Does the Fred Wolf show get unfairly blamed? - Page 3

*CyberCubed* · 02-12-2016, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatoman

I'm honestly not sure Bebop and Rocksteady are liked for the way they were written in the cartoon, it seems more likely that it simply has to do with their prominence in the cartoon and the nostalgia of the cartoon.

Bebop and Rocksteady had very funny moments and dialogue in the cartoon. Their banter with Shredder is great in many episode. The episodes they star in or have huge roles are also pretty funny.

Also a trio of bumbling villains was pretty common in kids cartoons at the time. Shredder/Bebop/Rocksteady are like Team Rocket from Pokemon, or Emperor Pilaf and his minions from Dragonball. They're comedic villains who try too hard to be evil and are thwarted every time.

*Bry* · 02-12-2016, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

My 2 cents? Ch'rell is just a serious take on Krang and is what Krang SHOULD be.

Case in point, and weird to agree with Cubed (

), but: IDW Krang does have more in common with Ch'rell than Fred Wolf Krang. Classic Krang only works as-is in a campy, self-aware comedy universe like Fred Wolf. Go for anything "deeper" than that (like you really should for the long-term viability of the property) and Classic Krang doesn't really work at all anymore.

Incidentally, I've grown to vastly prefer Ch'rell and IDW Krang.

~~Leo656~~ · 02-12-2016, 09:58 PM

"Duuhhhh" and "You'se guys" is "Great Banter", apparently. Imagine that.

*CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy* · 02-12-2016, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

"Duuhhhh" and "You'se guys" is "Great Banter", apparently. Imagine that.

Don't forget "say yer prayers, toitles." That's the extent of their dialogue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bry

Case in point, and weird to agree with Cubed (

), but: IDW Krang does have more in common with Ch'rell than Fred Wolf Krang. Classic Krang only works as-is in a campy, self-aware comedy universe like Fred Wolf. Go for anything "deeper" than that (like you really should for the long-term viability of the property) and Classic Krang doesn't really work at all anymore.

Incidentally, I've grown to vastly prefer Ch'rell and IDW Krang.

Absolutely.

*CyberCubed* · 02-12-2016, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

"Duuhhhh" and "You'se guys" is "Great Banter", apparently. Imagine that.

Except that's not how they usually talk in the OT at all. They had a lot of funny dialogue while interacting with Shredder, the Turtles, or each other.

~~Leo656~~ · 02-12-2016, 10:10 PM

"Funny" as in, "A groan with a chuckle at the end of it while rubbing your temples as your brain does its best to digest the barrage of horrible puns and 'clever' wordplay", then, yeah, "Funny".

All the dialog on that cartoon is "funny", yeah... in the "Gong Show"/"Oh, man, get the hook!" kind of way. Not "Haha, that's clever and well-written" funny. I mean, that's fine, they were aiming for their audience, great, just call it what it is.

Puns are the lowest form of humor and that show is guilty as F*CK.

*CyberCubed* · 02-12-2016, 10:12 PM

The show was very nuanced, and had sophisticated layers of depth and intricate humor. It was filled with satire, drypan humor, and on the fly moments.

Its pretty evident from anyone who watches it.

*CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy* · 02-12-2016, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Except that's not how they usually talk in the OT at all. They had a lot of funny dialogue while interacting with Shredder, the Turtles, or each other.

You wanna see Bebop and Rocksteady done right? Go read their micro-issue or "Attack on Technodrome" again. THAT'S what the public should get in a movie, not the Fred Wolf "I want my mommy" comedy bullsh*t.

*CyberCubed* · 02-12-2016, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

You wanna see Bebop and Rocksteady done right? Go read their micro-issue or "Attack on Technodrome" again. THAT'S what the public should get in a movie, not the Fred Wolf "I want my mommy" comedy bullsh*t.

That was a good issue, but I don't care for them how they are in the main ongoing as much. Saying things like, "Rock" and "Bopster" and just talking about how tough they are. The writer for the micro was a lot better.

Bebop and Rocksteady have much more memorable banter in the OT.

*CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy* · 02-12-2016, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

That was a good issue, but I don't care for them how they are in the main ongoing as much. Saying things like, "Rock" and "Bopster" and just talking about how tough they are. The writer for the micro was a lot better.

Bebop and Rocksteady have much more memorable banter in the OT.

No, they really don't.

Y'know what is memorable?

