TMNT vs. Gargoyles
 

I'm not sure if I should put this here or not, but since I've seen a lot of people on here mentioning the Gargoyles tv show in comparison to TMNT I thought I'd go here. Anyway, I bought season one and season two part 1 to see what the deal is. So far, there are a lot of similarities between them.

The old mentor
A Leader in Blue
A feisty angry one in Red
A smart one who tinkers
A goofy one who loves to eat
A girl who is a friend and ally
A bad guy who wears a metal uniform
They live in NY
They fight to defend the city
They have to stay hidden
They time travel
The list goes on...It was almost like Gargoyles was made to compete with the Turtles, so I'm assuming it was the OT they were trying to show up?

The only thing is that Gargoyles relies way too much on human storylines, especially with the enemies. I don't mind backstory, but my God it goes on for too long. I may be in the minority, but I hated that City of Stone Arc. I FF most of it.

I love Shakespeare, but there was way too much of that as well. I know I'm not halfway through the series yet, but so far, I'm not really into the enemies. While I love so many of the Turtles bad guys.

The sad thing is that I love the Gargoyles, but they are pushed back in preference of the Goliath show(Something some people think happens with Leo in TMNT). They should have added more Gargoyles for storylines rather than more enemies.

Then there is the "romance". In the intros at the beginning of each episode there is mention of lots of romance and then it's two sentences and a look and that's it. I never have felt anything other than friendship between them and since they never discuss it, that's all that I see.

Again, I might be too harsh since I am only halfway through. It could get back to the Gargoyles themselves later on, but right now I'm only sort of liking the show. It's so odd that I never saw this when it first aired.

There have been a few moments where I felt emotional or had a pang of sadness for the guys, Deadly Force shocked me to tears for Elisa and poor Broadway. And when that winged Lion woman spurned Brooklyn, I felt so horrid for him, especially when he said to forget about her, she didn't want him. There are many fantastic dramatic scenes that probably were ahead of their time back then.

But the Turtles, especially Nick, have made my heart tug, the tears well and brought a smile to my face far more than any other show ever has. I just love the guys so much. I think Gargoyles had a great many chances to do so much more, but so far it misses opportunities.

I may like the Nick show, but Gargoyles is vastly superior.

More gargoyles? You do realize that most of their clan was slaughtered, BY HUMANS, and they are the "last" of their kind? That's part of the tragedy of their life- much like the turtles being the only ones of THEIR kind. Which is sort of the point.

Also, if you REALLY want more of the Gargoyles, wait for the Avalon arc and the Journey from Avalon back to New York. Everything ties together, and there's so much Shakespeare for a reason. It mostly has to do with Avalon and MacBeth, as well as Demona. The series is big on magic and science being two sides of the same coin, and how much of what happens is Fate. Also, who doesn't love King Arthur and Puck! It's a much more serious cartoon series, with many intricate plot-lines.

I always thought there should have been a cartoon crossover between these two. It just seems like it's begging for a crossover. Other cartoons did crossovers so I don't know how they missed this opportunity By the time Gargoyles came out, the Red Sky Seasons of TMNT showed up which would be good because the Red Sky Seasons were much more serious than it's previous episodes and I think it'd fit well with Gargoyles. I sometimes wonder if Xanatos or Demona could make a deal with Krang and Shredder It'd be awesome to see the Gargoyles take down Rock Soldiers, too.

I keep holding out hope that they will find some long lost eggs or something. I keep thinking about the eggs that Goliath asked them to guard. I know Demona ruled them for a while and they must be gone. I'm not sure how they got Coldstone, but based on your reaction they are truly the last of their kind. :(

Oh, I wouldn't be too sure of that....:twink:

I like Gargoyles more. Elisa is awesome~

There is also a Same as it Never Was sort of episode that has Goliath throw the Phoenix Gate into the time stream. However Greg Weismen had to bring out a Brooklyn centered Spin off called "Time Dancer"

In this Spin Off, Brooklyn is grabbed by the Phoenix Gate and he's gone for about 5 Minutes, but when he returns he's 40 years older. He has a Japanese Gargoyle for a mate named Katana. A young son name Nashville or Nash for short, and one child that is still an egg who they call "Eggwardo" until it hatches into a baby female Gargoyle they named Tachi.

