Ranking the Superman films

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

That fight scene of Superman punching Zod across the sky and then zooming in to hit him again has quickly become an Iconic Moment, as well. It's since showed up in the Injustice games and some of the animated films, almost shot-for-shot. So that's pretty neat.

Totally. I still remember my reaction to seeing that shot for the first time. It's thrilling.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I've been meaning to get back to this thread for a while, it would be simply be unjust to leave Leo's long and thoughtful posts unanswered.



To be fair, I didn't care much for Otis in my first viewing for the film, but upon repeat watches, I found some of his moments pretty damn funny, like when he was mockingly imitating Luthor before they both were sent off to be arrested.

He was pretty much a one-man Bebop and Rocksteady who needed to be there so Luthor could berate someone.



I always got the impression that Superman partially found her attractive for her daring recklessness, like during the scene where Clark and Lois are confronted by the bank robber, and she rather stupidly kicks the robber and risks her life in the process.

That, and the fact that Margot Kidder's Lois' demeanor completely changes upon seeing Superman.

With Clark, she is as bold as a bulldog but when talking to Superman, she mumbles and is nervous, the contrast of which probably would've been fun for Superman to witness.

And I am one of those peoples who actually likes "Can you read my mind" lol.

That being said though, I thought Margot Kidder wasn't extra-ordinarily hot or anything, just passable (moreso in the first film and the Donner cut of the second film, her appearance seriously deteriorated as the films went on).

Heck, Eve Techsmacher was way hotter, she even can claim the title of being the first woman to kiss Christopher Reeve's Superman.



I absolutely love the time travel ending (atleast in the first film) and would even argue that its the highlight of that movie, I'll need time to make a proper response as to why

Eve Tessmacher/Valerie Perrine was indeed amazingly hot. I never knew who she was aside from this movie for the longest time, but thankfully Google Image Search is a thing since she got naked in several movies back in the day. Mmmm mmm mmm.

And people can like whatever they want, but going back in time to undo a screw-up is fundamentally against just about every "Superman" principle there is. For one thing, saving the person closest to him while letting many other people die is completely wrong. Secondly, just the possibility of it opens up countless problems. Why not go back further and get his father to a hospital when he had his heart attack? Kill Hitler in his crib? Take the bullet for JFK? Pry Jesus off the cross? Where does it ever end, if you have the power to do such things and display that you're willing to use/abuse it?

Again, this is a place where it pays to actually know and understand who the character actually is, not who a kids' movie displayed him to be. The basic idea of using time travel shenanigans to un-do bad things that have happened is completely against his personal code of ethics - both because it's selfish and lends itself to abuse, but also because of the countless "Flashpoint"-type scenarios that would likely arise from it.

That's part of the reason why the writers de-powered Superman at one point, to where he was no longer able to even get near light-speed. It sidesteps all of the moral and ethical problems that time travel implicitly carries and avoids people relying on lazy writing to fix plot holes.

An actual Superman thing to do would have been to deflect one missile off-course and send it towards the other one, so they'd collide in mid-air. Just for example. Less spectacular, perhaps, but at least it wouldn't be completely out of character (and/or beyond the range of his abilities, depending on the era).

Between that and "Earth can take care of itself, I'm gonna get me some snooch" in part II, those movies do a great job of displaying that, for as "reverent" as they proclaimed to be, they actually didn't know much about the character. It doesn't take a lot of digging to find many examples of canon that display how Superman would never do either of those things. Like ever.

[Andrew NDB]

The only thing good in the Donner Superman movies is Superman himself. Everything and everyone else is pretty bad. Except Zod.

[Leo656]

Even Annette O'Toole? I thought she was fine.

...And I do mean "fine". Whooooo.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Even Annette O'Toole? I thought she was fine.

...And I do mean "fine". Whooooo.

Yeah, didn't do anything for me. I found Margot Kidder reasonably attractive until I became an adult, I guess.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Why not go back further and get his father to a hospital when he had his heart attack? Kill Hitler in his crib? Take the bullet for JFK? Pry Jesus off the cross? Where does it ever end, if you have the power to do such things and display that you're willing to use/abuse it?

