TMNT vs. Gargoyles

[aliena]

I'm not sure if I should put this here or not, but since I've seen a lot of people on here mentioning the Gargoyles tv show in comparison to TMNT I thought I'd go here. Anyway, I bought season one and season two part 1 to see what the deal is. So far, there are a lot of similarities between them.

The old mentor
A Leader in Blue
A feisty angry one in Red
A smart one who tinkers
A goofy one who loves to eat
A girl who is a friend and ally
A bad guy who wears a metal uniform
They live in NY
They fight to defend the city
They have to stay hidden
They time travel
The list goes on...It was almost like Gargoyles was made to compete with the Turtles, so I'm assuming it was the OT they were trying to show up?

The only thing is that Gargoyles relies way too much on human storylines, especially with the enemies. I don't mind backstory, but my God it goes on for too long. I may be in the minority, but I hated that City of Stone Arc. I FF most of it.

I love Shakespeare, but there was way too much of that as well. I know I'm not halfway through the series yet, but so far, I'm not really into the enemies. While I love so many of the Turtles bad guys.

The sad thing is that I love the Gargoyles, but they are pushed back in preference of the Goliath show(Something some people think happens with Leo in TMNT). They should have added more Gargoyles for storylines rather than more enemies.

Then there is the "romance". In the intros at the beginning of each episode there is mention of lots of romance and then it's two sentences and a look and that's it. I never have felt anything other than friendship between them and since they never discuss it, that's all that I see.

Again, I might be too harsh since I am only halfway through. It could get back to the Gargoyles themselves later on, but right now I'm only sort of liking the show. It's so odd that I never saw this when it first aired.

There have been a few moments where I felt emotional or had a pang of sadness for the guys, Deadly Force shocked me to tears for Elisa and poor Broadway. And when that winged Lion woman spurned Brooklyn, I felt so horrid for him, especially when he said to forget about her, she didn't want him. There are many fantastic dramatic scenes that probably were ahead of their time back then.

But the Turtles, especially Nick, have made my heart tug, the tears well and brought a smile to my face far more than any other show ever has. I just love the guys so much. I think Gargoyles had a great many chances to do so much more, but so far it misses opportunities.

[TurtleTitan97]

I may like the Nick show, but Gargoyles is vastly superior.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

More gargoyles? You do realize that most of their clan was slaughtered, BY HUMANS, and they are the "last" of their kind? That's part of the tragedy of their life- much like the turtles being the only ones of THEIR kind. Which is sort of the point.

Also, if you REALLY want more of the Gargoyles, wait for the Avalon arc and the Journey from Avalon back to New York. Everything ties together, and there's so much Shakespeare for a reason. It mostly has to do with Avalon and MacBeth, as well as Demona. The series is big on magic and science being two sides of the same coin, and how much of what happens is Fate. Also, who doesn't love King Arthur and Puck! It's a much more serious cartoon series, with many intricate plot-lines.

[Yabuturtle]

I always thought there should have been a cartoon crossover between these two. It just seems like it's begging for a crossover. Other cartoons did crossovers so I don't know how they missed this opportunity By the time Gargoyles came out, the Red Sky Seasons of TMNT showed up which would be good because the Red Sky Seasons were much more serious than it's previous episodes and I think it'd fit well with Gargoyles. I sometimes wonder if Xanatos or Demona could make a deal with Krang and Shredder It'd be awesome to see the Gargoyles take down Rock Soldiers, too.

[aliena]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

More gargoyles? You do realize that most of their clan was slaughtered, BY HUMANS, and they are the "last" of their kind? That's part of the tragedy of their life- much like the turtles being the only ones of THEIR kind. Which is sort of the point.

Also, if you REALLY want more of the Gargoyles, wait for the Avalon arc and the Journey from Avalon back to New York. Everything ties together, and there's so much Shakespeare for a reason. It mostly has to do with Avalon and MacBeth, as well as Demona. The series is big on magic and science being two sides of the same coin, and how much of what happens is Fate. Also, who doesn't love King Arthur and Puck! It's a much more serious cartoon series, with many intricate plot-lines.