According to the concept, the Phoenix Gate was not lost forever when Goliath threw it away, but reappeared to Brooklyn less than a year later. It proceeds to transport Brooklyn to various different points in time, depositing him in one and vanishing only to reappear a while later and whisk him away again; Brooklyn presumably attempts to seize the Gate and use it to return himself home, but never succeeds until the end.

The idea was developed to late for it to be considered by any networks. But a lot of the things that happen in the show that seem a little too coincidental happen because Brooklyn caused them to happen.

For example:
The Phoenix Gate initially transports Brooklyn to Scotland in the year 997, where he meets Mary (Tom's Mother) and Finella, still on the run from Constantine III's forces, and protects them and the Grimorum Arcanorum until the Gate reappears and transports all three of them, and the Grimorum, to the United States in the late 1970s. There, the three of them eventually plot the alliance between Xanatos and Demona that led to Castle Wyvern being moved to the top of the Eyrie Building, with some help from Owen/Puck. Afterwards, Brooklyn would have been taken away by the Gate for still further adventures.

http://img02.deviantart.net/6cc8/i/2...rd-d6btxr6.jpg

I'm gonna say Gargoyles is much better than the Nick show and on the same level as 2k3 in terms of quality. Some people weren't happy with the third season of Gargoyles; myself, I wasn't nuts about the 'canon' continuation in the comics (with the sole exception of Lex getting a bit more development in his personal life).

Probably my only criticism of Gargoyles is that it's a bit of a sausage-fest; due to the "last of their kind" thing, any incoming female Garg inevitably ends up as a love interest. Probably another reason why I adore Demona so much, since she's able to buck the trend. Plus I love me a feisty redhead with a penchant for bazookas. :D

Not exactly. The eggs do get brought back up during the Avalon arc, in a way. But they weren't the clan Demona was with later, that was an entirely different clan.

Coldstone was an interesting case- he's one of those instances of magic and science working together, since Xanatos and Demona created him by using both high tech robotics and the Grimorum.


I'll second that!



Now I wish I'd read those, because I didn't know about that story, but it makes a few things make more sense.

Why does that not surprise me? But I like her too- so much that I named a kitty after her!

Actually that clan Demon joined up with was a group that Splintered off from Clan Wyvern because it was getting too big. And one of the members was supposedly Brooklyn's older brother.

With the exception of the first episode. The Goliath Chronicles are completely not cannon to the original series. The Comic Books done by Slave Labor comics however are.

Was that bit about the other clan from the comics? I don't recall any mention of that fact in the show itself. They only showed that she had become their leader, and they were starving and living in hiding from the Hunters.

If we are to compare FW TMNT to Gargoyles I'd say Gargoyles would win, the attitude towards "Quality or Quantity" was quite clearly different between the two shows.

I think that was a tidbit that was mentioned by Greg but hasn't made it into the show itself.

I love Brooklyn, he's my fav. I got emotional when he was made second in command. He was so innocent and humble.

There is a comic? I must have that.

I'm a little past half way now and things are getting good. I can't wait to find out what will happen. I'm trying not to burn through them all so quickly, but they are moving along now.

Brooklyn's my favorite as well. I would say avoid Goliath Chronicles as Brooklyn is made into a horn dog in that series. Practically every time they start talking about about meeting New Gargoyles or something Brooklyn's automatic go too line is "Yeah, new 'Female' Gargoyles."

Yeah, the first few episodes of The Goliath Chronicles are the only canon episodes, I think it was the first 4 episodes, after that, avoid at all costs.

One of my favorite thing in Gargoyles was the integration of Shakespeare so deeply in the series. Macbeth is one of my all time favorite villains in any series, and the Puck episodes were almost always great.

