Does the Fred Wolf show get unfairly blamed? - Page 7

*neatoman* · 02-18-2016, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkLightDragon

Nah, he can't take actual criticism of stuff he likes.

That's kinda what I meant.

DarkLightDragon · 02-18-2016, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatoman

That's kinda what I meant.

Ah, gotcha. Pardon any unintentional patronizing on my part then.

*pferreira* · 02-18-2016, 10:41 AM

For some people they can't go back and enjoy shows like Ninja Turtles, Real Ghostbusters, He-Man, Thundercats, etc. It just depends on the person. I still find the Fred Wolf cartoon enjoyable, fun, imaginative and humorous. Shock horror I do believe the Fred Wolf cartoon is still great.

cammy85 · 02-18-2016, 11:09 AM

Coincidentally, I'm back on a He-man kick right now, having blown through the Top 10 and watching the movie last night.

But yes, each season has its own positives and negatives. I do want to break out my sets but have a hard time deciding what episode/season to watch.

Seasons 1, 7, 8 and 10 are all great to me and once you watch one, you might as well just watch the whole thing. The rest are all over the map in tone and it all depends on your mood at the time. My problem is i can't decide right there and then what to watch so I don't bother. Season 3 is classic but all over the map, Season 4 is CBS cartoon goofy then amped up in other seasons. Too many generic villains. :s Like I said, all depends on your mood.

*Original TMNT Cartoon Fan* · 02-18-2016, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TurtleGuy

I will say that one thing that the Fred Wolf cartoon DOES get unfairly blamed for and that's it's somehow this show's fault that the 4kids series isn't on DVD in complete seasons/series form.

Why would they say so? The 1987 cartoon was rleased to DVD between April 2004-November 2012 which is both before and after the mid-October 2009 Nickelodeon purchase of TMNT. It's true Nickelodeon has the final decisions.

*CyberCubed* · 02-18-2016, 01:15 PM

The difference is Nick owns the 2k3 series, but the original cartoon is still owned by Lionsgate.

So Nick has no control over how the original cartoon comes to DVD, however they ARE in control of the 2k3 series and even then they can't release proper DVDs.

*Original TMNT Cartoon Fan* · 02-18-2016, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The difference is Nick owns the 2k3 series, but the original cartoon is still owned by Lionsgate.

So Nick has no control over how the original cartoon comes to DVD, however they ARE in control of the 2k3 series and even then they can't release proper DVDs.

OK, but I still can't think how that should affect Nickelodeon not releasing the 2003 cartoon to DVD.

*Powder* · 02-18-2016, 04:38 PM

It doesn't. 4kids fanboys just like to get upset about made-up stuff.

~~ABrown~~ · 02-18-2016, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammy85

Coincidentally, I'm back on a He-man kick right now, having blown through the Top 10

If any show got their dvd releases properly executed, it's the original He-Man cartoon. The top 10 dvd set was outstanding, and it's what I'm far more likely to rewatch than the entire series again. That show just doesn't stand the test of time very well, not anywhere near as well as the original TMNT series does. I'll absolutely rewatch the best of set. However, if I'm going to rewatch a He-Man series in its entirety it will be the Mike Young Productions 2002 series.

Quote:

and watching the movie last night.

Are you talking about the Dolph Lundgren movie? I picked up the dvd years ago cause i found it for like $5. But if I'm looking for a He-Man fix, it's not very likely that I'm going to throw that in.

cammy85 · 02-19-2016, 10:18 AM

I agree!!! And in the spirit of this thread, the first season of the original MOTU cartoon is mostly worth watching while the second is hit and miss, especially towards the end. It all depends on the tone you feel like watching. TMNT and He-man both have their serious and silly sides. I only mentioned the movie because I just got that nostalgic and the fact that Dolph Lundgren is going to be the lead in the new Kindergarten Cop movie.