I keep holding out hope that they will find some long lost eggs or something. I keep thinking about the eggs that Goliath asked them to guard. I know Demona ruled them for a while and they must be gone. I'm not sure how they got Coldstone, but based on your reaction they are truly the last of their kind.

[TurtleTitan97]

Originally Posted by aliena

I keep holding out hope that they will find some long lost eggs or something. I keep thinking about the eggs that Goliath asked them to guard. I know Demona ruled them for a while and they must be gone. I'm not sure how they got Coldstone, but based on your reaction they are truly the last of their kind.

Oh, I wouldn't be too sure of that....

[BabyTurtles]

I like Gargoyles more. Elisa is awesome~

[victory_angel]

There is also a Same as it Never Was sort of episode that has Goliath throw the Phoenix Gate into the time stream. However Greg Weismen had to bring out a Brooklyn centered Spin off called "Time Dancer"

In this Spin Off, Brooklyn is grabbed by the Phoenix Gate and he's gone for about 5 Minutes, but when he returns he's 40 years older. He has a Japanese Gargoyle for a mate named Katana. A young son name Nashville or Nash for short, and one child that is still an egg who they call "Eggwardo" until it hatches into a baby female Gargoyle they named Tachi.

According to the concept, the Phoenix Gate was not lost forever when Goliath threw it away, but reappeared to Brooklyn less than a year later. It proceeds to transport Brooklyn to various different points in time, depositing him in one and vanishing only to reappear a while later and whisk him away again; Brooklyn presumably attempts to seize the Gate and use it to return himself home, but never succeeds until the end.

The idea was developed to late for it to be considered by any networks. But a lot of the things that happen in the show that seem a little too coincidental happen because Brooklyn caused them to happen.

For example:
The Phoenix Gate initially transports Brooklyn to Scotland in the year 997, where he meets Mary (Tom's Mother) and Finella, still on the run from Constantine III's forces, and protects them and the Grimorum Arcanorum until the Gate reappears and transports all three of them, and the Grimorum, to the United States in the late 1970s. There, the three of them eventually plot the alliance between Xanatos and Demona that led to Castle Wyvern being moved to the top of the Eyrie Building, with some help from Owen/Puck. Afterwards, Brooklyn would have been taken away by the Gate for still further adventures.

[pennydreadful]

I'm gonna say Gargoyles is much better than the Nick show and on the same level as 2k3 in terms of quality. Some people weren't happy with the third season of Gargoyles; myself, I wasn't nuts about the 'canon' continuation in the comics (with the sole exception of Lex getting a bit more development in his personal life).

Probably my only criticism of Gargoyles is that it's a bit of a sausage-fest; due to the "last of their kind" thing, any incoming female Garg inevitably ends up as a love interest. Probably another reason why I adore Demona so much, since she's able to buck the trend. Plus I love me a feisty redhead with a penchant for bazookas.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by aliena

I keep holding out hope that they will find some long lost eggs or something. I keep thinking about the eggs that Goliath asked them to guard. I know Demona ruled them for a while and they must be gone. I'm not sure how they got Coldstone, but based on your reaction they are truly the last of their kind.

Not exactly. The eggs do get brought back up during the Avalon arc, in a way. But they weren't the clan Demona was with later, that was an entirely different clan.

Coldstone was an interesting case- he's one of those instances of magic and science working together, since Xanatos and Demona created him by using both high tech robotics and the Grimorum.

Originally Posted by TurtleTitan97

Oh, I wouldn't be too sure of that....

I'll second that!

Originally Posted by victory_angel

There is also a Same as it Never Was sort of episode that has Goliath throw the Phoenix Gate into the time stream. However Greg Weismen had to bring out a Brooklyn centered Spin off called "Time Dancer"

In this Spin Off, Brooklyn is grabbed by the Phoenix Gate and he's gone for about 5 Minutes, but when he returns he's 40 years older. He has a Japanese Gargoyle for a mate named Katana. A young son name Nashville or Nash for short, and one child that is still an egg who they call "Eggwardo" until it hatches into a baby female Gargoyle they named Tachi.