I have pondered on that line of thought as well, because there doesn't seem to be any set limit to how far back in time Superman could go back in the Donner films.

If he could go back to save Lois, and time travel an even greater period at the end of the Donner cut, then surely he could've gone back long enough to save Jonathon Kent before he had the heart attack (although he couldn't have saved Krypton, because it doesn't have a yellow sun, thus he can't turn back time there).

To me, it seems that the reason Superman didn't go back in time to save Jonathon was because he had already accepted his death at that point in time. Plus, Jonathon's death was from a natural cause, whereas Lois died "unjustly".

Its shortsighted and a selfish way of thinking for sure, but I think that was kind of meant to be the point during the time travel scene at the end of the first film, to show that despite being a Kryptonian who is bound by specific rules, Superman ultimately feels and thinks like one of us which leads him to disobeying said rules.

Thus, the whole "It is forbidden to you to intefere with human history" vs. "One thing I know son, and that is you are here for a reason".

Also, I find it really interesting that despite being the intended ending for the 2nd film, it doesn't feel like that to me when watching the Donner cut, because Superman rewinds time there so casually and with a smile on his face, as if he is used to this after the first time around.

People have asked why Superman just didn't rewind time immediately after getting his powers back there, and I think that can be attributed to the fact that three other Kryptonians were also there at the time, with the ability to potentially do the same thing, so Superman made sure they were out of the way first before doing his thing in order to undo the damage and wipe Lois' memory.

Originally Posted by Leo656

3. He actually let all those other people die, didn't he?

That is not the impression I got.

Just watching that clip from the film again, it seems as though he went in time just far back to prevent Lois' death, but the earthquake before that still happened as usual so he had already saved everyone beforehand.

Lois even mentions after the time travel, that she witnessed telephone poles falling all over the place and was almost killed.

[CyberCubed]

So as I mentioned in the other thread I recently rewatched Superman Returns but I had never seen Superman 3 before.

The weird thing is the black actor Richard Pryor feels like the main character of the film instead of Superman. I was surprised to Lara Lang since I didn't expect to see her. Most of this film is really silly, even by 80's standards, some parts of it felt like a full blown parody.

This black actor is before my time but I know he was huge at the time, but it's so weird to see a black guy star in a Superman film in the 80's. Also the other main villain feels like a stand-in for Lex Luthor, doesn't he? He's basically the same evil business man trope...I wonder why they didn't just bring back Gene Hackman.

Also Lois is barely in the film.

[Leo656]

Richard Pryor WAS the main character, it's terrible. He was immensely popular at the time and they basically only made the movie as a vehicle for him. The producers later admitted that this was a mistake.

Lois isn't in it much because Margot Kidder publicly trashed the producers in the press when Superman II came out, for the way they treated Richard Donner (firing him and having Richard Lester re-do half of it and in turn turning Superman II into the piece of sh*t that it is). She was under contract for the third movie so they "had" to put her in it somewhere, but as "punishment" for what she said about the producers in interviews they cut her part down to nothing.

Gene Hackman wasn't in it because he was completely on the outs with the producers at that time as well. He too was furious with them for how they treated Richard Donner and refused to even come back for any of the Superman II reshoots (which is why in the theatrical cut of II you often see "him" shot from behind - it's a Stunt Lex and a soundalike voice actor). I've heard that they tried to approach him about being in Superman III but that he refused to even take the phone call, but I don't know how true that is. He only appeared in Superman IV because it was made by a completely different production company, although in the end it only reinforced his original decision to quit the franchise, since Superman IV is an abomination.

Annette O'Toole as Lana had some incredible tits. She actually had a nude scene in some other movie either shortly before or shortly after, and her cans were immaculate. Other than that, there's very little in Superman III that's worth watching.

It pretty much IS a parody movie. The producers admitted later on that after Superman II they had completely run out of ideas; they wanted to do Brainiac in part III but it was going to be way too expensive, so instead they went completely the other way. Richard Lester, the director (also the one who finished the theatrical cut of Superman II), vocally hated the Superman character and thought it was stupid. He thought the first movie was nonsense with its reverent and self-serious approach; he always had the whole "These people wear capes, none of this should be treated like anything but a campy joke, if you're an adult and you like this stuff you're an idiot," etc. etc. attitude. Which is why his cut of Superman II is what IT is, and why Superman III turned out the way it is. You had one-and-a-half Superman movies in a row directed by a guy who openly, vocally had naught but disdain for the character, and called the job his "F*ck-You Money."