*Original TMNT Cartoon Fan* · 02-20-2016, 08:30 AM

Isn't the 1983 Heman cartoon without any episode order?

cammy85 · 02-20-2016, 11:05 AM

Originally, yup!! They were all over the damned place. The DVDs have them in story order. Ex. originally, Modulok appeared in an episode where everybody knew him then his second appearance had his origin.

Yoshimickster · 02-20-2016, 12:12 PM

I like it for what it is, a fun silly cartoon about mutant ninja turtles. And sure MOST of the time Shredder is a moron, but his ninja skills stay consistent through-out enough for him to be a threat.

Though I will admit the "Vacation in Europe" season kind-of insulted my intelligence. You mean to tell me the Foot clan can teleport ANYWHERE on Earth, and only reason they fail is because they want EVERY plan they make to happen when they get their revenge on the turtles? I mean COME ON-on the one hand, it coincides with the revenge theme of ninja turtles, how it can make someone obsessed beyond ALL logical recourse, and ultimately bring their down-fall. But...THEY COULD STILL WAIT-get some materials in New York while the Turtles vacation. BUT-said season still made me laugh so whatevs.

I do have criticisms beyond that though, the biggest being that they introduced a THOUSAND great characters but only developed a sparse few. The prime offender: Metalhead. Anyone who remebers this name, most likely remembers him from one of the most ICONIC boss fights in TMNT history, against the mechanical Turtle doppelganer:METALHEAD! He had stretchy arms, lasers, he was a freaking robot turtle, just cool. And he even appeared in the show, with the combined personalities and talents of all the turtles, allowing him to predict their moves. During the ep, they reprogram them to their side to fight the foot, and after that they reprogram him again...to be their maid. OKAY a little lame, but maybe his second appearance would be better? NOT by a long shot, Donnie tries to reprogram him to be a vacuum cleaner, he BREAKS and is never seen nor heard from again. What.The.SHELL?! They had a robot best friend with the combined fighting abilities of the turtles and Shredder, and the combined genius of Donotello and Krang, and you make him a VACUUM CLEANER?!

This is a show that ultimately averages out to "okay" status, but a different kind of okay because you know if they just tweaked it a TAD it could be great. Maybe Playmates shouldn't have made so many toys for characters that wouldn't appear in show, FORCING the writers to plug them in, which I'm pretty sure the writers HATED doing. I don't think its a coincidence why several toy adaptations were only in one episode(Flush-o-matic anyone?) But hey, that's why we got the 2K12 series, sure it ain't perfect, but its a MARKED improvement.

*pferreira* · 02-25-2016, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshimickster

Maybe Playmates shouldn't have made so many toys for characters that wouldn't appear in show, FORCING the writers to plug them in, which I'm pretty sure the writers HATED doing. I don't think its a coincidence why several toy adaptations were only in one episode(Flush-o-matic anyone?) But hey, that's why we got the 2K12 series, sure it ain't perfect, but its a MARKED improvement.

There's an episode where the writers were forced to include a device that flips trash and they made fun of it by having it fail in the episode.

Konchadunga · 02-25-2016, 03:58 PM

I'll be honest, while I think Fred Wolf's detractors have passed up its nostalgic purists in how annoying they are, it's hard to argue that the expectations it's placed on the brand aren't a frequent burden.

The thing that needs to be acknowledged is that the Fred Wolf show was made in less-than-ideal circumstances. The big problems with it are all neatly summed up as "It took an uncompromising brand and made it a compromising brand". Eastman and Laird conceived their creation as a creator-owned, creator-driven alternative to DC and Marvel's takes on the genre; they weren't even anticipating that their idea would be incredibly lucrative. That it somehow was caused them to rush out the door with the authorization of an animated adaptation at a time and for an audience that weren't really ready for an animated adaptation. Plenty of things had to be censored; especially given it was an era of extensive moral pandering. I'm convinced it was impossible to adapt Mirage faithfully in a 1980s TV show; in 2003 things were looser but still not there, and on those grounds, I at least give the Fred Wolf crew a lot of credit for trying to be their own thing with its own brand of entertainment. I agree with Andrew NDB's summation on that podcast; the 2003 cartoon may be objectively a lot better than the 1980s one, but if you have access to the Mirage series, it actually feels more bastardized than Fred Wolf, since you know exactly where something was removed and it never feels whole. Then there's the later seasons when 2000s show, too, abandoned its Mirage roots and got pretty stupid, and that gave me an all new appreciation for the Fred Wolf show, since at least it acknowledged its own stupidity.

