Does the Fred Wolf show get unfairly blamed?

[CyberCubed]

Well that's why I also enjoy the 2k3 cartoon and the IDW comic. They're the most serious and plot-driven versions since Mirage. The Nick cartoon I'm fine with too, although I prefer the original cartoons drypan humor over Nick's "loud" humor.

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades, likely since they were children themselves, so I don't think it even matters.

I marathon the show every 2-3 years, and enjoy it as much every time. Aside from some of the crappier episodes, I still enjoy at least 75% of the shows total episodes. Just erase the European Vacation eps, and some of the crappier episodes from the middle seasons, and the rest is good.

I'd still say Season 1 is the best what OT could offer. I watched it when they released the turtle van dvd combo and never got to Season 10 since the later Seasons kinda dragged (some I binged watched on youtube like Leatherhead and Casey Jones episodes)..

But yeah Season 1 is awesome (story, animationwise) and it's the best thing if you want a quick feel what OT is all about.

[Leo656]

I don't always stop at Season One, but I often do. It just usually ends up being the "just right" amount of Old School TMNT. There were other great episodes all the way through that are worth it but I still get around to them less frequently.

There's something about being able to watch a full "Season" of the show in a quick afternoon, feel like you've seen the best and most satisfying part of something, and then go on and do something else with your day, having had a full experience. Later seasons had more and more misfires or skip-worthy ones, or ones you just had to be in the mood for, but Season One is good anytime.

Kinda have a soft spot for the Burger King Kids Club VHS episodes, though, not gonna lie. Like Sky Turtles and The Great Boldini and that sh*t. Those ended up being among my favorites simply because I watched them a thousand times.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades, likely since they were children themselves, so I don't think it even matters.

I marathon the show every 2-3 years, and enjoy it as much every time. Aside from some of the crappier episodes, I still enjoy at least 75% of the shows total episodes. Just erase the European Vacation eps, and some of the crappier episodes from the middle seasons, and the rest is good.

But I've watched a couple of episodes just last month and I didn't like them, so I don't think "Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades" seems like it would be accurate. If that was was true then they didn't even like the show when they were children.

It seems more likely to me that a lot of people grew up, sat down to watch a few episodes for the sake of nostalgia and simply didn't like the show as adults.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by neatoman

But I've watched a couple of episodes just last month and I didn't like them, so I don't think "Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades" seems like it would be accurate. If that was was true then they didn't even like the show when they were children.

It seems more likely to me that a lot of people grew up, sat down to watch a few episodes for the sake of nostalgia and simply didn't like the show as adults.

Ironically, I like the show more now than I did as a kid. Of course there are some things that do bug me about it, but that goes with any show or movie or book, but I do genuinely still like it. Actually, I hadn't seen any of the OT until I registered on this board.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by TMNT_Guy

I think the original cartoon is still one of the best depictions of the turtles, concept wise, even though the writing rarely followed through with it.

I will agree that many writers pull too much from the original series, I still think the first live action movie is still the best adaptation of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It took elements from the old cartoon, April being a reporter, multicolored headbands, etc, but it was first and foremost an adaptation of the comics that everything has come from. Sometimes I think TMNT writers concentrate too much on being new and different instead of trying to understand what made these stories and characters good in the first place.

I think all these reinterpretations over time are just going to confuse the public. Were the turtles accidentally mutated by a race of aliens, mutated by a disembodied brain from Dimension X, or were they human children reincarnated into turtles? Perhaps experiments to create the ultimate heroes? Is April a former lab assistant? A reporter? Archaeologist? How about a teenager with psychic powers? I feel that sooner or later, perhaps even now, it’s going to get to the point that no one can even agree on what these characters are anymore...let alone what the tone should be.

Until we get a movie/TV series that faithfully retells the events of the Mirage comics in great detail, I don’t think many die hard fans are ever going to respect the Fred Wolf series. Even if we do, there will still be those who detest it.

Man, the TMNT franchise having different characterizations and alignments in each incarnation is one of its most interesting things, but also one of its most annoying ones. You get to a point where you might as well just create a new character altogether than give a completely different personality to an already existent one. Otherwise it will just feel like glorified fanfiction, and as you've mentioned, it will confuse fans.

The problem isn't with Mirage fans respecting Fred Wolf or not since they're the minority and most Turtle fans aren't Mirage fans at all or are even aware of tis existence for the most part. I think it's mostly the Fred Wolf crowd that is the problem due to "THIS AREN'T THE TURTLES I GREW UP WITH!". And that's where having many different versions can cause such a division in the TMNT fandom. Most people will just be a fan of one or two versions. The ones who are into FW, 4Kids, Nick, IDW and Mirage are quite a minority.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades, likely since they were children themselves, so I don't think it even matters.