Taking down the Turtles, Splinter, Nobody, Alopex, and the Mutanimals without breaking a sweat. Not enough?

SMASHING DONATELLO TO PIECES WITH A SLEDGEHAMMER.

*CyberCubed* · 02-12-2016, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

No, they really don't.

Y'know what is memorable?

Taking down the Turtles, Splinter, Nobody, Alopex, and the Mutanimals without breaking a sweat. Not enough?

SMASHING DONATELLO TO PIECES WITH A SLEDGEHAMMER.

So making them overpowered hulks makes them all that interesting? They should be competent, sure, but not overpowered to the point where they're able to take down 10 other opponents at the same time.

IDW's Bebop and Rocksteady are largely there for nostalgia the most.

~~Leo656~~ · 02-12-2016, 10:41 PM

I haven't read IDW but I agree that a "proper" take on Bebop and Rocksteady would rather show them as monstrous beasts who are dangerous, not seemingly-dangerous villains who are actually dumb as a box of rocks and a couple of whiny babies, besides.

I wouldn't even mind a version where their humanity was overriden by their bestial side and their animal bloodlust, and they couldn't even talk, period. Maybe grunt a few short words, like names or whatever, but that's all. All they'd do is terrorize and kill because that's all they know how to do anymore after the mutation destroyed their human minds. I'd love that. And if they have to talk, at least limit their vocabulary a little bit. Make them a little more bestial than human, to heighten the contrast between them and the Turtles beyond "Good Mutants" and "Evil Mutants". Then the characters become infinitely more interesting. "We're gonna mash you toitles inta mush!" can stay the f*ck home, that sh*t was corny and played out when I was 9.

The problem with Bebop and Rocksteady is, they look like bad-asses, but they're pussies, at least in FW. They were the ultimate "Good setup, awful follow-through". They introduce them like they're going to be such a big deal, and instead they're buffoons immediately. We know they're ultimately no threat to the Turtles because if you left those two alone with a can of soup, they'd somehow knock themselves unconscious with it, so they're not even "villains" anymore, they're a bump in the road, mere "time-wasting filler as the Turtles go from Point A to Z, plot-wise." Even as a kid I hated that. I've always hated when cool-looking villains get wasted as comic relief. I've long defended Bebop and Rocksteady as viable characters but I feel the original versions are nothing but a rough sketch of something potentially much better and more satisfying.

*CyberCubed* · 02-12-2016, 10:51 PM

The thing is strip away their humor than why use them? Replace Bebop/Rocksteady with any other animal duo and there would be no difference. I mean we've seen tons of other mutant pairs in the series and they're completely different characters.

Bebop/Rocksteady work because they're supposed to be comic relief. Otherwise replace them with anyone else like Dogpound/Fishface, or Bludgeon/Koya from IDW, or Rahzar/Tokka...and you get anyone else.

Cyndaquilfan123 · 02-12-2016, 11:04 PM

Honestly, I've only seen the First Season of the Fred Wolf show, and I liked it. But, It's shaped the public's view of the Turtles. There are kids at my school that wear TMNT stuff because it's green. (Our Class Color is Green) They probably don't even know there's a Nick cartoon...

~~Leo656~~ · 02-12-2016, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The thing is strip away their humor than why use them? Replace Bebop/Rocksteady with any other animal duo and there would be no difference. I mean we've seen tons of other mutant pairs in the series and they're completely different characters.

Bebop/Rocksteady work because they're supposed to be comic relief. Otherwise replace them with anyone else like Dogpound/Fishface, or Bludgeon/Koya from IDW, or Rahzar/Tokka...and you get anyone else.

Because once you're not 8 anymore, "comic relief villains" are a worthless waste of time? I think that's good enough.

Bad guys are supposed to be BAD GUYS. The one and only reason Bebop and Rocksteady were comic relief in the FIRST place is because of the limits that contemporary standards and practices had placed on a children's show. If they had first been created as characters for ANY other media, you can bet that they would have been much closer to what I've described above. So we shouldn't be married to the idea that they HAVE to be Dumb Comic Relief. That was due to the necessary restrictions of the medium, not because "that's the BEST way to use those characters". I'd argue "If all they're going to be is fodder, too dumb to tie their own shoes and no real threat to the Turtles whatsoever, THEN why use them at all?" is the much stronger argument. You could keep about 9/10s of everything "important" about Bebop and Rocksteady, and still be faithful while making them an actual, credible threat to the Turtles, not merely two guys whose job is to show up, make puns, then get hit and fall down. That's a colossal waste of two visually-interesting characters.

