Does each iteration have their own 80's dimension?
 

After thinking about Turtles Forever and it's portrayal of the 87 Turtles, and then later seeing the Nick idea of it, I'm wondering if each iteration actually just has it's own '87 Turtles just like they do of Dimension X.

2k3 has their own version, and it is extremely goofy.

Nick has it's own version, and it has a more different 'feel.'

The next show will probably have it's own version of it, and so on and so forth.

Maybe instead of a true 'Multiverse,' each iteration is it's own 'Prime,' and these other 'universes' are just pocket dimensions that are little more then reflections of the main universe shining back at it.

Any thoughts?

Nope. That's just a silly way for people who got their knickers in a twist about the OT turtles portrayal in TF to pretend that wasn't their actual precious iteration.

hmm
 

that's an interesting idea. it could be. I certainly won't come in here acting all high and mighty like i know everything and telling someone that their feelings are wrong or thoughts are dumb.

My personal opinion is no. But we can't say whats right or wrong cause it hasn't been stated candidly by Kevin or Peter.

I kinda like this notion. You can take it who knows where, and not just with the original cartoon. There can be alternate versions of the movie TMNT, Archie comics TMNT and so forth.

Don't you have anything better to do than keep stalking the guy? Leave him the f*ck alone for gods sake and let it go.

Sincerely - someone who's sick to death of the bitching about TF

Did I miss a meeting? What the f*ck is with all the "Suddenly I want to bitch about TF" nonsense? I thought we left that all buried ages ago. I was HOPING, anyway.

I think a few people have finally exhausted all the stale air in their basements and need to go see Mr. Sun. Or at least figure out how to not completely miss the point of things they swear they're experts on. I mean, how embarrassing for you.

I dunno about missing a meeting, but certainly an interdepartmental memo seems to have gone astray? :roll:

The animation of the OT Turtles in TF is pretty damn good. When Nick do it, they use that same Flash-style, 'cut-out' animation technique that they use for the cartoons the Turtles watch, which makes it look more like Archer than the OT.

"My two favorite cartoon shows are making fun of each other! How mean!"

Except not really, and what the f***.

Interesting trail of thoughts, why not? I mean thoughts are free xD. I personally wouldn't mind such a thing, its not like they appear so often these days.

As much as I hate how the OT turtles were portrayed in Turtles Forever it happened and the whole "they were other turtles similar to the OT but not the actual OT turtles' is a weak argument, I actually prefer the "hit by Krang's giggle ray" theory better.

Well... it's still a CGI show... they probably have limited traditional animation cause it's all about the CGI.

I like to think these crossovers are OT canon. That's the whole point, right? To revisit? These aren't just Family Guy cutaways. The OT turtles played a big role in Turtles Forever, and the Nick show actually rounded up the voice actors. All of that is undermined if they aren't really the turtles we know and love.

I think for me, it was something I had thought of because of how different the two portrayals of FW 'acted,' which made me speculate about them ultimately being two actual separate versions. Some of this being that I belong to another fandom (Transformers) that is used to this kind of 'multiversal' stuff, however, it gets weird in places. One theory going around is if Beast Wars is the true 'sequel' to the true 80's G1 cartoon, or if it actually is a sequel to an alternate universe version of the 80's cartoon. It has enough 'canon' elements to be considered a sequel by some, while also having enough stuff never mentioned or hinted at in the OT to be considered not a true sequel by others.

It's the theory that I am taking towards TF with these OT Turtles being just an AU version of them, an idea that I 'borrowed' off of TV Tropes and kind of liked myself.

@ Powder- If you must know my true reasons for not liking the TF movie (besides the minor one of the OT misrepresentation) it's because the movie makes it a point to destroy the 'universes' of the Turtle iterations and then beats you over the head that they are just all products of a comic book (as represented by a comic book universe.) The mashing of the OT Turtles was not nice, but this other part was the actual unpardonable sin. However, I don't mention this last part that much because it's hard, very hard to convey into words what made the movie so unfun to watch, because it is basically saying that their 'multi'-universe is so easily destroyable, their lives so easily erased, and everything about their past, present, and future so easily wiped from existence that made the movie an instant hate. Part of the fun of any universe is that it feels like a living world. When you erase all of that and point to an 'in-universe' literal comic book as the reason it's really not, then it's harder to feel as emotionally invested.

Wow, way to over-think it. :lol:

I have nothing against speculation or personal interpretation, but it's obvious that these were absolutely meant to be the OT turtles.