I marathon the show every 2-3 years, and enjoy it as much every time. Aside from some of the crappier episodes, I still enjoy at least 75% of the shows total episodes. Just erase the European Vacation eps, and some of the crappier episodes from the middle seasons, and the rest is good.

Most people who dislike the OT... they represent what? 3% of the fanbase? Because what I see more often is people who grew up with the OT praising it despite not having watched it in ages. The minority who dislikes the OT for not being faithful to Mirage among other things hardly has a voice.

Originally Posted by Leo656

I don't always stop at Season One, but I often do. It just usually ends up being the "just right" amount of Old School TMNT. There were other great episodes all the way through that are worth it but I still get around to them less frequently.

There's something about being able to watch a full "Season" of the show in a quick afternoon, feel like you've seen the best and most satisfying part of something, and then go on and do something else with your day, having had a full experience. Later seasons had more and more misfires or skip-worthy ones, or ones you just had to be in the mood for, but Season One is good anytime.

Kinda have a soft spot for the Burger King Kids Club VHS episodes, though, not gonna lie. Like Sky Turtles and The Great Boldini and that sh*t. Those ended up being among my favorites simply because I watched them a thousand times.

Season One was definitely great. Especially the first two episodes. I think I'll love Turtle tracks and Enter The Shredder forever. I can see myself still watching those episodes when I'm 70 and on my deathbed . The show would have been better if it had stayed the way it was in season 1 until the very end. And I'm sure it would have still been pretty successful. I mean, season one might be episodic, but it's not like it's totally different from the rest of the show until Red Sky. The difference is, the Turtles use their weapons to fight and Shredder seems more threatening and competent. As do Bebop and Rocksteady, for that matter. But hey, helicopter parents hated Ninja weapons.

I used to re-watch the FW series every Summer break until 2008. I did skip some episodes, though. But I still loved the show a lot back then.

FW due to its episodic nature, isn't the best show to marathon except for Season 1 and the final 3 seasons. It's an alright show for its time, but it had a lot of missed opportunities and untapped potential as well. I think the most annoying parts of it happen in season 4 and 5 when they were just focused on pumping out episode after episode. The comedy would be a bit cringy in those seasons at times. And I don't like how the city o New York got WAAAAAY too comfortable with the idea of 4 mutant turtles walking around the block.

Originally Posted by ssjup81

Ironically, I like the show more now than I did as a kid. Of course there are some things that do bug me about it, but that goes with any show or movie or book, but I do genuinely still like it. Actually, I hadn't seen any of the OT until I registered on this board.

I don't like it more now than when I was a kid. As a kid I sorta thought it was something badass. Although as I got into my teens, I was already deluding myself thinking that and didn't believe in it deep down. I still believed they'd kill Shredder in the last episode, though. Quite wishful thinking of me, but Red Sky did spice things up for a while. Plus, when I got into my teens, the 4Kids series had begun, and now that one seemed badass to me while FW was looking cheesy and childish. But looking back, 4Kids wasn't that badass either and was just another 20 minute toy advert.

I'll always have fond memories of FW but I dislike how the franchise and the media have hung on so much to it and how many TMNT fans think it's the be it all of the franchise and it should be the rule for it. Nothing wrong with taking some elements from it, but it shouldn't go down as the only remembered version of it. Let's see if the Nick series will be remembered in 20 years from now. As far as I know, it has had more commercial success than the 4Kids series thus far... in fact, would you guys believe it that several people still have no idea that there was a TMNt cartoon running from 2002/2003 to 2009? There's people who don't know about the Nick show too, but from my experience way more people know about the Nick toon than they do about the 4Kids one.

[twopinacoladas]

If you look back at it it was pretty goofy and light hearted but perfect for those 4-10 year old kids at the time. I think now watching it there are lots of good episodes and some that are good for nostalgia. Then others while not terribly bad that seemed to repeat the same story it was a good show at the time and it had its place.

If it wasn't for the show me and most people would never of gotten into TMNT and at least speaking for my self I wouldn't have been able to get into and appreciate the comics, films, 2k3 show and even the 2012 show I don't like all aspects of it as I think it is to mutant heavy but they have done some things nicely. Without the original cartoon the films probably wouldn't exist or the 2k3/2012 show etc.

[Candy Kappa]

I certainly enjoy FW a lot more as an adult after seeing the show in its entirety (and original budding), a lot of the jokes and the dry humor resonates more.

As a kid I loathed the FW with a fiery passion.

[Zak The Neutrino]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades, likely since they were children themselves, so I don't think it even matters.