According to the concept, the Phoenix Gate was not lost forever when Goliath threw it away, but reappeared to Brooklyn less than a year later. It proceeds to transport Brooklyn to various different points in time, depositing him in one and vanishing only to reappear a while later and whisk him away again; Brooklyn presumably attempts to seize the Gate and use it to return himself home, but never succeeds until the end.

The idea was developed to late for it to be considered by any networks. But a lot of the things that happen in the show that seem a little too coincidental happen because Brooklyn caused them to happen.

For example:
The Phoenix Gate initially transports Brooklyn to Scotland in the year 997, where he meets Mary (Tom's Mother) and Finella, still on the run from Constantine III's forces, and protects them and the Grimorum Arcanorum until the Gate reappears and transports all three of them, and the Grimorum, to the United States in the late 1970s. There, the three of them eventually plot the alliance between Xanatos and Demona that led to Castle Wyvern being moved to the top of the Eyrie Building, with some help from Owen/Puck. Afterwards, Brooklyn would have been taken away by the Gate for still further adventures.

http://img02.deviantart.net/6cc8/i/2...rd-d6btxr6.jpg

Now I wish I'd read those, because I didn't know about that story, but it makes a few things make more sense.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

I'm gonna say Gargoyles is much better than the Nick show and on the same level as 2k3 in terms of quality. Some people weren't happy with the third season of Gargoyles; myself, I wasn't nuts about the 'canon' continuation in the comics (with the sole exception of Lex getting a bit more development in his personal life).

Probably my only criticism of Gargoyles is that it's a bit of a sausage-fest; due to the "last of their kind" thing, any incoming female Garg inevitably ends up as a love interest. Probably another reason why I adore Demona so much, since she's able to buck the trend. Plus I love me a feisty redhead with a penchant for bazookas.

Why does that not surprise me? But I like her too- so much that I named a kitty after her!

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Not exactly. The eggs do get brought back up during the Avalon arc, in a way. But they weren't the clan Demona was with later, that was an entirely different clan.

Actually that clan Demon joined up with was a group that Splintered off from Clan Wyvern because it was getting too big. And one of the members was supposedly Brooklyn's older brother.

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

I'm gonna say Gargoyles is much better than the Nick show and on the same level as 2k3 in terms of quality. Some people weren't happy with the third season of Gargoyles; myself, I wasn't nuts about the 'canon' continuation in the comics (with the sole exception of Lex getting a bit more development in his personal life).

With the exception of the first episode. The Goliath Chronicles are completely not cannon to the original series. The Comic Books done by Slave Labor comics however are.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Was that bit about the other clan from the comics? I don't recall any mention of that fact in the show itself. They only showed that she had become their leader, and they were starving and living in hiding from the Hunters.

[neatoman]

If we are to compare FW TMNT to Gargoyles I'd say Gargoyles would win, the attitude towards "Quality or Quantity" was quite clearly different between the two shows.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Was that bit about the other clan from the comics? I don't recall any mention of that fact in the show itself. They only showed that she had become their leader, and they were starving and living in hiding from the Hunters.

I think that was a tidbit that was mentioned by Greg but hasn't made it into the show itself.

[aliena]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

There is also a Same as it Never Was sort of episode that has Goliath throw the Phoenix Gate into the time stream. However Greg Weismen had to bring out a Brooklyn centered Spin off called "Time Dancer"

In this Spin Off, Brooklyn is grabbed by the Phoenix Gate and he's gone for about 5 Minutes, but when he returns he's 40 years older. He has a Japanese Gargoyle for a mate named Katana. A young son name Nashville or Nash for short, and one child that is still an egg who they call "Eggwardo" until it hatches into a baby female Gargoyle they named Tachi.

According to the concept, the Phoenix Gate was not lost forever when Goliath threw it away, but reappeared to Brooklyn less than a year later. It proceeds to transport Brooklyn to various different points in time, depositing him in one and vanishing only to reappear a while later and whisk him away again; Brooklyn presumably attempts to seize the Gate and use it to return himself home, but never succeeds until the end.

The idea was developed to late for it to be considered by any networks. But a lot of the things that happen in the show that seem a little too coincidental happen because Brooklyn caused them to happen.