The multiverse is infinitely in Crisis!

Yeah, that was pretty cool.

Except that's actually the case, in real life. Every cartoon, movie, video game, toy, etc, are all products of a comic book. The comic came first, and everything else spun out of it. Turtles Forever just acknowledged that in-story.

Besides, the universes were all restored in the end, so... what's the problem?

Maybe the problem isn't so much that plot point from the movie, but an issue you have with these kinds of crossovers in general? It's a very comic book kind of thing -- hell, right now you can barely buy a Marvel/DC superhero comic without getting an alternate-worlds crossover story involving universes being destroyed or resurrected or both. It's really a "your mileage may vary" kind of thing... some people hate that stuff, some people love it.

Maybe try to look at it a different way - the movie acknowledged that the Mirage comics are the source of the entire multiverse, which is fair and makes sense. But it made a point to show that every version spinning out of it is equally "real" and valid. That's usually the point behind these kind of stories (well, the good ones, anyway): despite where they originated from, every alternate universe is equally "real" in its own story, so that shouldn't take anything away from your enjoyment unless you choose to let it.

The plot is really clever if you get on board. Theres's a reason 2003 Shredder didn't attack the Mirage universe during "Return to New York" or "City at War" or any other point in their history... the only way for him to destroy the entire TMNT multiverse (IE, franchise) was to literally destroy the events of the first-ever comic, the thing that made it all possible. And he failed, thanks to a team-up with the longest-running, arguably most-beloved versions of those characters in the '87 and 2003 cartoon. Everything was restored, their worlds were saved, and they all parted on terms of mutual respect and brotherhood. I will always, always unequivocally love that, and I'd hate to get so caught up on one specific detail that I'd totally miss the big important point at the end.

Bry: Keep in mind, TMNT fans in general have a nasty habit of over-emphasizing the importance of TMNT, or how "unique" and "different" or "special" it is. Ultimately, it's just another sci-fi action/adventure comic book story. It's a good one, but it puzzles me greatly how so many fans - many of whom aren't even fans of that kind of fiction AT ALL, oddly enough - will try and elevate it beyond that.

It's unique and special TO THEM, but... it's JUST a comic book action/adventure story, the same as any other. I think that disconnect is why some fans misread the material, or get overly hung up on trivial things, which in turn hampers their enjoyment of it.

But yeah, you hit the nail on the head with just about everything you said.

If you wanna nerd out about this stuff the better questions are (in my opinion):

Does the anime count as part of the old cartoon or it's own thing? It certainly seems to think it's part of the cartoon.
Are there more than one, or only one each, Battle Nexus and Cudley? I prefer to think there are only one of each. Same question could apply to Lord Simultaneous and Renet, but there is probably more evidence that they have per-universe incarnations.

If you absolutely need the various crossovers with the old cartoon to be different from each other, then maybe they're really from one of the video games or the Archie comics or whatever else spun off from the show. Hell, is there a Playmates universe too?

Most of those aren't too difficult to answer.

Yes, there's a Playmates universe, because all the characters' origins are completely contradictory form how they're presented in every other version, and some even look totally different. Like Ace Duck. For every day of the week, there's a different Ace Duck. :lol: Likewise, the Archie comic immediately took a left and deviated wildly from the FW cartoon from then on, so that's a whole separate universe, too.

Cudley and the Battle Nexus get a little bit tricky. The Mirage Nexus and the 2K3 Nexus seemed to be different from each other. Cudley, meanwhile... see, this is where you get into "Booster Gold" territory. Whenever you have a character that can travel through time AND space, AND to parallel realities, even if it's ONE singular "person", they're creating parallel alternate versions of themselves constantly. So, I think there's only "one" Cudley, but it's tough to say which one is appearing at any given point. Also, I Like Cudley. :tgrin:

The other stuff can best be solved by asking, "Do they contradict/reference each other?" The FW cartoon never mentions the events of the anime - naturally - but the events that took place were semi-noteworthy, so it's easy enough to say that was another parallel universe. Renet and Savanti, meanwhile... *similar* versions of each appeared in both Mirage and 2K3, playing out a similar string of events, BUT, there were some differences, and neither one ever referenced having gone through all of this before in another reality. So, once again, I'm going to have to say it was a different Renet and Savanti in 2K3 than Mirage. Just like New 52 Booster Gold is an entirely different guy than the "real" one. They're both Michael John Carter from the future, but from entirely different parallel timelines/alternate Earths, so they're NOT the same person even a little bit. They Are But They Totally Are Not, and they each travel into the past/future/parallel of THEIR Earth, not the other's.

