TMNT II - thoughts on it?
 

I just now re-watched TMNT II and it really hit me for the first time that I actually DON'T like this movie.

There's so many things I find wrong with it.

- Paige Turco replacing the perfect Judith Hoag as April
- No Casey Jones...they treat the character like he never even existed in the first place.
- Much less realistic turtle costumes
- Shredder's return - I didn't buy it that anyone would survive Shredder's fall...especially since he got CRUSHED in that garbage truck too.
- Tokka and Razor were as lame as Hell. Why them and not good old Bebop and Rocksteady?
- Keno was really, REALLY annoying.
- Excrucatingly lame script. The TMNTs dancing in a Night Club with, of all people, Vanilla Ice? The same Ninja Turtles who in the first movie were all for completely secrecy of their existance fighting and dancing openly in front of dozens of people and making no attempts to conceal themselves or anything and even worse, Splinter finding it FUNNY when he learns of it? Bah.
- Horrible cartoon sound effects.
- Shockingly cheesy and goofy, and not good in the old toon way but stupid and (in fear of being repetitive with my wording), lame.

I am so tempted to just throw out my tapes of TMNT II and the even worse TMNT III. The first movie is a genuis work of art that's to be treasured for a life time...but the sequels? What a big steaming pile of *bleep*. Never should've been made or at least should've been handled with the same quality, care and respect the first movie got.

What's everyone's thoughts?

My toughts exactly. You forgot the total lack of weapons. Most popular theory is that parents complained about the first movie, saying it's to violent etc. So New Line decided to do this cheesy kids film instead of a real sequel.

I agree with all that you said NinjaGirl. Except one thing...
I liked Tokka and Rahzar.

Anyway, isn't it weird that it took so long to notice how bad TMNT 2 was?
I never liked TMNT 3 from the start but, I liked TMNT 2 until, the first time I saw it after the TMNT's disappearance.

Oh yeah the lack of weapon's is another thing to add to the list. Also the less realistic and cartoony like fighting. Like the opening scene in the toy store for example.

The martial arts in the first flick were awesome...here? Forget it.

Well I too liked the movie as a kid, I guess it works for children.

I Guess.
That's about the only way I could figure it.

I just wanted to make an attempt to defend the sequal here by stating my feelings towards what NinjaGirl said before.

"Paige Turco replacing the perfect Judith Hoag as April."

It's not the first time an actor has been replaced. Judith obviously wasn't available for the part. It threw me for a loop back in the day, but now that I'm old enough to understand, it doesn't phase me.

"No Casey Jones...they treat the character like he never even existed in the first place."

I read somewhere that he reminded people too much of Jason from Friday the 13th. It is ashame they had to forget about him like that.

"Much less realistic turtle costumes"

I liked the costumes. They were just as realistic as the ones from the first flick.

"Shredder's return - I didn't buy it that anyone would survive Shredder's fall...especially since he got CRUSHED in that garbage truck too."

People do **** like that all the time in movies. It's basic movie logic, really.

"Tokka and Rahzar were as lame as Hell. Why them and not good old Bebop and Rocksteady?"

Eastman and Laird didn't want that, so they settled to have 2 different bumbling mutants. Atleast Tokka and Rahzar put up a much better fight against the turtles than Rocksteady and Bebop.

"Keno was really, REALLY annoying."

This I agree with. He barely had any real purpose for being in the movie.

"Excrucatingly lame script. The TMNTs dancing in a Night Club with, of all people, Vanilla Ice? The same Ninja Turtles who in the first movie were all for completely secrecy of their existance fighting and dancing openly in front of dozens of people and making no attempts to conceal themselves or anything and even worse, Splinter finding it FUNNY when he learns of it?"

Ummm.... no comment.

"Horrible cartoon sound effects."

Where were there any cartoonish sound effects?

Gonna have to disagree with ya Jeph, the costumes in the 2nd had much brighter colors and uh..Bug eyes. Especially Donatello.

Another gripe to add to the list..