Ever since I saw Superman III, I just can't accept super-hero movies that openly mock the character(s) and the audience. I don't find it "fun", or "funny" to have open disdain for the thing you're adapting or the people who like it. BUT, some people like that approach, I guess.

It also looks like sh*t since it's shot through some kind of TV filter or some sh*t like that. It doesn't even look like a theatrical movie; if you ever watched any of those Made For TV movies on ABC or whatever back then, that's exactly what Superman III looks like. But they actually put it out in theaters and people paid for it. Unreal.

It's still better than Superman IV, but that's like saying having crabs is better than having ass cancer. Like obviously, but in a perfect world you wouldn't catch either one.

[ZariusTwo]

I'm usually a big Lois/Clark nut, but the versions of Lana from the Reeve films and DCAU are probably the only ones I would not have minded ending up with Clark one bit. They were such sweethearts.

I quite like the Lana from Superman and Lois too, though she could pass more for Clark's mom than his old crush (and there's that awkward fact she was possessed by Clark's actual mom too)

[The Deadman]

I'll probably catch flack for this but....

6. Man of Steel
5. Superman II
4. Superman IV: The Quest for Peace
3. Superman III
2. Superman Returns
1. Superman

[Turo602]

1. Man of Steel

All the other ones suck.

[IMJ]

1. Superman II
2. Man of Steel
3. Superman Returns
4. Superman
5. Superman IV
6. Superman III

[mrmaczaps]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Even Annette O'Toole? I thought she was fine.

...And I do mean "fine". Whooooo.

She still is super fine, even as she has aged...

[mrmaczaps]

1. Superman
1a. Lois & Clark season one. Haha
2. Superman 2: Donner cut
3. Superman 4
4. Superman 3
5. Man of Steel
6. Superman Returns
...
...
...
99. Justice League/BvS

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by mrmaczaps

She still is super fine, even as she has aged...

Would definitely still smash.

[cammy85]

It's been a long time since I've seen any of them. I thought two was better than one at least, because the establishment had been done and the Zod gang were cool. Plus, I have a soft spot in 3 for Richard Pryor.

I'm only posting this as an example, but has anyone seen any of these at all? I think they're well done!!

[The Deadman]

Link doesnt work.

[Leo656]

If you remove those three specific actors - Terence Stamp and Co. - from Superman II, that entire movie falls completely apart. They hold it together. Even if you cast someone else, the movie doesn't work. It is entirely dependent on them and them specifically.

BUT, show me any movie with Terence Stamp where he's not the best thing about it. "Young Guns", maybe, and he had to contend with Prime Estevez, which is a battle absolutely nobody could've won.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by cammy85

It's been a long time since I've seen any of them. I thought two was better than one at least, because the establishment had been done and the Zod gang were cool. Plus, I have a soft spot in 3 for Richard Pryor.

I'm only posting this as an example, but has anyone seen any of these at all? I think they're well done!!

Broken link!

If we could fit the Fleischer Superman cartoons on this list, they'd be way up there....

[Leo656]

Y'know what's funny about the Fleischer cartoons, is that there's a ton of people who take points off of the Snyder movies because "Superman barely talks", they literally sit there counting the words he speaks like that's a big huge thing... and in those cartoons, some of the earliest cross-medium representation of the character and in fact the first time millions of people who didn't read comics were exposed to him... the guy barely says two words AS Superman. Clark speaks fairly often, "Superman" says almost nothing.

It's just something that jumped out at me over time. In many Year One iterations of Superman - and the Snyder movies ARE Year One Superman - he doesn't actually talk much when he's "working". The fact that he comes off as aloof and mysterious during that period is always a plot point. He's not supposed to go around giving big dramatic Rah-Rah speeches until he's been around a couple of years.

I don't know. Whenever anyone says anything about wishing Superman talked more in the movies, I'm like "Look at the Fleischer cartoons, they're incredible and the guy barely says two words." ((shrug))