Dragonball and Z discussion

[DarkFell]

Originally Posted by sdp

edit:jeeze, apparently they made a new Bardock special and now he became a super saiyan?

And yet Bardock was destroyed by Freeza along with countless other Saiya-Jin warriors that believed that the Super Saiya-Jin legend to be just a legend, and yet Bardock suddenly becomes a Super Saiya-Jin in a movie.

Does he obtain this power in Other World? That would make some sense in a movie.

[Netkeeper]

Originally Posted by sdp

My question was a rhetorical one but you guys missed the point. Akira Toriyama isn't consistent on any interviews not to mention he helped make GT. I don't love GT, I don't care for it any more than I do Z. I'm a casual Dragon Ball fan and haven't watched it since I was a kid besides clips here and there, I have no stakes in the franchise nor grudges with the creator, how am I being biased?

Apologies, this is the part of your post I'm referring to when I called you biased:

Originally Posted by sdp

Isn't canon anymore? Who made that decision? Akira Toriyama? The guy who can't even remember what SSJ2 is and mentioned all SSJ forms are just small powerups and only the first SSJ form is the real one? And forgets many things from the DB lore post-Freeza saga and retcons most of his ideas? Akira Toriyama is the George Lucas of Anime and it's more than clear that he can't outgrow the Freeza saga and that its where the story should've ended since he obviously only wrote the other parts because of money and now he's trying to retract them.

**** it, I actually enjoy GT as much as the post-Freeza sagas, and the new movies don't pose many big contradictions anyway as far as I recall, there are just as many contradictions in the actual show itself. It's not like the new movie was super consistent either with the lore and personalities, even if I did enjoy the movie. So yeah, it's clear that Toriyama doesn't care about continuity as much as fans do so I always find annoying internet people telling you that "GT isn't canon because Toriyama said so", irrelevant. It's only not canon in the manga.

You come across as a GT fan that doesn't like Toriyama. I myself am neutral to him, as I am most creators, that's just how I am because knowing too much about a creator usually crushes my enjoyment of their creations. And I'm a bit more than just a casual DB fan. You sound rather angry here, maybe I misread that.

Originally Posted by sdp

I just think it's silly fans shun GT just because they don't like it even though it was billed by Toei themselves as the continuation of Z and its content is used in DB videogames even today. I understand GT not having anything to do with the Manga canon but "Akira Toriyama's canon" is inconsistent not to mention he doesn't seem to care much for the franchise nor anything that happened to it post-namek saga in which anycase Dragon Ball Online is also "toriyama's continuation" to DBZ. The Battle of the god's movie doesn't really have big contradictions to GT anyway, you just have fans shouting it out as if vegeta's brother negates everything or whatever as if DB in general wasn't full of much bigger "canon" inconsistencies. Hell, the new movie has Freeza being a threat again because of some convoluted revival and "4 months of training". DB is dumb fun and its ridiculous that fans can get so angry about GT being canon or not when the creator doesn't take it that seriously and the show itself isn't consistent either.

edit:jeeze, apparently they made a new Bardock special and now he became a super saiyan?

Fans shun GT because they don't like it, yes, and I can't speak for all of them, but if GT were declared canon, I would respect that declaration. The fact of the matter is that Toriyama, as inconsistent as he is, has never regarded GT as canon.

Now, I haven't seen Battle of Gods yet since I missed it in the theatre [gdi living in the middle of nowhere did not help matters here] but from what I understand, DB fans are treating its existence as dis-continuity of GT because Toriyama actually worked on Battle of Gods, therefore makes it part of the canon. Since Toriyama never worked on the other movies [IIRC] they aren't canon, they're side stories like GT is, with minor exceptions being the Bardock special and the History of Trunks which was adapted from the manga.

Also, part of why the movies aren't canon is because you can't place many of them on the timeline properly without creating holes, so to be fair all of them are treated as non-canon since Toriyama didn't write them as manga chapters anyway -- GT just follows the same rule. Some people also don't consider filler to be canon either, particularly anything involving Garlic Jr. Fine assessment by me, I don't really care regardless [though when I'm being serious in my evaluation of the series I don't count Garlic Jr as canon either, and in fact I usually skip over those episodes when rewatching; I don't like them, and I get nothing out of watching them].

Sure, the series has its holes even without debating the continuity of the extra side stories, but that doesn't mean everything is considered canon by the fan community just because the main story has problems.

Also yes, there was an OVA where Bardock became a Super Saiyan. Now THAT piece of work, while very enjoyable to me as a huge Bardock fan, IS FULL OF HOLES.

[DarkFell]

Originally Posted by Netkeeper

Also yes, there was an OVA where Bardock became a Super Saiyan. Now THAT piece of work, while very enjoyable to me as a huge Bardock fan, IS FULL OF HOLES.

Thanks Net. I've only seen the first Bardock movie and it was the TFS Abridged version. I wasn't aware that there was an OVA in which Bardock transforms in it.

[Slade]

I actually hated that Bardock special where he became a Super Saiyan. Makes to big of a mess with the entire Super Saiyan legend and all that.

But then again, no it doesn't. Since

Spoiler:

time travel makes different timelines in this series

Spoilered just incase someone doesn't want to know.

[Netkeeper]

Originally Posted by DarkFell

Thanks Net. I've only seen the first Bardock movie and it was the TFS Abridged version. I wasn't aware that there was an OVA in which Bardock transforms in it.