Leonardo is struggling to break free of a net..When he's got two swords strapped to his back. What, were they afraid kids world wide were gonna start attacking nets?

GEEZ, Jeph! we're having so much fun bitching and you go and ruin it for us!! :x
I'm Just Kidding! :lol:
Your opinions are as valid as ours! :)

I can't believe the filmmakers were dumb enough to listen to the focus groups on that one! (or anything else!):lol:

I would have to agree with every thing you said, but I also liked tokka and rahzor. I dont know why though.

That's the best part about these discussions. The people who liked a certain flick/show defend it against the people who bitch about it.

Maybe he couldn't reach his swords, cause there wasn't enough elbow room. I remember the same thing happening in an ep of the toon.

I also loved the flick as a kid, not so much now. I still don't despise it or anything.

I thought Paige was a lot hotter, and that's about my only criteria, so I liked her April a lot better.

THAT pissed me off.

Never really noticed.

It wan't THAT unrealistic. B'sides, not a lot of kids (which were like 90% of the TMNT audience at that time) would have cared about the movie if Shredder wasn't in it. Kinda like how nobody cared when TMNT III came out.

Yeah, that was pretty dumb I thought. If you were gonna use dumb mutants, at least use dumb mutants people would recognize. The only thing I can figure is "new characters = new toys to sell".

I'll drink to that. I'd trade him for Casey in a heartbeat. All the martial arts kicks in the world won't do jack against a pissed-off psycho with a hockey stick.

Without a doubt THE worst part of the entire TMNT Trilogy. Again, it was all about the kids at that point.

Again, never noticed.

That's open to interpretation. I thought it was plausible all the way up until the dumb stuff at the end with the nightclub.

However, I can look past all the bad because it all lead up to.... KEVIN F*CKING NASH as Super-Shredder, arguably THE best thing out of all the Turtles movies. If it's Nash, it's gold. Especially since his part in the film got him more attention from the suits at WCW, who gave him more screen time, so he could jump to the WWF as Shawn Michaels' bodyguard and eventually win the World Title, then jump to WCW and form the nWo, then win their World Title, then jump back to the WWF, get a haircut and have a part in the new Punisher movie.

So as you can see, the most important events in the history of the universe all begin - and end - with Kevin Nash. His very prescence saves TMNT II from being ALL bad, since nothing with the Nash Seal of Approval could ever be truly bad.

As for TMNT III, I thought it was more corny and boring than truly bad. The costumes were pretty cheap, though. Casey being back was good, but it loses points because he didn't fight and Nash wasn't involved.

I liked the concept of Super Shredder, but NOT the execution.

It should have been more mystical and supernatural instead of a mutation and turning into a berzerker muscle-head isn't very "super" to me. He should have attained more agility and not lost his intelligence and maybe shoot energy projectiles!

But it still should have been Kevin Nash.

I've long maintained that TMNT II should have ended with Super-Shredder no-selling everything the Turtles threw at him, then Jackknife Power Bombing each of them off the pier and into the water. He would then take off his mask and talk to the audience in a "shoot" for the next fifteen minutes, telling them that "Wolfpac in the house!" and saying "the only thing real about this business is the money", then going off in a tangent and making insider references nobody in the audience understands and shout-outs to Shawn Michaels. He proceeds to talk straight through the credits until he is cut off by the screen fading to black. Then the letters "n-W-o" would appear in red spraypaint across the screen as "Don't Turn your Back on the Wolfpac" played.

Cuz if you're gonna use Kevin Nash, you just gotta let him cut loose, ya nah'mean?

Well, that would be better than the ending they used!

It would also have been brilliant if bebop and Rocksteady were played by Sean Waltman(Syxx/X-pac) and Scott Hall. :lol:

They should have toned it down even further removing ALL violence from the movie, then they should have put Kala the neutrino in it, and have a REALLY explicit "adult" scene between her and Mike just to get reactions from the parents groups!

