What These Cartoons Did To Turtles

[MikeandRaph87]

I don't see why the '87 cartoon has a negative/ embarassing view among some fans on the internet. It was aimed at kids and did a heck of a job. There are some silly aspects to it and like anything that interest us as kids we like to forget or blush about later on . I don't see why the black and white comics should ever dominate the Ninja Turtles property. If it did a good chuck of fans could care less about it and won't participate because the Ninja Turtles evolved beyond it. The black and white comics specifcally the early stuff should be adapted for wider appreciation just as it has wonderfully in the first film and again by adapting the comics into a cartoon. It was great because it allowed other media influence to take hold. The darker grittier stuff can only go so far and only cater to so many. I could never get behind the idea of them being murderers or Shredder and Rat King being dead for good with just random punks and mobs if not a Foot Clan without Shredder being the villains. The comics sales beyond the early Mirage are a testament to that. IDW realizes the few that actually perfer the black and white stuff if continued on as a comic would bring abysmal sales because so many of us fans could care less or just get issues here and there that interest them. I know I would be in the latter category and look for character like Shredder, Rat King, and Leatherhead to appear. The Ninja Turtles are a family friendly franchise that should cater to all ages not just a select few that like blood and guts. Adapting the other media into the comics is what should have been done ages ago. It works if allowed to and the comic is a runaway success because it is reaching to everyone not being subbornly dark and unadapting. The other media should always dominate and just nod to the black and white comics as being the first medium in which the Ninja Turtles appeared. Its been done and can be read over and over by those that want to. It does not have to be '87 cartoon influenced but I will take as much as possible since its the way I see my favorite heroes. Ignoring my bias preference its just simply other media needs to be the template for it to be successful. If some of the black and white comic influence is there its cool just should not be in the driver's seat. The Ninja Turtles should never have an overwhelming dark tone. Its just not what it is. It was intended as a one off PARODY in the first place and it evolved into the black and white comics and then from there an other media juggernaunt that introduced nearly all of us to the TMNT beginning with the '87 cartoon and then the '03 cartoon for the second generation.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

No you're right. It has a new set of problems. Phrases like "Booyakasha", bad anime moments that completely break flow, and an overall spastic tone. Reminds me a bit of Ultimate Spider-man in that regard. I struggled to finish just one episode of that series and even being Turtles I kind of had the same issue with this one. It's not for me, not in the vain I'm talking about, and doing everything to keep the public perception that TMNT are goofy party animals who fight with slap stick. Not as bad as the OT in that regard but not doing any favors.

Hm. I hate Ultimate Spider-Man too, but I love this new Turtles show and I don't see the comparison (Teen Titans yes, but not USM). Everyone's different.

However, I have to say you're wrong about "slap-stick fighting". Sometimes there's humorous moments during the fights, but not always. Have you seen "The Gauntlet"? They have a pretty intense throw down with Shredder, taking plenty cues from Vol. 1 #1.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Hm. I hate Ultimate Spider-Man too, but I love this new Turtles show and I don't see the comparison (Teen Titans yes, but not USM). Everyone's different.

However, I have to say you're wrong about "slap-stick fighting". Sometimes there's humorous moments during the fights, but not always. Have you seen "The Gauntlet"? They have a pretty intense throw down with Shredder, taking plenty cues from Vol. 1 #1.

I feel Spitfire won't make it to the part where the Turtles face Shredder and tune out when the talking pigeon appears.

[ToTheNines]

Pigeon Pete was pretty annoying. Still one of my favorite episodes.

[Cure]

The cartoons did the right thing.

Except for the 2003 version.

[NinjaPug]

Originally Posted by Cure

The cartoons did the right thing.

Except for the 2003 version.

Could you expand on what you mean by this?

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Cure

The cartoons did the right thing.

Except for the 2003 version.

The 2003 version did the most right thing except for humor in terms of still being a kids show.