I believe TFS also did an abridged version of this OVA. It's called Episode of Bardock.

Originally Posted by Slade

I actually hated that Bardock special where he became a Super Saiyan. Makes to big of a mess with the entire Super Saiyan legend and all that.

But then again, no it doesn't. Since

Spoiler:

time travel makes different timelines in this series

Spoilered just incase someone doesn't want to know.

That SOUNDS right to me, but it's been a while since I've seen it so I don't remember exactly what happened and what all the issues with it were.

[Slade]

Spoiler:

Well, when Frieza tosses his death ball, instead of it killing Bardock, he gets sent back in time. Some say because of the Kanassin's mind reading, though that'd make no sense. Anyway. He meets Chilled. Frieza's ancestor. Turns ssj and beats him. Tells him to beware the saiyan that can turn blonde. So people say that makes Bardock the original super saiyan.

[THGhost]

Chilled? Why must every member of Frieza's family have to be some terrible pun on things that are cold?

[Slade]

Cus that's how Toriyama did stuff. You know Saiyans are vegetables? Kakarot, Radditz, Broly...

[STORMSHADOW__210]

Loved dbz but had a bit of a slump after cell games. Am actually watching DB series for first time. About 50 episodes deep. Pretty cool. Lot more comedy

[CyberCubed]

Why do people not like the Majin Boo saga? I really enjoyed it.

You get to see nice filler arcs about Goku fighting Pikkon, Gohan in High School, Dabura is a cool villain, Majin Vegeta Vs. Goku, Super Saiyan 3 and Vegito and Gotenks, Majin Boo's forms and the epicness of them fighting a completely crazy overpowered villain who destroys the entire Earth.

Sure a lot of the older cast like Piccolo and Krillin become completely obsolete by this saga (as opposed to the others), but there's lots of good stuff.

[THGhost]

Originally Posted by Slade

Cus that's how Toriyama did stuff. You know Saiyans are vegetables? Kakarot, Radditz, Broly...

Oh yeah, I know all about that. At least that allows for some variation. But Frieza's family is just ridiculous.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Why do people not like the Majin Boo saga? I really enjoyed it.

You get to see nice filler arcs about Goku fighting Pikkon, Gohan in High School, Dabura is a cool villain, Majin Vegeta Vs. Goku, Super Saiyan 3 and Vegito and Gotenks, Majin Boo's forms and the epicness of them fighting a completely crazy overpowered villain who destroys the entire Earth.

Sure a lot of the older cast like Piccolo and Krillin become completely obsolete by this saga (as opposed to the others), but there's lots of good stuff.

I loved the Buu* saga growing up. I never saw the Kid Buu saga for some reason though, really need to get to that someday.

[Netkeeper]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Majin Vegeta Vs. Goku

Also known as Saiyan Foreplay: The Fight.

[DarkFell]

This spolier seems to sum up Ultimate Majin Buu quite effectively.

Spoiler:

I never saw much of the animated version of The Buu Saga, but I did read that volume of the manga; it was pretty cool stuff. Maybe I'll buy that DVD set whenever I get around to it.

[CyberCubed]

I was pretty excited for the Boo saga when it aired on Cartoon Network all those years ago. I knew it was the last saga of the series so it was pretty exciting knowing everything was "endgame" stuff.

I also loved that they skipped ahead a few years to see Gohan as an adult, as well as kid Trunks and Goten.

[MrTMNT2012]

Goku SSJ2 Vs. Majin Vegeta was in the Buu Saga, right? That's still the best fight in the entire Dragon Ball Series!

[shuriken]

Originally Posted by DarkFell

Does he obtain this power in Other World? That would make some sense in a movie.

No he goes back in time somehow and beats up on Frieza's ancestor. I saw the abridged version and it sounds pretty terrible. The first Bardock Special is pretty well done IMO.
SOO what's everyone's favorite movie? I like Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge.

[DarkFell]

My fave DBZ movie so far has been Wrath of the Dragon.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by STORMSHADOW__210

Loved dbz but had a bit of a slump after cell games. Am actually watching DB series for first time. About 50 episodes deep. Pretty cool. Lot more comedy

I've got a lot of fondness for both, but I definitely prefer the original Dragon Ball. It's got a really fun, infectious energy to it that I feel was lost the longer DBZ went on (though they recaptured it now and again - and I enjoyed "Battle of Gods" a lot for that reason). It also had a lot of fun characters who got increasingly marginalized the more the show became about exclusively about powering up (and up and up) and fighting the next apocalypse-level threat.

Then again, my first introduction to Dragon Ball was the 1995 dub, so I've got some bias toward that original concept of Kid Goku and the gang hunting for the Dragon Balls and fighting evil along the way. A big, fun big adventure where anything was possible. Hard to beat that.

[Slade]

Broly the Legebdary Super Saiyan. The Return of Coola is pretty good and Fusion Reborn.

[pennydreadful]

Originally Posted by shuriken

No he goes back in time somehow and beats up on Frieza's ancestor. I saw the abridged version and it sounds pretty terrible. The first Bardock Special is pretty well done IMO.
SOO what's everyone's favorite movie? I like Dead Zone and Cooler's Revenge.

I'd have to mark my fave as the first Bardock movie, hands-down... though I'm also very fond of The History of Trunks.

I think that we can all agree that Bio-Broly is probably the worst of all the DBZ movies.