I marathon the show every 2-3 years, and enjoy it as much every time. Aside from some of the crappier episodes, I still enjoy at least 75% of the shows total episodes. Just erase the European Vacation eps, and some of the crappier episodes from the middle seasons, and the rest is good.

It depends on how much you watch. Season 1 is very enjoyable but by season 3 it gets pretty bad. I've had several friends go back and watch them and they can't even stand season 1.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Zak The Neutrino

It depends on how much you watch. Season 1 is very enjoyable but by season 3 it gets pretty bad. I've had several friends go back and watch them and they can't even stand season 1.

Season 3 is still quite good, imo. Season 4 not so much. Half of the season 4 episodes are quite skippable. Plus, many of them have pretty bad animation. Plus, the European vacation episodes were made at the time, so technically they're part of season 4, even though they aired between season 6 and 7 in many places. And most of those European vacation episodes were mediocre. So that's less points for season 4.

The second "worst" season of the show was season 9, imo.

[Zak The Neutrino]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Season 3 is still quite good, imo. Season 4 not so much. Half of the season 4 episodes are quite skippable. Plus, many of them have pretty bad animation. Plus, the European vacation episodes were made at the time, so technically they're part of season 4, even though they aired between season 6 and 7 in many places. And most of those European vacation episodes were mediocre. So that's less points for season 4.

The second "worst" season of the show was season 9, imo.

I think I'm thinking of season 4. Whenever I try to watch the series I get stalled out around there.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Zak The Neutrino

I think I'm thinking of season 4. Whenever I try to watch the series I get stalled out around there.

Both had almost 100 episodes in total, so it's understandable.

For reference, If the technodrome is at the Earth core, it's a season 3 episode. If it's in Dimension X, then it's a season 4 episode.

[Wesley]

There were a lot of great, average and bad episodes. One of the problems with the show is that it went on for too long and too many episodes were made. It could've been condensed into five seasons. I think that the shorter seasons of the cartoon like one and seven were the best.

A lot of episodes aren't as good as I remembered them as a kid. I watched the Cowabunga Classics DVD nearly a year ago and thought half of the eps on it were boring and too silly. Those eps proved that Turtles Forever got the personalities of the OT characters nearly right.

The OT started out good, but went downhill after season one, though the later seasons had some decent episodes. It tried to get back on track around season 7, but it was too late, as a lot of fans had outgrown it at that point and moved on to other shows.

[CyberCubed]

Season 3 is actually how people remember the OT the most besides Season 1. Season 3 was when the show was at the height of its popularity ratings wise and was the most rerun season on TV. The bulk of Season 3 is very good and fun, with only a few awful episodes, (the one with the Irma robot), the recap ep, and the one where Mike turns human for an ep.

Season 4 is a bit more of a mixed bag since this is when the show was starting to get repetitive, but there are still some great episodes there. Some of the weakest episodes of the series are in this season, but it still has some good ones.

Seasons 5 and 6, again, have a mix of great episodes and some dull episodes. But since they're shorter seasons overall there's less overball bad episodes.

Season 7 was the best the show was since Season 1. All 13 episodes are pretty fun and the show has more action this season.

Seasons 8-10 are of course the final seasons, and this is where the show was revamped.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Season 3 is actually how people remember the OT the most besides Season 1. Season 3 was when the show was at the height of its popularity ratings wise and was the most rerun season on TV. The bulk of Season 3 is very good and fun, with only a few awful episodes, (the one with the Irma robot), the recap ep, and the one where Mike turns human for an ep.

Season 4 is a bit more of a mixed bag since this is when the show was starting to get repetitive, but there are still some great episodes there. Some of the weakest episodes of the series are in this season, but it still has some good ones.

Seasons 5 and 6, again, have a mix of great episodes and some dull episodes. But since they're shorter seasons overall there's less overball bad episodes.

Season 7 was the best the show was since Season 1. All 13 episodes are pretty fun and the show has more action this season.

Seasons 8-10 are of course the final seasons, and this is where the show was revamped.

I agree with you for the most part. I'd say that the first 3 seasons are the most memorable ones of the FW show. It's quite incredible how so many people still remember April turning into a cat and the Punk Frogs debut episode after all these years.

I find seasons 8 and 10 to be pretty good as well. 9 not so much. It wasn't bad by any mean, but it wasn't that great as a whole. I prefer "mad" Dregg from season 10. He got more interesting and more ruthless in the final season. Season 9 had Split-Second though. A hell of an episode with a great one shot villain. Plus, the Turtles' mutations were actually useful for once. But in the Doomquest episode, they just held them down.