So no; I don't "blame" the Fred Wolf show, because it seems unfair to blame a show or its creators for failing to do a good job adapting something at a time when circumstances they couldn't control wouldn't allow it. It's the people existing since then, who try to play to Fred Wolf nostalgia, without a good consideration of the depth of the situation, that tend to cause problems. It's irritating to see not just parodies, but also the original movies and the infamous "Coming Out of Their Shells Tour" doing the "Every Turtle is Mikey" thing and inundating people with surfer lingo and pizza references, and then it's also irritating to condense all of the Fred Wolf goofiness into Mikey, which really plagued the 2003 show. What casual observers looking back don't seem to get is that even the fans of the Fred Wolf series weren't there only for the surfer-talk and pizza, and when it comes to other incarnations, becoming fixated on such things just gets more troublesome.

Then there's the alternate scenario of dead-seriousness, wherein Fred Wolf icons get adapted in a way that misses the point of why people liked them. It was discussed in past pages whether writers can adapt Krang in a way that's more serious than in Fred Wolf, but for me the better question is, should they do it? My answer is no. I'd say the choice is lose-lose; many people who like Fred Wolf will be disappointed Krang isn't funny anymore, and while the people who dislike Fred Wolf may tolerate him when he's devoid of humor, he's hardly the villain they'd prefer to be in his place. They could just use the Triceratons for the "imperialistic alien warlord" thing if they want it to be dead-serious, or even a new alien they created. I've already talked about how thoroughly unworkable the Neutrinos are when written as serious characters, so I won't reiterate here.

*Powder* · 02-26-2016, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Then there's the alternate scenario of dead-seriousness, wherein Fred Wolf icons get adapted in a way that misses the point of why people liked them. It was discussed in past pages whether writers can adapt Krang in a way that's more serious than in Fred Wolf, but for me the better question is, should they do it? My answer is no. I'd say the choice is lose-lose; many people who like Fred Wolf will be disappointed Krang isn't funny anymore, and while the people who dislike Fred Wolf may tolerate him when he's devoid of humor, he's hardly the villain they'd prefer to be in his place. They could just use the Triceratons for the "imperialistic alien warlord" thing if they want it to be dead-serious, or even a new alien they created. I've already talked about how thoroughly unworkable the Neutrinos are when written as serious characters, so I won't reiterate here.

Yeah, this stuff really shivers me timbers, too.

cryan · 02-26-2016, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammy85

Coincidentally, I'm back on a He-man kick right now, having blown through the Top 10 and watching the movie last night.

But yes, each season has its own positives and negatives. I do want to break out my sets but have a hard time deciding what episode/season to watch.

Seasons 1, 7, 8 and 10 are all great to me and once you watch one, you might as well just watch the whole thing. The rest are all over the map in tone and it all depends on your mood at the time. My problem is i can't decide right there and then what to watch so I don't bother. Season 3 is classic but all over the map, Season 4 is CBS cartoon goofy then amped up in other seasons. Too many generic villains. :s Like I said, all depends on your mood.

In all fairness CBS did allow a nude lizard chick in the cartoon. The series did what it was intended to entertain. Goofy at times sure but fun at the same time.

*plastroncafe* · 02-26-2016, 07:48 PM

She wasn't nude.
Mona Lisa had a bandanna.

*TigerClaw* · 02-26-2016, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

She wasn't nude.
Mona Lisa had a bandanna.

not a bandanna, but a scarf.

*CyberCubed* · 02-26-2016, 09:37 PM

Ok, can we lock this thread now? Please?