Personally, I liked #2 the best out of all three movies (I liked all three btw). C'mon guys, it WAS after all made mainly for kids, (heh, maybe that's why I like it, at age 15 I'm still considered a kid right... RIGHT?!) I agree Keno was annoying, and the lack of weapons was kinda lame. The way I look at it is this: if you want a good story with a lite sprinkling of humor and some good old fashion action: watch the first movie. If you want something to laugh at and have a good time with humourous cartoony action (gotta love that opening sequecne when they're using the yo-yo's and other toys) and stuff: watch the second movie (I always like to watch it when I'm feeling sad or something). If you want lots of action, a pretty good story, and some humor, watch the third movie. Tokka and Rahzar I thought were cool, and I think the voices for Raph and Don were best in the second movie. The way I look at it is, you hafta watch Secret of the Ooze with a younger person's view in mind, kick back and just enjoy the witty antics of four pizza loving turtles! :D

....and Kevin Nash.




I still say a Neutrino sex-scene would have saved that movie!

LOL!!! I just got your nWo joke, GK. I was sittin' here gettin' riled up cuz Bebop is black. If X-Pac was in that movie, that would've definitely earned it 1000 cool points in my head.

While I agree that the second film wasn't nearly as great as the first (Sheer novelty, I think), I thought it was cute.

As much as people love Corey Feldman (Who doesn't?), I really liked Adam Carl as the voice of Donatello. Plus, I found Brian Tochi's voice to be far more controlled and Leo-esque. Something erked me about his voice in the first movie.

But otherwise, it felt almost like an entirely different universe from the first.

Well the fact that it's a kids movie do justify the lack of weapons, goofy fights sound effects, and maybe even the REturn of the Shredder the way he did. But it really doesn't justify the cheesy script. There are children's movies with good script too.

How was the script cheesy?

As much as I loved this flick, they could've beefed it up alittle more with the fighting and whatnot.

First of the whole dialogue, and like Ninjagirl said, TMNT dancing in a night club? They were supposed stay out of sight. Every battle was cheesy and goofy with cartoony sound effects. Especially with the yoyos and sausages. One of the worst, bunch of foot Jump over Mikey, he gets out but foot continue hitting the ground. Extremely cheesy and lame. As is the Return of Shredder. First movie showed how the Helmet was crushed, no human could have survived that.

But like I said before, unlike the first movie it's made for children, and it justifies most of those things. But of course If you compare it to the great first movie, it will look very bad.

my thoughts...
 

re: Shredders helmet getting crushed - My thoughts on this was that his helmet fell off when he fell into the truck and so the empty helmet was crushed. (how he survived is another thing).

RE:April. I read/heard somewhere that the first April didn't go down well with the kids and that's why they changed her.

Super Shredder was awesome! His action figure was one of the best TMNT figures ever made (albeit a little short/small). The fact that his clothes 'mutated' made no sense, but oh well.

My fave line was when Mikey said; "a little too Raph"

TMNT II was the best film IMO.

I always preferred to think of it as Shredder's helmet getting crushed... cuz after a fall from that height it's actually pretty likely that his helmet would fall off. That it would land in the garbage truck.... that's a bit of a stretch but not altogether impossible. Shredders' return wasn't all that implausible if you remember that it is, in fact, a movie and that all people in movies are a bit more durable than they would be in real life.

And yes, CSD, Super-Shredder did indeed rule the universe. Not for anything he actually did... just cuz it was Nash. The fact that his clothes mutated made no sense, indeed, but... well neither did Nash letting Hogan pin him after a poke to the chest with his finger. Nash bends the laws of physics and reality. Cuz he's God, and God can do that.

1. Tokka and razor were not stupid. THEY WERE INFANTS!!! At least in human terms, for guys who just became intelliginet being able to talk in a day is pretty damn smart!

2. The costumes were better in the second movie, the Henson company refinded them to an art form in the movie so I have no clue how anyone can complain.

3. We never saw the shreddded get crushed in teh first movie jsut hiw helmet. So it is possible he survived.

4. I can't debate V-Ice, that was just a cheap idea to get people to watch the movie.

5. never heard any sound effects.