So yeah, good questions but not super-tough. :tgrin:

If the FW Turtles are brought back I hope it's how they're shown in Nick's FW Turtles episode and not Turtles Forever.

Attack of the Multiverse! :lol::tlol:

While the whole idea might feel clever and innovative to you, your argument is hinged on one fatal flaw, in that there are some of us that don't want everything to be connected to each other nor to be a multiverse. No amount of saying how good the idea of a multiverse is will work when one sees it as nothing but pointless fan wank designed to get the maximum amount of nerd-gasms per page.


I will be blunt: Turtles Forever missed a fat opportunity to expand the Turtles lore in a big way because it chose to retread old ground rather then do something great. It could have used the 'Forever' moniker to show the Turtles as adults moving forward with their lives and taking on Ch'rell one last time, showing something poignant and meaningful, instead of a movie that ultimately makes no expansion on lore other then introducing the rather needless idea of a 'multiverse.' Half of the comic franchises out there have multiverses, they aren't special. But this thing, it could have been, if only they would have forgone the nostalgia trip for the sake of a few fans and shown what would've been newish territory. I know there are a few stories where it shows them as adults, but this would have been more 'public' and made it more acceptable to see the Turtles as something other then perpetual kiddy fare. Plus, it gives 'permission' of each iteration to show the adult version of the TMNT, allowing for that version to eventually introduce story ideas and character developments not possible when they were still teenagers.

Again, looking at the Small Picture and not the Big Picture.

"Fan Wank." :roll: No... It's the only half-decent way to explain why there's a ton of contradictory versions of something. Even if they never touch each other. It's a way to compartmentalize and keep things simple. Period.

It's just a word. Don't over-think this stuff. It's a word used to explain WHY when kids ask why. As in, "Why don't these two TMNT cartoons have anything in common?" "Simple, they're just different worlds, different 'universes'. They're similar but different." "Oh, okay."

The alternative to having parallel universes all co-existing? "Well, we threw out that old version because it was junk. Never Think Of It Again, only the New version matters." Well, that's horrible and that's also not the way things work. Every version is someone's favorite. So saying it "just doesn't exist anymore" is supremely insulting to Those Fans, while saying "It still exists out there... somewhere" at least doesn't tell them that the thing they preferred was thrown out like trash simply for being Out Of Date.

Don't let the big scary word overshadow the reason WHY it's a tool writers use.

Creators don't really decide to make something a multiverse. If there are different incarnations of something that aren't connected or in continuity with eachother you automatically get a multiverse: different versions of the same thing. Creators can however decide to create stories where characters travel between these versions.

You could however argue that the FW segments of 2003 and Nick are separate from the OT, since they aren't produced at the same time by the same people as the OT episodes. So they are minor variations on that universe.

Also, once something has been produced and released it exists. There's no way to erase it.

So, to answer the original question:

http://media2.giphy.com/media/e3HeWt2zBu4AU/giphy.gif

I love Cudley. I keep hoping that he'll turn up again at some point, preferably the exact same version from the Archie comics as a nod along these lines.

But that's not a "fatal flaw" at all. That's just your personal preference. Not an objective truth. Why are your opinions or preferences any more valid than anyone else's?

Like, listen. I'm a comics reader, so I'll use this an example: I like the DC Universe a lot, but I've been largely turned off of it since the New 52 reboot. I don't want the characters I loved to be wiped out of current continuity and their histories to tossed out. I don't want Barry Allen to replace Wally West again. But it still happened. There's nothing I can do about it. It's published, it "counts", even if I don't like it. So... what am I gonna do? Continually make a big stink over something existing that I don't personally enjoy? I mean, criticism is fine, but at the point where I'm basically pouting over it having happened? It already did! I had to do what everyone else in this kind of situation had to do: accept it, move on, and focus on the stuff I do enjoy.

The beauty of the TMNT multiverse is that, aside from a few, very rare crossovers like Turtles Forever, you can basically forget about it if you want to. Turtles Forever doesn't, or at least shouldn't, impact your enjoyment of the '87 cartoon. If you don't like it, just pretend it didn't happen. That's what head-canon is for. It's all media for your enjoyment, so enjoy it however you want to.