If your "villain" doesn't make the heroic characters go, "Oh, sh*t" when they face each other, your villain sucks and needs to go back to the drawing board. "Comic relief villains". Feh.

Then the story's literally a waste of time because there's no actual conflict, because there is no threat, and the story becomes filler. Who needs that? Those are the absolute worst kinds of throwaway characters, and I honestly think it's a disservice to Bebop and Rocksteady to keep them in that kind of little "box". They look bad-ass, they should BE bad-ass.

*Shark_Blade* · 02-13-2016, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groverman62

I should this first, I never watched the 80s show it was before my time so I can t agree or disagree with anyone on how good or bad it is. But I have noticed a lot of resentment towards it.

People dislike the impact its had and think it has too much hold over the franchise today. And to me thats not really something for it to be held responsible for. Thats the fault of the people that the franchise is currently in the hands of.

What does everyone else think?

It got blamed by some (very small, minuscule, insignificant number of) people for spreading tmnt-mania? Ha!

Who cares.

We got IDW Bebop and Rocksteady (and Nick and Bay film versions of them) because of OT. We got Megan Fox as April in iconic yellow because of OT (heck all Aprils have their trademark yellow basically due to OT). We're getting Krang in Android body in upcoming film due to OT. Baxter became a fly in Nick due to OT. Party Wagon, Irma, etc.. there's so much more!

We owe OT so much and it's here to stay permanently (thank God).

It's pretty much the benchmark for the franchise now.

TMNT_Guy · 02-13-2016, 01:05 AM

I think the original cartoon is still one of the best depictions of the turtles, concept wise, even though the writing rarely followed through with it.

I will agree that many writers pull too much from the original series, I still think the first live action movie is still the best adaptation of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It took elements from the old cartoon, April being a reporter, multicolored headbands, etc, but it was first and foremost an adaptation of the comics that everything has come from. Sometimes I think TMNT writers concentrate too much on being new and different instead of trying to understand what made these stories and characters good in the first place.

I think all these reinterpretations over time are just going to confuse the public. Were the turtles accidentally mutated by a race of aliens, mutated by a disembodied brain from Dimension X, or were they human children reincarnated into turtles? Perhaps experiments to create the ultimate heroes? Is April a former lab assistant? A reporter? Archaeologist? How about a teenager with psychic powers? I feel that sooner or later, perhaps even now, it’s going to get to the point that no one can even agree on what these characters are anymore...let alone what the tone should be.

Until we get a movie/TV series that faithfully retells the events of the Mirage comics in great detail, I don’t think many die hard fans are ever going to respect the Fred Wolf series. Even if we do, there will still be those who detest it.

~~Leo656~~ · 02-13-2016, 01:50 AM

Here, you've earned this.

*CyberCubed* · 02-13-2016, 02:05 AM

Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades, likely since they were children themselves, so I don't think it even matters.

I marathon the show every 2-3 years, and enjoy it as much every time. Aside from some of the crappier episodes, I still enjoy at least 75% of the shows total episodes. Just erase the European Vacation eps, and some of the crappier episodes from the middle seasons, and the rest is good.

~~Leo656~~ · 02-13-2016, 02:12 AM

Is it really that hard to believe that some people just don't dig "silly"? I don't think it is.

It's fine that you like it as much now as you did then. A lot of people outgrew it and there's nothing wrong with that either. Lots of us would prefer to see some of those elements from the cartoon done better elsewhere. Since it's 30 years later and everything.

02-13-2016, 01:05 AM	#57
TMNT_Guy Stone Warrior Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Home, PA Posts: 620	I think the original cartoon is still one of the best depictions of the turtles, concept wise, even though the writing rarely followed through with it. I will agree that many writers pull too much from the original series, I still think the first live action movie is still the best adaptation of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It took elements from the old cartoon, April being a reporter, multicolored headbands, etc, but it was first and foremost an adaptation of the comics that everything has come from. Sometimes I think TMNT writers concentrate too much on being new and different instead of trying to understand what made these stories and characters good in the first place. I think all these reinterpretations over time are just going to confuse the public. Were the turtles accidentally mutated by a race of aliens, mutated by a disembodied brain from Dimension X, or were they human children reincarnated into turtles? Perhaps experiments to create the ultimate heroes? Is April a former lab assistant? A reporter? Archaeologist? How about a teenager with psychic powers? I feel that sooner or later, perhaps even now, it’s going to get to the point that no one can even agree on what these characters are anymore...let alone what the tone should be. Until we get a movie/TV series that faithfully retells the events of the Mirage comics in great detail, I don’t think many die hard fans are ever going to respect the Fred Wolf series. Even if we do, there will still be those who detest it. __________________

02-12-2016, 09:58 PM	#43
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	"Duuhhhh" and "You'se guys" is "Great Banter", apparently. Imagine that.