[Coola Yagami]

Kinda feel the 2K3 cartoon ruined any chance of there ever being a Mirage-type series. To the non-comic fan a Mirage series would look a lot like 2K3 season 1, except even more serious and with blood, and Shredder dying in the first episode. By the time they get past all the Triceraton/Return to New York stuff and finally get to City at War, most of the fans would have tuned out.

Then there would be other fans wondering when Ch'Rell and other 2K3 exclusive characters will appear. Just like some fans back then saw 'Shredder Strikes Back' and assume they were ripping off the movie using Leo instead of Raph, they'd be confused with a Mirage-type series and assume it's just ripping off the 2K3 series.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Pigeon Pete was pretty annoying. Still one of my favorite episodes.

yeah, I just assume Spitfire would turn off the TV during the opening act and miss out on Shredder.

[CyberCubed]

I don't think anyone was dumb enough to believe there would be blood or killing in the 4kids show. It was a Saturday morning cartoon and we all knew it.

If the 4kids series didn't do anything new and just was episode adaptions without the violence it would have been terrible. They managed to make the show truly unique and stand out among other incarnations thanks to the new ideas it presented.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I don't think anyone was dumb enough to believe there would be blood or killing in the 4kids show. It was a Saturday morning cartoon and we all knew it.

If the 4kids series didn't do anything new and just was episode adaptions without the violence it would have been terrible. They managed to make the show truly unique and stand out among other incarnations thanks to the new ideas it presented.

Yeah, the Mirage series is just too serious for kids to get into. Especially City at War that feature Casey Jones growing up and falling for a pregnant woman, Splinter facing he has to be the animal that he is and eat fellow rats to avoid dying of starvation and the Turtles seriously questioning their role in the whole Hamato/Saki feud WITHOUT going into the traditional 'we're doing it because it's the right thing to do' mindset. I really don't see Leo saying 'I would gladly give my life for Splinter, but I won't live my life for him' (paraphrasing) in a kid's show. It's not just oooooh blood, and oooh they kill the people! It's just the overall serious tone without bumbling bad guys or Mike doing something funny every 5 minutes.

[Cure]

Originally Posted by NinjaPug

Could you expand on what you mean by this?

I mean I prefer the cartoons over Mirage.

Except for the 2003 version. I only barely prefer that over Mirage.

[Jester]

The thing is, the Turtles has always, in one way or another, been a "joke" franchise. The Mirage books took the completely absurd premise of teenage mutant ninja turtles and played it completely straight. As I've said before that kinda was the joke. A serious comic book written around the most absurd of concepts. Then the FW Cartoon came along and let the Turtles be in on the joke, and we got a show that was very self-aware and constantly poked fun at the absurd aspects of its own universe. There's always some comedic edge to the Turtles. To totally remove it weakens the franchise.

[Keroscene]

Originally Posted by Vivi

I guess it comes down to how much it matters to you that the public perception sees the tmnt in the vein of the source material. Is it important that people understand so that our obsessions are validated?

My answer to that will always be "no." ZariusTwo has already said the point better than I ever could, but essentially to view the original Mirage comics as the one "true" iteration of TMNT is problematic. Because the difference between Batman and TMNT is that every decision regarding the future of the TMNT franchise has been taken by at least one of the original co-creators. Which means every cartoon, every movie and every comic related to the franchise is a valid interpretation. TMNT was not snatched out of the creators hands by a mainstream comics company, it has been managed by the people who created it. And, as someone else has already said, even the original comics series was intended as parody.

Personally, I have nothing against grim and gritty. I don't think that Mirage was actually that good at being grim and gritty, the strongest issues for me were the ones where other creators came in to try something a little different. But if you're holding out for some movie in future which is true to the source material (and you're talking about a relatively small amount of the source material here), I think you need to look at the last 25 years of this franchise and appreciate that the most successful aspects of it have owed more to the original cartoon than they have to the original comic. I'm sorry you don't like that, but look: the Mirage issues still exist. You can still read them. They haven't gone anywhere. You're not obliged to read new comics or watch new movies or new cartoons.