For example:
The Phoenix Gate initially transports Brooklyn to Scotland in the year 997, where he meets Mary (Tom's Mother) and Finella, still on the run from Constantine III's forces, and protects them and the Grimorum Arcanorum until the Gate reappears and transports all three of them, and the Grimorum, to the United States in the late 1970s. There, the three of them eventually plot the alliance between Xanatos and Demona that led to Castle Wyvern being moved to the top of the Eyrie Building, with some help from Owen/Puck. Afterwards, Brooklyn would have been taken away by the Gate for still further adventures.

http://img02.deviantart.net/6cc8/i/2...rd-d6btxr6.jpg

I love Brooklyn, he's my fav. I got emotional when he was made second in command. He was so innocent and humble.

There is a comic? I must have that.

I'm a little past half way now and things are getting good. I can't wait to find out what will happen. I'm trying not to burn through them all so quickly, but they are moving along now.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by aliena

I love Brooklyn, he's my fav. I got emotional when he was made second in command. He was so innocent and humble.

There is a comic? I must have that.

I'm a little past half way now and things are getting good. I can't wait to find out what will happen. I'm trying not to burn through them all so quickly, but they are moving along now.

Brooklyn's my favorite as well. I would say avoid Goliath Chronicles as Brooklyn is made into a horn dog in that series. Practically every time they start talking about about meeting New Gargoyles or something Brooklyn's automatic go too line is "Yeah, new 'Female' Gargoyles."

[Huzzah]

Yeah, the first few episodes of The Goliath Chronicles are the only canon episodes, I think it was the first 4 episodes, after that, avoid at all costs.

One of my favorite thing in Gargoyles was the integration of Shakespeare so deeply in the series. Macbeth is one of my all time favorite villains in any series, and the Puck episodes were almost always great.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Huzzah

Yeah, the first few episodes of The Goliath Chronicles are the only canon episodes, I think it was the first 4 episodes, after that, avoid at all costs.

One of my favorite thing in Gargoyles was the integration of Shakespeare so deeply in the series. Macbeth is one of my all time favorite villains in any series, and the Puck episodes were almost always great.

The Journey is the only episode that's cannon. Cause that's the only one Greg Weisman was involved with and follows his vision of the story. All the other episodes are not part of the cannon story.

Following the Journey,

Xanatos holds a Halloween Party at the Eyrie Building. And the gargoyles are also able to attend. Fox even makes costumes for them with Angela, Broadway, and Lexington all having Wizard of Oz costumes and Brooklyn's costume is Superman.

The night before the party, Elisa tells Goliath that she feels they should see other people because when he sees her future, she sees everything she can't have with him.

So Goliath and Brooklyn go to the Labyrinth to meet with the Clones, Brooklyn is about to talk to Delilah (a clone hybrid of Demona and Elisa) But Goliath instead invites her to party as his date.

Not long after Goliath and Brooklyn leave with Delilah, Thailog attacks and all the clones return to their original programming of "Obey Thailog". The group attacks the Gargoyles at the party. Thailog uses a wrist mounted knife and uses it to stab Goliath in the gut, and take blood samples from each of the Manhattan Clan so Savarious can create a Gargant-Mutagen.

Delilah then appears. Angelia yells "You don't have to obey him, your free." Delilah then asks if that is an order or if she really is free to do as she wishes. She then tells both Thailog she wants nothing to do with them because they both used her for their own reasons, and it's only when she was at the Labyrinth that she felt free. She then offers the choice to the other clones and Malibu (the Clone of Brooklyn) Hollywood (The Clone of Broadway) and Burbank (the Clone of Hudson) all agree that they want to Return to the Labyrinth with her.

Brentwood (Lexington's clone) however says he wants to stay with Thailog and both he and Thailog take off into the night.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

You know, I didn't really blame Brooklyn for being so anxious to find more Gar-girls, after Goliath's revelation about Avalon. Add in the choice of Broadway by---- and you get the feeling he was a bit jealous. It's natural. Even Lex pursued it for a time. (Though I suppose he did so because it was expected. I'm still not convince he should've been --- all along, given that he was also excited about the prospect of gar-girls.)