Does the Fred Wolf show get unfairly blamed?

[Mewzard]

Originally Posted by TurtleGuy

Let's not generalize. It's just going to piss people off.

I'm well aware that the show is flawed. The writing can be hokey at times, and the lack of violence is annoying, but IMO the clever humor makes up for it.

Then again, it's probably also because I'm still not all that interested in the Mirage universe aside from the first movie and the 2k3 series.

Well, for the longest time (about two decades), the first movie was my Gold Standard of TMNT.

That only changed when I started reading the Mirage Comic. I saw so many of the elements I loved from the first movie that most incarnations seemed to ignore.

There's something about the way the story goes, the way the book feels, the style it has, all combined together that just work for me more than any other incarnation of the Turtles (at least, of my experience with Eastman and Laird's volume one issues).

I...I feel like I've seen some of the Fred Wolf Cartoon when I was very little (my older sister was a fan at the time), but honestly, my oldest memory of the franchise was the first movie (which came out when I was like two years old).

I really should go back and give it some more time.

My preference may be Mirage's more serious take, but I'm also a goofy bastard who enjoys silly comedies, and I was able to enjoy what I've read of Archie and IDW as well, so I suppose my tastes are open enough to give it a shot (I'm just committed financially at the moment, so it'll have to wait, lol).

There's nothing wrong with multiple takes on the franchise. I'd just love to see Mirage's take get more love. The first movie showed you could really do it justice on screen. Maybe it should get a nice black and white animated release, aim for the teen crowd/PG-13 (I don't think it's violent enough to warrant an R).

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I appreciate the 4th wall humor and puns much more than I did as a kid. The dialog is great. I do hate some of the goofy antics mid season 3- 6. Part of it holds up while other parts don't.

I think I fall into this category. This is why I seem to like it more now. I get all of the jokes.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I appreciate the 4th wall humor and puns much more than I did as a kid. The dialog is great. I do hate some of the goofy antics mid season 3- 6. Part of it holds up while other parts don't.

Same here. I watched some of the episodes recently and found that there were a lot of good one-liners that went over my head as a kid such as Raphael's sarcastic remarks and the banter between Shredder and Krang.

Also, I still love the Red Sky seasons and think they had a good mix of drama, action and comic relief. I thought the three-way battle between Dregg, Shredder and the Turtles was great as a kid, as I hadn't seen that sort of dynamic on a show before at the time.

I would like to see some of the OT characters like Big Louie, Chronos, Krakus, Colonel Knight, etc. been used again. It was the characters that made the show worth watching most of the time. In any event, I think the show has aged better than other cartoons that were on at around the same time such as Sonic SatAM and Spiderman TAS.

[MikeandRaph87]

Yes, the quips by Raphael and Shredder and Krang's banter are what make it great. The dialog as whole really.

Here is an example of The Shredder/ Krang dynamic.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

]

I always saw potential with Dark Water and we are actually finally seeing it in IDW. Big Louie always seemed to be the most formidable of all of the mob bosses that appeared in the 1987 cartoon and elsewhere. Sure, he had a Godfather like gimmick and was a bit goofy, but that was because he was in the more comedic inspired seasons of the TMNT (1987) cartoon. I had plans of my own for Krakus, but don't know if he would appear beyond the 1987 cartoon. Chronos appeared in the best episode that did not include Shredder and Krang in the Red Sky era. It had Dregg only briefly and was not necessary. Yet the secondary mutations and Carter remained and it was still really good. It proves just how effect the crazed clock mastermind was.

[TMNT_Guy]

Honestly, out of the 193 episodes of the series, there are only 25 episodes that I always skip. I think that’s pretty good for a show that lasted for ten years, nearly every long running show is bound to have some stinkers.

Even then most of the episodes I skip aren’t bad, just that they have bad continuity or bad replacement voices. For example, The Ninja Sword of Nowhere is a good episode…but Raphael’s voice in that episode is terrible. The rest of the 168 episodes range from ok to awesome for me.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by TMNT_Guy

Honestly, out of the 193 episodes of the series, there are only 25 episodes that I always skip. I think that’s pretty good for a show that lasted for ten years, nearly every long running show is bound to have some stinkers.

Even then most of the episodes I skip aren’t bad, just that they have bad continuity or bad replacement voices. For example, The Ninja Sword of Nowhere is a good episode…but Raphael’s voice in that episode is terrible. The rest of the 168 episodes range from ok to awesome for me.