6. Keno wasn't a bad addition, yes he was diffrent, but he added much needed martial arts action since the suits naturally impeded some moves.

7. I can't say I cared about Casey, since the fight took place over 3 days or so, its not a big deal that they didn't go find and/or mention him.

8. So they didn't use their weapons, you act like its the greatest offence in teh world. Had they not been wearing their heads, I'd be mad, but weapons, thats hardly a reason to not like a movie

All in all 2 is my favorite of the 3 movies, its probblly the best blend of action and comidy they did.

Well even if he was in the crusher without his helmet, he would have still died. Grabage crusher does not that much space. But compared to everything else, it is still a minor detail.

Not all kids necessarily like things that have been dumbed-down and "kiddified", especially when they have something else to compare it to, such as the first movie or the Mirage comics.

My parents dropped my two younger sisters and me off at the theater to see TMNT II. Going in, our hopes were high from the precedent that had been set in TMNT I. Walking out of the movie was a totally different story for me. Yes, we were kids, but I knew right then that we'd been ripped off big time. (To be honest, I was flat-out depressed after seeing it.) It was obvious that the movie had been "kidded-down" considerably from the first.

Like many of you, some of the things that bugged the living crap outta me were:
1.) No Casey.
2.) No use of weapons.
3.) No usage of the term "Damn!" on Raph or anyone else's part.
4.) The addition of the annoying and, in retrospect, completely useless Keno. (Okay, maybe not completely useless. I just didn't like 'im.)
5.) No Casey.
6.) Rahzar - I thought Tokka looked pretty cool at the time, but Rahzar struck me as being a big, goofy reject from the backalley of Sesame Street.
7.) I'm going to be honest here and admit that both my sisters and I were young enough to actually think that Vanilla Ice was cool at that point in time. (My God, I look back and cringe . . . .) Still, the whole "Ninja Rap" routine was simply lame.
8.) Super Shredder . . . his severely disappointing lack of screen time; the fact that he lived such a brief time after his mutation; the fact that in his normal human form, Shredder survived FALLING from a ROOFTOP and being CRUSHED by a GARBAGE TRUCK, but colapsing LUMBER could KILL the SUPER SHREDDER. Gyahd!!! NnnNN - F*** ME!!! (Okay . . . woops . . . >ahem< . . . I thought I'd laid that all to rest in therapy. Guess not. Heh-heh.)
9.) No friggin' Casey.

As for Paige Turco's replacement of Judith Hoag as April, it bothered me for about five seconds, but I was quickly able to get past that with little trouble. Like Leo, the fact that she was hotter than Hoag won me over. (Hey, say what you will, but boys will be boys . . . even before puberty turns us into total hormonal maniacs.)

In closing, we were at TMNT II on its opening weekend. It left such a bad taste in our mouths that by the time TMNT III was released, we waited for it to come out on video.

I said the movies shouldn't be compared, but since you opened the door, let's.

Compared to to the first movie's seriousness and excellent plot, Tokka and Rahzard are very stupid thing. But the overall movie style has changed from action/comedy to cheesy children's comedy so they do kind of fit in.

I guess it's matter of opinion, but most fans like the TMNT without that many spots. Excluding the spots they are pretty much as good as in first movie.

Helmet or not, Human would not survive in garbage crusher. But again, the movie has so little credibility that it's a minor detail.

Yes, and the TMNT dancing was the second thing that totally deleted the ninja part from their name. Getting back to that later.

Then you should probably watch the first and second movie in a row. Most noticable are the yoyo and sausages at the begining.


I never really had anything against Keno, annoying character, yes but nothing stupid like Tokka and Rahzar.


No sure what to say, Casey wouldn't have made the movie any better.

This IS a major point. Ninja Turtles fighting with yoyos and sausages instead of traditional Ninja weapons? But again, it reflects the whole style and writing of the movie, goofy action for chidren.

But the general publick did not like it. Altough it wasn't as big flop as the TMNT III, it clearly was one. Because of this TMNT III never really had a chance, it was just the last attempt to cash out from a dieing success of the TMNT.