Season one was the best season of the show followed by season 7. Now as for the 3rd best season... I'm not so sure. 2 and 3 were both pretty good, but I also feel tempted to award seasons 8 and 10 the 3rd place on the podium. But the show was revamped and quite different by then, so it's hard to compare.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So making them overpowered hulks makes them all that interesting? They should be competent, sure, but not overpowered to the point where they're able to take down 10 other opponents at the same time.

IDW's Bebop and Rocksteady are largely there for nostalgia the most.

Nope, Bebop and Rocksteady have only been used in IDW for specific purposes. You know what versions of B&R are largely nostalgia driven and nothing else? Nick TMNT. They're barely anything like the original.

And hell yeah, I should be terrified at the thought of the TMNT going up against them. And I have been, each time. After "New Mutant Order", when I saw Donatello was going up against them all by himself, I just shook my head sadly and said, "This is going to end tragically." And it sure as hell did.

And then I was terrified again in the Gauntlet battle... four Turtles against Bebop and Rocksteady plus Koya and Bludgeon? Holy sh!t, this sh!t just got real and hit the fan all at once!

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The thing is strip away their humor than why use them? Replace Bebop/Rocksteady with any other animal duo and there would be no difference. I mean we've seen tons of other mutant pairs in the series and they're completely different characters.

Bebop/Rocksteady work because they're supposed to be comic relief. Otherwise replace them with anyone else like Dogpound/Fishface, or Bludgeon/Koya from IDW, or Rahzar/Tokka...and you get anyone else.

IDW B&R are hilarious, from smashing open an ATM so they can pay for breakfast, to "stupid Lobster missed" to their fight with Mikey and Raph, to worrying about ghosts in "City Fall"... every time, they're a laugh riot.

And nothing is more terrifying for me than a funny slaughterhouse. It's like the Joker, except more comedic. Everything's funny to me, even smashing open a turtle shell and saying "gross" at what I see! IDW is what Bebop and Rocksteady always should have been.

Except for the cement truck fight in "Shredder is Splintered", or whatever, I could never take them seriously in Fred Wolf. They were just wasted potential.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades, likely since they were children themselves, so I don't think it even matters.

I marathon the show every 2-3 years, and enjoy it as much every time. Aside from some of the crappier episodes, I still enjoy at least 75% of the shows total episodes. Just erase the European Vacation eps, and some of the crappier episodes from the middle seasons, and the rest is good.

I've watched probably ten episodes of the Fred Wolf show in the last year, and watched the first two episodes of Season 1 with my son last week. I still hate it. I outgrew it, because "dumb goofy fun" is no longer fun for me.

So nah, you're wrong.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Nope, Bebop and Rocksteady have only been used in IDW for specific purposes. You know what versions of B&R are largely nostalgia driven and nothing else? Nick TMNT. They're barely anything like the original.

They're still too overpowered in IDW. It literally took 10 characters to bring them down plus a building. And the second time only cause Metalhead blew up on them. Not even Koya or Bludgeon are portrayed like that. It seems IDW tried to compensate for them being pushovers in the OT to making them nearly invincible, which I don't think was the best of ideas.

Nick's Bebop/Rocksteady are OK, but at least I can appreciate they tried to do something different with them.

I've watched probably ten episodes of the Fred Wolf show in the last year, and watched the first two episodes of Season 1 with my son last week. I still hate it. I outgrew it, because "dumb goofy fun" is no longer fun for me.

So nah, you're wrong.

What did you hate about the first two episodes? They were quite good and entertaining.

IDW also turned Krang into a generic alien conqueror, with his only defining trait being his loyalty to the Utroms. Seriously place IDW Shredder and Krang side by side when you hear them speak, they almost have the same exact personality. Shredder says, "Don't fail me again!" Krang threatens Baxter and Fugitoid the same way. They both act arrogant and then cause their own downfall.

Krang and Shredder nearly have the same personality in IDW, if it wasn't for their different backstories, you couldn't tell the difference. This was especially noticeable when they met for the first time.

[shuriken]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I don't always stop at Season One, but I often do. It just usually ends up being the "just right" amount of Old School TMNT. There were other great episodes all the way through that are worth it but I still get around to them less frequently.

There's something about being able to watch a full "Season" of the show in a quick afternoon, feel like you've seen the best and most satisfying part of something, and then go on and do something else with your day, having had a full experience. Later seasons had more and more misfires or skip-worthy ones, or ones you just had to be in the mood for, but Season One is good anytime.

Kinda have a soft spot for the Burger King Kids Club VHS episodes, though, not gonna lie. Like Sky Turtles and The Great Boldini and that sh*t. Those ended up being among my favorites simply because I watched them a thousand times.