It is funny that you use The Ninja Sword of Nowhere as the example. I usually cite it as of two poor plot devices found in season 3. An alien antique collector steals away the sword after coming out of nowhere and does not care about Splinter still being trapped? The crap kind of poor plotting is that to wrap up an episode? I used to roll my eyes at the Elvis impersonating aliens, but I can see it as aliens who are picking up radio and television signals from thirty years before and their way of fitting in amongst the populace from what they know and its funny to me as an adult. The second lazy plot device was the moth balls having a magic property in Michelangelo's Birthday and Splinter said he simply believed it was possible so it was. Those two wrap ups annoy the adult me.

[TurtleGuy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

"Funny" as in, "A groan with a chuckle at the end of it while rubbing your temples as your brain does its best to digest the barrage of horrible puns and 'clever' wordplay", then, yeah, "Funny".

All the dialog on that cartoon is "funny", yeah... in the "Gong Show"/"Oh, man, get the hook!" kind of way. Not "Haha, that's clever and well-written" funny. I mean, that's fine, they were aiming for their audience, great, just call it what it is.

Puns are the lowest form of humor and that show is guilty as F*CK.

No. The lowest form of humor is pop culture references like Mikey saying "Zoinks" "Jinkies" "Ruh Roh", "You got some splaining to do" and a bunch of other lame catchphrases from other shows(Seriously, Raph, you chastise and smack Mikey for saying "cowabunga" but not that crap?).

And the humor wasn't all puns. There was a lot of self aware humor. Also, just for the heck of it, here are a few of my favorite lines from the series:

(Usagi Yojimbo)

Raphael: He's not only from medieval Japan, but also from an alternate universe, so naturally he speaks English.

(Plan Six From Outer Space)

Secretary: Education?
Rocksteady: I got four years of science school.
Secretary: And what did you study?
Rocksteady: I didn't study anything. They studied me!

(Leonardo, the Renaissance Turtle)

LEX-1: When will you humans realize that crime does not pay?
Leonardo: Warning shots for jaywalking?! You must have a loose fuse!
April O'Neil: For sure! This city has ENOUGH potholes in it already!
LEX-1: The prisoners will be put on bread and water for making wisecracks! Do you have any last words ?
April O'Neil: I can think of a few, (Aside Glance) but, they're not appropriate for television!

(Turtles at the Earth's Core)

Rocksteady: Gee boss, it ain't easy gettin' dinosaurs to obey.
Bebop: Yeah... (snorts) They're all muscle and no brains.
Shredder: (to the camera) I won't say it, it's too easy.

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

It is funny that you use The Ninja Sword of Nowhere as the example. I usually cite it as of two poor plot devices found in season 3. An alien antique collector steals away the sword after coming out of nowhere and does not care about Splinter still being trapped? The crap kind of poor plotting is that to wrap up an episode? I used to roll my eyes at the Elvis impersonating aliens, but I can see it as aliens who are picking up radio and television signals from thirty years before and their way of fitting in amongst the populace from what they know and its funny to me as an adult. The second lazy plot device was the moth balls having a magic property in Michelangelo's Birthday and Splinter said he simply believed it was possible so it was. Those two wrap ups annoy the adult me.

I honestly thought the episode was great right up until the ending, mostly because of how Deus Ex Machina-ey it was. But I chalk up the aliens not caring about Splinter still being trapped due to them either thinking he was a limbo local, never seeing him, or just don't think it's their problem.

[CyberCubed]

The worst eps in the original toon, besides the European Vacation eps, is the one Mikey turns human, "The Turtle Terminator" which had a robot Irma and Raph's alternate voice, Michaelangelo toys around (just a dull episode), Donatello's Badd Time with the hillbillies who steal the Turtle Van, and some of the mad scientist episodes...even though those aren't all that bad.

Ninja Sword of Nowhere was fantastic, luckily Raph's alternate voice doesn't get many lines in that ep.

[MikeandRaph87]

I don't think the alien antique dealers were neccessary at all. Instead Shredder could have been tricked into opening a riff so they could retrieve Splinter then the sword could have been melted by a blaster.

I agree about Donatello's Badd Time. There is also Funny, They Shrunk Michaelangelo. There is Ring of Fire and Polly Wanna Pizza as well. I like Split Second and Carter, The Enforcer, but the other six episodes not so much.