First movie was a hit that no one expected. Mainly because Kids' were not it's main audience. New Line shouldn't have changed the working formula, but they did, and can only blame themselfs.

As a movie TMNT is far superior in every way, but I really think that Ooze shouldn't be comapred to the first movie since it's much more closer to the cartoon. Kids and an old cartoon fans liked it, so it does appeal to the fan base that prefer the goofy TMNT.

Two things I haven't seen mentioned yet:

Even if Keno is irritating himself, something even more annoying is his lines when he fights / jumps around, which were clearly dubbed in afterwards.

The Foot soldiers becomes really incompetent! If these guys really are the best well-trained youths in NY, I wonder how bad fighters the rest of them must be...

:lol: You got that right. Especially in regard to the Foot Soldiers. "Fool Soldiers" would be a more accurate name.

Not this again...The sequal might be off balance but i don't see anything bad in it. sure it contains Comedy but nothing wrong to me. If it did awful howcome on the back of my VHS Box said better than the First.

Now here are my options:

The April Charater was play be a different actress but I didn't notice anything about that.

Notice The company was T.G.R.I. while the true letters were TCRI. Same techno company that created the ooze exspect it didn't had any Utroms in it.

I don't mind Keno at all. I guess the movie needed someone pasides danny to be the Kid charater. Nothing wrong with a Japenese Kid in it.

The costumes look like the ones from the original only design differently.

Shredder's Costume had a differnet Visor and Helmit.

Tokka and Rahzar, yes two dumb Mutated animal they don't bother me ether so some of you might as well let that past.

When I first saw the movie on Video I didn't even know who Vanilla Ice is.
Sorry but it's true.

On a different Topic Karpo007 said that the Original one was too serios for younger viewers. Then why does my vHs said the Term Family on it then

now if parent went to stupid enough to tell new Line what to do then maybe today you all would say better thing about it. i don't care what you you what's wrong with the sequal, They are still my favorite. and there's no Wrong thing about it.

I couldn't have said it better myself!

Nobody's saying that you're wrong, man. Your opinion is your opinion, and that's fine . . . and the same goes for those of us who weren't crazy about II or III.

That having been said, here are a few more of my own: :evilgrin:

The reason the back of your VHS box says that II is better than the first is a little thing called hype. That's a statement often made in one form or another in regard to a sequel for the sake of marketing . . . a statement that is rarely true. The ticket sales on II didn't begin to approach those of the first movie.

Who says movies like the TMNT flicks HAVE to have a kid character? Firstly, the Turtles themselves were close enough to being kids themselves. Secondly, kid characters irritated me even more when I was a kid myself. (When you pretended to be TMNT characters when you were a kid, did you or any of your friends ever say "Word, I wanna be Keno!") Thirdly, I really don't think the fact that Keno was a "Japanese" character had anything to do with the opinions of 99% of those who didn't like 'im. Certainly not for me.

As for what Karpo said, I won't insult him by attempting to speak for him, but I'll say this in defense of his comment: I don't think he was saying that the first movie was NOT made for kids at all. It was, by definition, more of a family flick than the second movie in the sense that it had elements aimed at both kids and adults. The second was aimed solely at kids . . . which was exactly why some kids didn't like it. :lol:

The costumes do not look the same.. I doesn't anyone remember that chart that JoshBYawn made awhile ago depicting the different versions of the TMNT? If anyone still has that, it'd be nice of you to post it. I've got plenty more to say, but just don't feel like it right now. Heh.

Right... Well Quiller-Bee covered it. TMNT made about 3 timesas much money in the Box office, so your VHS is just hype. And Yes, TMNT was a asuccess beacuse it wasn't children's movie. It was PG, and suitable for children but not made for them.

To me, the failure of TMNT2 was it's attempt to combine two completely different TMNT stories:

--The appearence of Rocksteady and Bebop from the old cartoon.

--The Utrom saga from the comics

The problem was that this fusion contained neither Bebop and Rocksteady, nor the Utroms!

Personally those two stories wouldn't have fused that well anyway.

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