esteem.

In regards to homophobic insults, I think the discussion has already mentioned the things I'm about to say [but I only skimmed since I don't really want to read the comments of homophobes right now and I know this forum's got them] but I'll offer an explanation anyway:

Gay is perceived as an insult because it's considered bad to be gay. Why is it considered bad to be gay? Because gay men like other men. Who else likes men? Women. And women are also considered bad. Gay men are compared to women. This is the leap of logic society takes. I'm not saying I support it, since, well, as a gay man, I'd sure hope I didn't.

Hm, I just can't bring my self to use words like "retarded", "gay", or the "n-word".

To me gay means "happy" or "homosexual". I personally feel that's the only way it should be used in these contexts. I hate when people use it in the context of something being stupid. To me, it's like saying being gay (homosexual) is being stupid. Being a homosexual is being stupid. It just seems insulting.

I feel the same way about the word "retarded" or some variation. I would never use it in the way most do, "stupid". I can't bring myself to say it because I think of people who may have a learning disability or who are "mentally challenged". They aren't stupid. I guess I just feel it's insulting.

I already expressed how I feel about the "n-word" and why I don't use it. I think it's incredibly demeaning and stupid and hate how we blacks use it. If we want to be taken seriously by others, we need to start by not referring to ourselves in such a way. It's also a double-standard. Whites should be able to use it too. The whole thing is pointless and dumb. Blacks use it, "it's cool"...any other race uses it, in the same context, "RACIST!!" My race has a lot of issues we're still dealing with, but that's for another discussion.

Why resist the world as if you have control over it, people will always find a new name, label, category. There is nothing really one can do. Just try to change your reaction to that fact, resisting it and try to change other people will make it worse for yourself.

Why should you care about the masses?

Seems like the word gay changes meaning a lot according to some articles I read.

Often times, I don't think it's homophobia on the person that uses the word, "gay," to insult someone. It's that the person receiving the insult is very sensitive to the word, which is why it's an effective way to insult many people.

I'm not saying that using the word, "gay," to insult someone is right...it's not. But, the effectiveness of the word, being used as an insult, relies on the person receiving the insult.

So, people need to know the history and the meanings of words, to many people, or risk receiving a black-eye. People that don't, are ignorant and indirectly offend people if the word triggers hurtful meanings.

I have a couple of friends that are gay and they claim to have no problem with the term's "alternate" meanings/usages. They understand where someone is coming from through context. Its pretty easy to tell the differance between someone spewing hate versus someone making a poor word choice to describe how silly/dumb something is. With that said, we all know that we live in a sensitive, politically correct world and many believe that improper use of the word "gay" only keeps the hate and intolerance alive and well. This is why I try not to use the term incorrectly. Its just easier that way.

Thanks for all your comments.

About the site I mention in my OP, it's still going on. Just seen some of Germany's fooballers described as 'Nazi SS Hitler Youth posterboys'. I dislike the German National team as well (for football reasons) but it really is very over the top.

I imagine I'll be run over for this, but whatever. Just trade insults back.

Put it this way. There's nothing wrong with being a woman, but if you're a man, would you like being called one?

Well, it depends. Some people feel they're a woman trapped inside of a man's body. Although, I see it as a guy that is more feminine, not necessarily a guy that's a woman...there's a difference between sex vs gender. Sex is related to a person's biological identity and gender is related to a person's social identity.

Well, I have a relative and a coworker that like to use the Gay word just to get a rise out of people. My relative was recently watching Captain America 2, and she called Steve was gay because he dressed in tights and wasn't trying to screw the red head he was with, and then at work, I was actually looking at some TMNT gifs on my phone with my cousin when a coworker came by, and she grabbed the phone from me, and was looking at them, and was like, "what are these, are they gay with them hugging eachother like that?" I just grabbed the phone from her and ignored her, since she tends to be an idiot and it's just not worth the aggravation. I ignored my aunt too, to think of it. I guess it's the only way to handle numbskulls.

I don't condone assault and I would never hit someone for real, but people like that sure do tempt me.

Because, you don't want to escalate things and make it worse, especially, when you're not skilled in fighting because trading insults often end up with fighting.