02-25-2016, 03:58 PM	#135
Konchadunga Stone Warrior Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Southern California Posts: 912	I'll be honest, while I think Fred Wolf's detractors have passed up its nostalgic purists in how annoying they are, it's hard to argue that the expectations it's placed on the brand aren't a frequent burden. The thing that needs to be acknowledged is that the Fred Wolf show was made in less-than-ideal circumstances. The big problems with it are all neatly summed up as "It took an uncompromising brand and made it a compromising brand". Eastman and Laird conceived their creation as a creator-owned, creator-driven alternative to DC and Marvel's takes on the genre; they weren't even anticipating that their idea would be incredibly lucrative. That it somehow was caused them to rush out the door with the authorization of an animated adaptation at a time and for an audience that weren't really ready for an animated adaptation. Plenty of things had to be censored; especially given it was an era of extensive moral pandering. I'm convinced it was impossible to adapt Mirage faithfully in a 1980s TV show; in 2003 things were looser but still not there, and on those grounds, I at least give the Fred Wolf crew a lot of credit for trying to be their own thing with its own brand of entertainment. I agree with Andrew NDB's summation on that podcast; the 2003 cartoon may be objectively a lot better than the 1980s one, but if you have access to the Mirage series, it actually feels more bastardized than Fred Wolf, since you know exactly where something was removed and it never feels whole. Then there's the later seasons when 2000s show, too, abandoned its Mirage roots and got pretty stupid, and that gave me an all new appreciation for the Fred Wolf show, since at least it acknowledged its own stupidity. So no; I don't "blame" the Fred Wolf show, because it seems unfair to blame a show or its creators for failing to do a good job adapting something at a time when circumstances they couldn't control wouldn't allow it. It's the people existing since then, who try to play to Fred Wolf nostalgia, without a good consideration of the depth of the situation, that tend to cause problems. It's irritating to see not just parodies, but also the original movies and the infamous "Coming Out of Their Shells Tour" doing the "Every Turtle is Mikey" thing and inundating people with surfer lingo and pizza references, and then it's also irritating to condense all of the Fred Wolf goofiness into Mikey, which really plagued the 2003 show. What casual observers looking back don't seem to get is that even the fans of the Fred Wolf series weren't there only for the surfer-talk and pizza, and when it comes to other incarnations, becoming fixated on such things just gets more troublesome. Then there's the alternate scenario of dead-seriousness, wherein Fred Wolf icons get adapted in a way that misses the point of why people liked them. It was discussed in past pages whether writers can adapt Krang in a way that's more serious than in Fred Wolf, but for me the better question is, should they do it? My answer is no. I'd say the choice is lose-lose; many people who like Fred Wolf will be disappointed Krang isn't funny anymore, and while the people who dislike Fred Wolf may tolerate him when he's devoid of humor, he's hardly the villain they'd prefer to be in his place. They could just use the Triceratons for the "imperialistic alien warlord" thing if they want it to be dead-serious, or even a new alien they created. I've already talked about how thoroughly unworkable the Neutrinos are when written as serious characters, so I won't reiterate here. __________________

02-18-2016, 10:41 AM	#123
pferreira Foot Elite Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,514	For some people they can't go back and enjoy shows like Ninja Turtles, Real Ghostbusters, He-Man, Thundercats, etc. It just depends on the person. I still find the Fred Wolf cartoon enjoyable, fun, imaginative and humorous. Shock horror I do believe the Fred Wolf cartoon is still great.

02-18-2016, 11:09 AM	#124
cammy85 Stone Warrior Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Minnedosa, MB Canada Posts: 772	Coincidentally, I'm back on a He-man kick right now, having blown through the Top 10 and watching the movie last night. But yes, each season has its own positives and negatives. I do want to break out my sets but have a hard time deciding what episode/season to watch. Seasons 1, 7, 8 and 10 are all great to me and once you watch one, you might as well just watch the whole thing. The rest are all over the map in tone and it all depends on your mood at the time. My problem is i can't decide right there and then what to watch so I don't bother. Season 3 is classic but all over the map, Season 4 is CBS cartoon goofy then amped up in other seasons. Too many generic villains. :s Like I said, all depends on your mood.