The Journey is the only episode that's cannon. Cause that's the only one Greg Weisman was involved with and follows his vision of the story. All the other episodes are not part of the cannon story.

Following the Journey,

Xanatos holds a Halloween Party at the Eyrie Building. And the gargoyles are also able to attend. Fox even makes costumes for them with Angela, Broadway, and Lexington all having Wizard of Oz costumes and Brooklyn's costume is Superman.

The night before the party, Elisa tells Goliath that she feels they should see other people because when he sees her future, she sees everything she can't have with him.

So Goliath and Brooklyn go to the Labyrinth to meet with the Clones, Brooklyn is about to talk to Delilah (a clone hybrid of Demona and Elisa) But Goliath instead invites her to party as his date.

Not long after Goliath and Brooklyn leave with Delilah, Thailog attacks and all the clones return to their original programming of "Obey Thailog". The group attacks the Gargoyles at the party. Thailog uses a wrist mounted knife and uses it to stab Goliath in the gut, and take blood samples from each of the Manhattan Clan so Savarious can create a Gargant-Mutagen.

Delilah then appears. Angelia yells "You don't have to obey him, your free." Delilah then asks if that is an order or if she really is free to do as she wishes. She then tells both Thailog she wants nothing to do with them because they both used her for their own reasons, and it's only when she was at the Labyrinth that she felt free. She then offers the choice to the other clones and Malibu (the Clone of Brooklyn) Hollywood (The Clone of Broadway) and Burbank (the Clone of Hudson) all agree that they want to Return to the Labyrinth with her.

Brentwood (Lexington's clone) however says he wants to stay with Thailog and both he and Thailog take off into the night.

You know, I didn't really blame Brooklyn for being so anxious to find more Gar-girls, after Goliath's revelation about Avalon. Add in the choice of Broadway by---- and you get the feeling he was a bit jealous. It's natural. Even Lex pursued it for a time. (Though I suppose he did so because it was expected. I'm still not convince he should've been --- all along, given that he was also excited about the prospect of gar-girls.)

Saying that one time is fine. But saying that three or four times it's like "We get it, you want to get laid. Enough already."

Fortunately he does find a mate in the Time Dancer story.

http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets...TimeDancer.jpg Brooklyn after he returns from his journey as the Time Dancer.

http://thetrappedfan.weebly.com/uplo...45/8616802.jpg Brooklyn's mate, Katana with their unhatched child Egwardo (Tachi)

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...f/fe/Gnash.jpg And their son.

I always saw it as Brooklyn being a bit resentful of that choice, as well as still hopeful that he might also find a mate. It would be tough being in a clan of all males when he's the second in command, but even worse when the "other guy" gets the girl before HE does. The fact that his personality is a lot like Raph's has a lot to do with it, too. It's a clear case of sibling rivalry, especially when the "eggs" were discussed once Goliath, Bronx and Elisa returned. (How many were in that rookery again?)

Also- I've seen that comic page before. I have no comments on that storyline since I've not been able to read it, but I AM aware of it.

Angela said she had 15 Rookery Sisters. But there is no telling how many were single. For example Ophelia and Gabriel were mates.

But like is said anything in the Goliath Chronicles with the exception of the first episode is not considered cannon to the story.

What does that have to do with it? She said that in season two. Anyway, he's only NEED one, LOL!

Because Angela was from a rookery of 36 eggs. There were 16 females including Angela. So 16 out of 36 means 20 of the eggs were male. Just because Angela didn't find a mate among her Rookery brothers, doesn't mean the others did not. Of course you also have to count in Boudicca the gargoyle beast so that leaves only 19 males. And since Gargoyles do mate for life that causes a bit of a problem.

The point was that if Angela didn't find a mate, chances are that a few of the others didn't either- so he had a good chance of being able to find one there if he were to go. And Boudicca seemed to be pretty taken with Bronx, so we can probably count that one off. (Also, female or not, I'm not sure she even counts...) Of course that leave the question of the leftover males, but maybe there could have even been a prospect for Lex there. If he was, chances are there might be others like him.... (Still have a hard time swallowing that idea given the first two seasons, but it's whatever.)