02-12-2016, 10:10 PM	#46
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	"Funny" as in, "A groan with a chuckle at the end of it while rubbing your temples as your brain does its best to digest the barrage of horrible puns and 'clever' wordplay", then, yeah, "Funny". All the dialog on that cartoon is "funny", yeah... in the "Gong Show"/"Oh, man, get the hook!" kind of way. Not "Haha, that's clever and well-written" funny. I mean, that's fine, they were aiming for their audience, great, just call it what it is. Puns are the lowest form of humor and that show is guilty as F*CK.

02-12-2016, 10:12 PM	#47
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,871	The show was very nuanced, and had sophisticated layers of depth and intricate humor. It was filled with satire, drypan humor, and on the fly moments. Its pretty evident from anyone who watches it.

02-12-2016, 10:41 PM	#52
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I haven't read IDW but I agree that a "proper" take on Bebop and Rocksteady would rather show them as monstrous beasts who are dangerous, not seemingly-dangerous villains who are actually dumb as a box of rocks and a couple of whiny babies, besides. I wouldn't even mind a version where their humanity was overriden by their bestial side and their animal bloodlust, and they couldn't even talk, period. Maybe grunt a few short words, like names or whatever, but that's all. All they'd do is terrorize and kill because that's all they know how to do anymore after the mutation destroyed their human minds. I'd love that. And if they have to talk, at least limit their vocabulary a little bit. Make them a little more bestial than human, to heighten the contrast between them and the Turtles beyond "Good Mutants" and "Evil Mutants". Then the characters become infinitely more interesting. "We're gonna mash you toitles inta mush!" can stay the fck home, that sht was corny and played out when I was 9. The problem with Bebop and Rocksteady is, they look like bad-asses, but they're pussies, at least in FW. They were the ultimate "Good setup, awful follow-through". They introduce them like they're going to be such a big deal, and instead they're buffoons immediately. We know they're ultimately no threat to the Turtles because if you left those two alone with a can of soup, they'd somehow knock themselves unconscious with it, so they're not even "villains" anymore, they're a bump in the road, mere "time-wasting filler as the Turtles go from Point A to Z, plot-wise." Even as a kid I hated that. I've always hated when cool-looking villains get wasted as comic relief. I've long defended Bebop and Rocksteady as viable characters but I feel the original versions are nothing but a rough sketch of something potentially much better and more satisfying.

02-12-2016, 10:51 PM	#53
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,871	The thing is strip away their humor than why use them? Replace Bebop/Rocksteady with any other animal duo and there would be no difference. I mean we've seen tons of other mutant pairs in the series and they're completely different characters. Bebop/Rocksteady work because they're supposed to be comic relief. Otherwise replace them with anyone else like Dogpound/Fishface, or Bludgeon/Koya from IDW, or Rahzar/Tokka...and you get anyone else.

02-12-2016, 11:04 PM	#54
Cyndaquilfan123 Foot Soldier Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 175	Honestly, I've only seen the First Season of the Fred Wolf show, and I liked it. But, It's shaped the public's view of the Turtles. There are kids at my school that wear TMNT stuff because it's green. (Our Class Color is Green) They probably don't even know there's a Nick cartoon...

02-13-2016, 01:50 AM	#58
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Here, you've earned this.

02-13-2016, 02:05 AM	#59
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,871	Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades, likely since they were children themselves, so I don't think it even matters. I marathon the show every 2-3 years, and enjoy it as much every time. Aside from some of the crappier episodes, I still enjoy at least 75% of the shows total episodes. Just erase the European Vacation eps, and some of the crappier episodes from the middle seasons, and the rest is good.

02-13-2016, 02:12 AM	#60
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Is it really that hard to believe that some people just don't dig "silly"? I don't think it is. It's fine that you like it as much now as you did then. A lot of people outgrew it and there's nothing wrong with that either. Lots of us would prefer to see some of those elements from the cartoon done better elsewhere. Since it's 30 years later and everything.