02-18-2016, 01:15 PM	#126
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,871	The difference is Nick owns the 2k3 series, but the original cartoon is still owned by Lionsgate. So Nick has no control over how the original cartoon comes to DVD, however they ARE in control of the 2k3 series and even then they can't release proper DVDs.

02-18-2016, 04:38 PM	#128
Powder 40 Years of TMNT Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Shell-Ri-La Posts: 26,954	It doesn't. 4kids fanboys just like to get upset about made-up stuff.

02-19-2016, 10:18 AM	#130
cammy85 Stone Warrior Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Minnedosa, MB Canada Posts: 772	I agree!!! And in the spirit of this thread, the first season of the original MOTU cartoon is mostly worth watching while the second is hit and miss, especially towards the end. It all depends on the tone you feel like watching. TMNT and He-man both have their serious and silly sides. I only mentioned the movie because I just got that nostalgic and the fact that Dolph Lundgren is going to be the lead in the new Kindergarten Cop movie.

02-20-2016, 08:30 AM	#131
Original TMNT Cartoon Fan Overlord Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 10,481	Isn't the 1983 Heman cartoon without any episode order?

02-20-2016, 11:05 AM	#132
cammy85 Stone Warrior Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Minnedosa, MB Canada Posts: 772	Originally, yup!! They were all over the damned place. The DVDs have them in story order. Ex. originally, Modulok appeared in an episode where everybody knew him then his second appearance had his origin.

02-20-2016, 12:12 PM	#133
Yoshimickster Foot Soldier Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: New Jersey Posts: 106	I like it for what it is, a fun silly cartoon about mutant ninja turtles. And sure MOST of the time Shredder is a moron, but his ninja skills stay consistent through-out enough for him to be a threat. Though I will admit the "Vacation in Europe" season kind-of insulted my intelligence. You mean to tell me the Foot clan can teleport ANYWHERE on Earth, and only reason they fail is because they want EVERY plan they make to happen when they get their revenge on the turtles? I mean COME ON-on the one hand, it coincides with the revenge theme of ninja turtles, how it can make someone obsessed beyond ALL logical recourse, and ultimately bring their down-fall. But...THEY COULD STILL WAIT-get some materials in New York while the Turtles vacation. BUT-said season still made me laugh so whatevs. I do have criticisms beyond that though, the biggest being that they introduced a THOUSAND great characters but only developed a sparse few. The prime offender: Metalhead. Anyone who remebers this name, most likely remembers him from one of the most ICONIC boss fights in TMNT history, against the mechanical Turtle doppelganer:METALHEAD! He had stretchy arms, lasers, he was a freaking robot turtle, just cool. And he even appeared in the show, with the combined personalities and talents of all the turtles, allowing him to predict their moves. During the ep, they reprogram them to their side to fight the foot, and after that they reprogram him again...to be their maid. OKAY a little lame, but maybe his second appearance would be better? NOT by a long shot, Donnie tries to reprogram him to be a vacuum cleaner, he BREAKS and is never seen nor heard from again. What.The.SHELL?! They had a robot best friend with the combined fighting abilities of the turtles and Shredder, and the combined genius of Donotello and Krang, and you make him a VACUUM CLEANER?! This is a show that ultimately averages out to "okay" status, but a different kind of okay because you know if they just tweaked it a TAD it could be great. Maybe Playmates shouldn't have made so many toys for characters that wouldn't appear in show, FORCING the writers to plug them in, which I'm pretty sure the writers HATED doing. I don't think its a coincidence why several toy adaptations were only in one episode(Flush-o-matic anyone?) But hey, that's why we got the 2K12 series, sure it ain't perfect, but its a MARKED improvement.

02-26-2016, 09:37 PM	#140
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,871	Ok, can we lock this thread now? Please?