The problem here seems to be that some folks are so precious about their personal preferences that they need them "officially" confirmed, or just can't accept it when the "official" version goes against them.

...okay? I'm certainly not opposed to that, but it's an entirely different concept than what Turtles Forever was designed to be. It was a big anniversary special specifically made to look backward at the history of the property and connect it all together. It was designed to be "fan wank". And there's nothing wrong with that - plenty of so-called "fan wank" can and has been be great on its own merits.

They've written comics stories along the lines of what you're pitching here. They exist already. If you want another one, I dunno, write a fanfic or something. But you keep making the assertion that Turtles Forever was a "mistake" somehow because it wasn't written for you, by your own subjective, personal standards. And that just doesn't make sense.

But that's the thing. I (and others) state that we don't like Turtles Forever for various reasons, and we have people on here telling us how our opinions are mistaken and that Turtles Forever is somehow a masterpiece. We get called FW crybabies and such whenever we object to the way the FW Turtles cry and joke in ways that not even they did in the goofiest era of the show. Some of us don't like the connected multiverse concept in general, because we've seen the results in comics and we just didn't like it.

Yes, you might not like it, but by approving of a connected multiverse n TMNT, it's pretty much bringing that iteration destroying stuff over to this one. Thing is, if they aren't connected, most iterations are safe as without a specific say so or action on any particular one, they are always perpetually 'canon.' However, by connecting them you risk some corporate entity deciding that the whole multiverse is is a pain in the ass to keep up with, so they will wipe out whole groups of iterations out of canon to 'simplify' things. That is what is happening to Marvel's 52. And by approving of the connected multiverse in TMNT, you'll also have to accept your favorite iteration being erased if the higher-ups want to make it 'streamlined'. Are you prepared to accept it if some corporate bigwig decides that 5-10 years in the future he wants to Marvel 52 the whole TMNT multiverse?



But we can't forget it. Some of us would like it to be a take-it-or-leave-it scenario where it isn't officially declared to be canon, but you can include it in your own personal headcanon if you want. Some of us try to pretend that it doesn't exist, but if we said that on here, we get tons of TF defenders telling us that we should just 'accept' the movie, even if we don't like it.

But that's what you pro-TF forever guys are doing. You 'need' the movie to tell you that all iterations exist, that they are all equally relevant, and that nothing will change that. For those of us that don't like the movie, we don't need that. To us, the iterations exist period because they are physically here in some form and they are talked about and referenced.



I just threw that out because those comics that reference the future aren't a major push for having TV show stories of the Turtles evolving beyond teenager-hood. Sure we have SAINW, but that was a future that never really existed, while I'm talking about stories that are 'canon' that carry the Turtles beyond into new territory.

Multiple versions of one incarnation? That'd make the Wiki a nightmare.

I only see one incarnation as doing this - Mirage. One version where Ch'rell showed up, and as it exists in the comics.

If so, it's pointless to create that movie and episode because Turtles Forever is supposed to be 2003 meets 1987, not 2003 meets a 1987 parody, the same with Wormquake (2012 and 1987).

I can't even remember now, TF didn't end with a "and now no one will remember this", did it? As in, things where changed/happened in those continuities that in theory would continue from there? Like are we supposed to think the Mirage turtles remember this weird battle involving a bunch of alternate selves happening right at the start of their career? Would 2k3 Mikey look forward to the others finding the Battle Nexus so he could attempt to beat them, too?

In my mind, they woke up the next day having no memory of the incident. :trazz:

It never had anything like that- they still remembered everything, plus the 80's Technodrome never was shown to lose any of the upgrading Ch'rell did to it. Hence why I wondered if each iteration had it's own 80's dimension, since this upgrading should have appeared somewhere, Krang and the Turtles should have mentioned something, and it would be really out of character for Shredder and Krang to willingly abandon such higher level technologies or whatever could give them an advantage, even if they were created or bestowed by a rival alien.

Taken as something happening to 2k3's 80's Turtle dimension it works perfectly, trying to fit it to the 80's Turtle dimension will make it massively contradict on-screen canon, as nothing 'Forever' shows up or is hinted anywhere up to the last episode of the last season.

Nope, none of them have their own 80's dimension. There is only one 80's dimension just as there is one Nick dimension and so forth. I like the multiverse theory because it makes sense since there are so many different incarnations of TMNT, which TF confirmed. It's the best way to explain why so many universes are different and I really hope the Nick show will expand on it as well and I think they will.