[TurtleGuy]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I don't think the alien antique dealers were neccessary at all. Instead Shredder could have been tricked into opening a riff so they could retrieve Splinter then the sword could have been melted by a blaster.

Heck, they could've just thrown the sword itself into limbo.

[CyberCubed]

Polly Wanna Pizza isn't too bad. I liked it when the parrots got switched and its a harmless gangster episode.

[Jephael]

Looking back the only things I find cheesy are the names they give random badguys, like Mugsy McGuffin. Come on, they could've tried being a little more original than that.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by TurtleGuy

I'm starting to think I'm the only one on this forum who still likes this show unironically(and a little ironically)...

To me it's just a fun little show.

Honestly compared to what I may come off as I actually still like the show.

I feel like the first five episodes are about as good as Saturday morning cartoons got in the 80s and despite the drop in quality and being all round more formulaic season 2 is still well made.

The third season is perhaps one of the most interesting eras of a long running tv shows ever made in that it's so inconsistent with episodes with the same tone as the first season and others that are full on comedic and out there like Cowabunga Shredhead and everything in between and yet somehow it still worked. I even appreciate the really lightweight Seasons 4 and 5 in the same way I appreciate silver age DC comics. I'd even go as far as to say that the '87 series is one of the few shows that "jumped the shark" and then jumped back with Season 6.

Like I said I don't believe the Fred Wolf show is to blame for TMNT not being taken with the degree of seriousness as it should be (either as franchise or a story) as plenty of great comic properties have had campy shows and yet it's never held them back.

It's the attitude by a large section that this is the only way to approach the property even though many of the hallmarks that TMNT is known for and seen as intrinsic to the property like family theme or Raphael being a loner and so on not only didn't originate from that show but didn't even feature in the show. Heck even the popularity of Casey Jones is not from the show, no one who is excited about the character thinks of the perma-masked guy but Elias Koteas faithful version.

That's the problem not the show itself.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

In terms of characters/story, its basically slapstick and villain of the week.

Uh....so is the Fred Wolf cartoon.

Originally Posted by Galactus

Honestly compared to what I may come off as I actually still like the show.

I feel like the first five episodes are about as good as Saturday morning cartoons got in the 80s and despite the drop in quality and being all round more formulaic season 2 is still well made.

The third season is perhaps one of the most interesting eras of a long running tv shows ever made in that it's so inconsistent with episodes with the same tone as the first season and others that are full on comedic and out there like Cowabunga Shredhead and everything in between and yet somehow it still worked. I even appreciate the really lightweight Seasons 4 and 5 in the same way I appreciate silver age DC comics. I'd even go as far as to say that the '87 series is one of the few shows that "jumped the shark" and then jumped back with Season 6.

Like I said I don't believe the Fred Wolf show is to blame for TMNT not being taken with the degree of seriousness as it should be (either as franchise or a story) as plenty of great comic properties have had campy shows and yet it's never held them back.

It's the attitude by a large section that this is the only way to approach the property even though many of the hallmarks that TMNT is known for and seen as intrinsic to the property like family theme or Raphael being a loner and so on not only didn't originate from that show but didn't even feature in the show. Heck even the popularity of Casey Jones is not from the show, no one who is excited about the character thinks of the perma-masked guy but Elias Koteas faithful version.

That's the problem not the show itself.

I could agree with this.

[TurtleGuy]

I will say that one thing that the Fred Wolf cartoon DOES get unfairly blamed for and that's it's somehow this show's fault that the 4kids series isn't on DVD in complete seasons/series form. That's all on Nickelodeon.

[CyberCubed]

I think its time for this thread to be locked.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by Wesley

I would like to see some of the OT characters like Big Louie, Chronos, Krakus, Colonel Knight, etc. been used again..

Well Colonel Knight recently showed up in the IDW comics.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I think its time for this thread to be locked.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...BIn95Qh2_REwEw

It doesn't need to get locked at all, it's a fair topic and isn't a copy of another active thread. From what I can tell, Cubed is just a little uncomfortable with the topic.

[DarkLightDragon]

Originally Posted by neatoman

It doesn't need to get locked at all, it's a fair topic and isn't a copy of another active thread. From what I can tell, Cubed is just a little uncomfortable with the topic.

Nah, he can't take actual criticism of stuff he likes.