Anyway, Brooklyn had every reason to be a little jealous and/or resentful, since in HIS eyes, there was only ONE available prospect- and He wasn't the one that won in that department. So, yeah, I can understand why he'd jump at the thought of possibly finding others, and it makes perfect sense. "Canon" or not, it was completely in character for him. (And I still consider it canon IMHO, since it WAS part of the actual series, while the comics came later. It's just a case of which one trumps the other, really, and whether one considers material "more canon" just because it was done by the creator(s), or because it was part of the official universe in-series. Forgotten Realms fans have the same issue..... And now so do Star Was fans, for that matter.)

By others like him, I'm assuming you're referring to the idea that Lexington was gay? Right?

Yes, though as I said, I still have an issue with that, since there was never any indication of it in the series. He competed for Angie as much as the other two did.

Brooklyn also notices his clone is even getting girl action. As he sees Malibu and Delilah embracing and he's like "You've got to me kidding me!"

As for Lex being gay. He was gay but didn't know it. Greg had mentioned in an interview he had wanted put some indications, but since having such implications in a kids show would raise more then a few eye brows and bring in some parental complaints.

Also he's from 10th century Scotland. I can imagine that would have been heavily frowned upon by the other members in the clan even if he was aware of his sexuality. It's in the SLG comics that Lex starts exploring his sexuality with one of the members of Gryff's clan. A deer like Gargoyle named Stagheart. And Weisman had confirmed it was indeed a crush on Lexington's part.

I have issues 1-7 of the SLG comics if your interested.

I remember Stagheart- vaguely. Huh, so I wasn't far off when I thought of shipping him and Griff? Cool! And yeah, I remember Brooklyn's reaction to that, which is just one more reason I felt like it was very in character for him to be a bit pissed about everyone but him seemingly finding mates.

Not sure what the thoughts on that were like in Scotland back then, but given the heavy Celtic roots and influence (even after the Church had moved in) I'd say probably less frowned on than one might think. There was also a good bit of Roman influence, which would likely have made it even less of an issue (That primarily came from the Church once they began spreading into the British isles. Scotland was one of the last areas to be converted, IIRC, and also had a strong connection with Ireland, which was more resistant to such influences, as seen in their many "Saints" who are actually thinly disguised Celtic deities.)

No he wasn't gay to begin with in the show. Nothing indicated it. Just because Greg planned on having indications doesn't make it so because it never made it to the show and is therefore not canon with the story. It's like with the whole Dumbledoore thing in Harry Potter where Rowling would say "Well I intended for him to be gay" but that doesn't mean he was because those were thoughts they bounced around with but never made it to the actual story, so why make it canon when it wasn't even in the story to begin with since nothing showed or even indicated such a thing.

Yay Gargoyle talk :D

I love Gargoyles, it's my no 1 favourite cartoon but due having no new cartoon, comics ect, TMNT is top at the moment.

Both shows have similar moments.



There are actually 3 Gargoyle Beast's on Avalon no just Boudicca. The other 2 are mates.

The slave labor comics are cannon to the show and that is where Greg Weisman has more freedom to develop Lex's character the way he wants. At the time Gargoyles came out it still wasn't considered appropriate to have a character who was homosexual in a kids show. So there was no freedom to indicate that Lexington was gay without the S&P or parental complains about what is appropriate to show to children. . So the best excuse they could have for it was that he was gay and just didn't know it yet.

And Greg Weisman did confirm at a Gargoyles panel CONvergence in 2011 that Lex does have a crush on Stagheart.

In kids shows today we have a little more leniency in that area such as Lyra and Bonbon claiming their "Best Friends" though it's obvious that they are hot for each other. Or the ending of Legend of Korra where you can see Korra and Assami walking into the Spirit World as friends. Or as lesbians.