The one part of the TMNT/Batman comparison that rings true to me is the fact that people really enjoyed that Adam West series. Whilst it wasn't in the spirit of the comics, it didn't prevent Frank Miller and Alan Moore and Grant Morrison from writing "grim and gritty" Batman comics in the future, and it did make the iconography of Batman well known (i.e. you don't need to have seen the movies or the cartoons or comics to know that Batman has a fancy car and sometimes a sidekick called Robin, because thanks to the Adam West show, this is just something that everybody knows). Similarly with TMNT, whether there is ever a comic or movie which replicates the original Mirage comics largely depends on whether there is significant demand for one (I doubt it), but what we have now is a cartoon that appeals to a lot of people and a comic series which is somewhere between the Mirage series and the movies in terms of tone. Why that should offend fans of the original Mirage comics when it is sanctioned by creators is beyond me.

EDITED TO ADD: Obviously this post is not aimed at Vivi but at the OP and those who have expressed a similar point of view.

[Berserker]

Originally Posted by Jester

The Mirage books took the completely absurd premise of teenage mutant ninja turtles and played it completely straight.

Modern Batman does the same thing. Guy dresses up like a bat and fights crime. Totally wacky and unbelievable.

The thing is though, Batman: Begins tried very hard to force it into the realm of believability, and they were able to do it with a combination of technological mumbo jumbo and a tight script. Everything Batman did seemed at least feasible, from your average movie-goer's point of view.

TMNT, on the other hand, can never do that. You can never make something like this any more serious than tongue-in-cheek.

[Konchadunga]

The problem with calling the 1987 show the equivalent of Adam West Batman is that the subsequent incarnations of Batman didn't operate out of contempt for the Adam West show. They brought back some stuff from it, like Mr. Freeze, Barbara Gordon as Bat Girl, etc. By contrast, Peter Laird's show jettisoned everything from Fred Wolf, to the effect that all of the fans of it wanted a backlash and got it. Like it or not, they have the same right to be reactionaries as the Mirage fans.

Now personally, I would, in fact, like an incarnation where the turtles are willing to kill when necessarily, but as Zarius said, there is nothing good about a series where everyone is just a shallow amoral assassin; playing it straight with turtles might be a nice joke for some, but it doesn't turn it into fine literature, and it's telling that the first issue was just intended as a cheap gag, but once it started selling better than anticipated, the series gained depth. That's what really made it better than the Fred Wolf series; it had character development, continuity that extended decades, and ability to tell ethical stories; getting rid of all the Fred Wolf stuff is not necessary to maintain those virtues, and nor is retaining a lot of blood, and making everyone just another assassin runs counter to it.

[Keroscene]

Also, isn't placing this thread in the "Nick TMNT Cartoon Discussion" forum unnecessarily antagonistic?

[Coola Yagami]

I don't think the Mirage Turtles were soulless assassins. Didn't they have some kind of honor? Their only victims were the Foot who were murderers as well. They didn't go around killing innocent people or bumbling super villains. Hell, they were content with just hauling Baxter off the jail in issue 2 and not outright killing him.

[CyberCubed]

A lot of people here must not read Mirage much because the turtles joke and goof around plenty in issues. Especially ones by Dan Berger, Michael Dooney and Kevin.

[Spitfire]

A lot has been said but instead of responding to it all I'll say us "boring" "pessimist" fans who truly enjoyed the comics don't have those anymore. Idw is no Mirage, not even Image. The buy out effectively ended the portions of the franchise I enjoy.

I don't want a blood bath I just want to see them written better. The turtles can be fun, soot is my favorite turtles film so clearly that's not an issue. It's the difference between a comedian and a rodeo clown to me. I don't fault the ot, its great for what it was, but it needed to evolve. This new series is not a step up. Yeah 2k3 isn't perfect either but its closer then this.

One day I may try to brave the new series again but I'll have to let the cynicism die down a bit.