I agree. The thing about the OT with it's 193 or (197?) episode run is that there are a good chunk of episodes that are objectively terrible. And I've seen some of the eps recently. That fish one is garbage, so are a lot of the middle season episodes. Season 1-3 are my fave IMO, then the red Sky eps (sue me). A lot of it is preference but honestly the series doesn't hold up that well.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

They're still too overpowered in IDW. It literally took 10 characters to bring them down plus a building. And the second time only cause Metalhead blew up on them. Not even Koya or Bludgeon are portrayed like that. It seems IDW tried to compensate for them being pushovers in the OT to making them nearly invincible, which I don't think was the best of ideas.

Nick's Bebop/Rocksteady are OK, but at least I can appreciate they tried to do something different with them.

I do agree that their too overpowered in IDW simply because it is going to be difficult to continue believably using them. But it does also allow for some great "brain over brawn" fight sequences... I think Mondo electrocuting them should have worked; that would have kept it quasi-believable.

However, remember: Bebop and Rocksteady are so far the only human-mutant hybrids. I can accept their level of insane power due to this reason... it will be interesting to see what their next appearance is.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

What did you hate about the first two episodes? They were quite good and entertaining.

The pizza, the "Ninja Pizza", the endless neat for silly jokes like "Is it a death threat?" No, worse... the check." The entire building filling with water, the granny with a tommy gun, the "this rope was made in Japan... see? Made in Japan"... basically, every time the show forced a joke. Every single time.

I did like Bebop and Rocksteady getting locked in the zoo, and the big robot fight, and the Technodrome's endless traps... that's about it, really.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

IDW also turned Krang into a generic alien conqueror, with his only defining trait being his loyalty to the Utroms. Seriously place IDW Shredder and Krang side by side when you hear them speak, they almost have the same exact personality. Shredder says, "Don't fail me again!" Krang threatens Baxter and Fugitoid the same way. They both act arrogant and then cause their own downfall.

Krang and Shredder nearly have the same personality in IDW, if it wasn't for their different backstories, you couldn't tell the difference. This was especially noticeable when they met for the first time.

Krang is motivated by his father's gluttonous wastes of the Utrom war machine, empire, supplies, and lives all for glory; he seeks to rebuild the homeworld they lost and to provide a new sanctuary for his people. He grew up from pampered prince to independent soldier and hero to savior of an entire species. He is motivated solely to create New Utrominon. His is a story of redemption gone wrong.

Oroku Saki is motivated by power, anger, and hatred. He hates his father for holding him back and then trying to kill him, for being controlled by forces he doesn't understand, and sees everything around him as betrayal: Yoshi, his father, his former master. He demands absolute loyalty and shows no warmth or loyalty in return; he is cold, calculated, and merciless.

The only thing they have in common is that they both use people for their own ends and punish failure. And how many villains of ANY series can you name that don't have those traits?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

On a slightly different tangent, a couple of you made the insightful observation that people such as myself RESENT Fred Wolf because the franchise has never been able to grow away from its Fred Wolf public perception.

That's absolutely it; I hadn't realized that most of my loathing for the series would go away if a public movie franchise was allowed to draw from ANY other source. But that hasn't been the case since Peter Laird was working with 4Kids, and never will be again.

The Nick series frustrates me because it tries to do its own thing but spectacularly fails to tell an overarching narrative with any consequence; some of its darkest and most serious aspects get glossed over for filler episodes, Mikey is a braindead idiot, Donnie has been reduced to genius lovesick puppy, April and Casey are terrible, and mutations just happen because toys. Bebop and Rocksteady, Rahzar, Karai... the show seemed to lose ANY interest in telling the story of Miwa.

I like some of what Nick brings to the table, mostly its new characters like Fishface, Dogpound, and Tiger Claw, but its storytelling is this weird hybrid of Fred Wolf goofiness and (occasionally) flickers of Mirage. But it seemingly always prefers to showcase new toys (sorry, one-off characters), make jokes, and prolong story arcs like Miwa and Donny/April with no desire for resolution.

Fred Wolf, meanwhile, is great for creating a bunch of concepts that deserve a more serious and character-driven revamp, but too much of it is relegated to pizza jokes and goofiness. I want to see more characters get the IDW treatment like Bebop, Rocksteady, and Mutagen Man did; I want to see good renditions of Dirtbag and Groundchuck, the Punk Frogs, Antrax and Scumbug, Ace Duck, and all those other great action figures. But even the Punk Frogs got screwed over by becoming a Napoleon Dynamite parody...

Long story short: Except for IDW, the best days of TMNT storytelling are long over.