In honor of Challenger

[Anarky]

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

Well... they did die... in the pursuit of knowledge. That's why we explore space. Because we don't know what's out there, and we want to learn. Not live isolated in ignorance of reality around us.

Correct, but (and that's a huge but by the way) I think we should clean up the mess in our rooms before we leave the house. I am not saying that we're not suppposed to shoot men to the moon, but what I'm saying is, that we could cut space programs in order to "clean up the room". Knowledge and everything is fine, but what good does knowing that a rock fell on the moon 150 million years ago do when you have asthma because of smog? Smog will be around for a while, but we have the tools and the knowledge to prevent and fight it. But what it lacks is money. So if we said "No, that robot to Mars is not necessary, Mars will still be around in five years" and wanted the money to go to funding of anti-smog campaigns and technologies, I say that this is something useful compared identifying a rock which will still be around in five years.

But were it not for their idiocy and risk-taking, doing things that, at the moment, seemed to have no practical purpose... We'd all still be in caves. Or even extinct. Someone's gotta sacrifice so the rest of us get to mooch off the benefits.

So in your eyes, getting blown to bits inside a spaceshuttle is "taking one for the team"? Sure, people have learned that there needs to be more security checks on space shuttles before they launch, but aside from that, those shredded people have done nothing for us.

But, snobbery is the trend. Respect? Pfft! Just some silly device made for the controlling of the masses, of course.

Not respect, but the masses are indeed controlled by overdone respect, such as parades and silly T-Shirts. Creating media events, live feeds from some silly parade honouring some media-proclaimed hero is nothing but crowd control. Besides, TV wastes precious airtime where they could actually tell you where help would be needed and what's wrong in front of your own doorstep. Sure, nobody wants to hear that the own country is rotten or that the people are without any common sense and/or morals, but a flashy parade which shows three hours of happy-pappy-wonderland is something everybody must see. It is not respect that is the device, it's the media abusing respect to control the masses.

Some believe we would have been better off if we never learned how to use fire, the wheel, or other technologies... I dunno. We'd be living in a world without space blankets, shoes that protect your feet, freeze-dried and preserved food to feed people, the freakin internet... and animation. Dang.

On the other side, if we were still be living in caves, we wouldn't know animation and all that to miss it. So that's a weak argument. We can't miss what we don't know.

And may I add that I love this thread?

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Masked Ninja

I'm glad of all the sensitivity in this thread. Cynical people make my day.

Seriously, big whoop, a bunch of "heroes" died because none of them had the ability to have their own reservations, or their launch cordinators the common sense to double check with the engineers.

Like Anark said, wave the flag all you want, I dont' know these people, I'm aware of what happened, and it was the fault of their superiors failing to listen, making them murderors, all they are to me are victims.

[iris]

Anarky, ever notice that your cynicism tends to involve many rapidfire executions?

Originally Posted by Anarky

I do my best, but I really can't stand the whole "They died a heroic death"-blahblah. Their deaths weren't heroic, they were a waste. Those were good scientists who could've used their brains to help mankind on earth, but instead they're told that some dead rock floating around in the sky which will still be around in a thousand years is more important than anything earth has to offer. So they are shot up there and they explode. And then of course, you see people waving flags and parades for them, to honour them... and yet, nobody's been helped. We still sit here with nuclear weapons, starving people, working poor and wars raging everywhere.

I have a lot to say to that, but Voltron, Masked Ninja, Fledermaus, and Fledermaus have eloquently said much of it already.

We just can't help it. The drive to explore is as much a part of us as hunger, compassion, or fear. Maybe we are driven to be foolish, but how many of us would go? How many of us would climb into that damned rocket, having been duly informed of the deplorable failure rate? A good many would. Not because it's heroic, but just because... we need to. But unlike in our explorations of our Earth, only a few of us actually can. So, with a vicarious spirit perhaps, we ship them off. You could say that that became "routine" to the public eye, but nobody involved (at least whom I've ever talked to) pretends it's safe.

We continue to fight the good fight here on the ground, and our efforts at space exploration have actually helped here too. Do you know how much good just having a photo of Earth has done for us? Talk about forcing perspective. It looks beautiful. It looks vulnerable. It's our home, ladies and gentlemen (and mutants). If you can't play nice, go live somewhere else!

There are much more practical examples of good results, but I'm not going to list them.

But yeah, to be part of this, is a good thing, and to step onto the rocket is a courageous thing even if you ended up "shredded." Hey, science is not safe. Do you know how many scientists have died of poisoning from their experiments? But that's perfectly acceptable, right?

Originally Posted by Anarky

Now, I'm not saying that they were sent to death and that they didn't know the risks, I simply say that the doctors and scientists blown to bits in those explosions, they could have used their potential in another way, helping people in a different form.

I quite vehemently resent the idea that doctors and scientists shouldn't be allowed to die by the pointless, idiotic method of their choice.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Noone is a hero for being blown to kingdom come, heroes have to do something that truly inspires the american cosmonaught...

...such as volunteering to strap themselves to a rocket for the sake of knowledge (and adventure)?

Dying is not heroic; it's what you do before that.

Originally Posted by Rikirk

Now about the moon, depending on whether or not we have the resources we should build a permanent presence there. If we dont...The Chinese certainly will. And what Im going to say may offend some...but I really dont care, they are my opinions. I for one dont fancy the fact of having a Chinese base over my head that may have weapons pointed at me.

I'm sorry but there are easier ways to attack an enemy than to aim at them from over 384,000 kilometers away!

[Machias Banshee]

Hey, come on guys, enough arguing. This was supposed to be a Memorial, not a political flamefest....

[Sewer Bull]

Originally Posted by iris

I'm sorry but there are easier ways to attack an enemy than to aim at them from over 384,000 kilometers away!

That's exactly my point too. And the whole Earth equator is just 40,000-kilometer long - that makes it a 20,000-kilometer distance at maximum to attack anyone (sory for my my shallow calculations) - 19 times less than from the Moon!

[Masked Ninja]

Originally Posted by Machias Banshee

Hey, come on guys, enough arguing. This was supposed to be a Memorial, not a political flamefest....

*sigh* That's what I had been hoping, too. In an "In honor of" thread... you honor whatever it is. Calling the astronaut's actions before their deaths (and the deaths themselves) a "waste" is missing the point of the thread, IMHO.

Ah well. Not like I'm gonna change anyone's mind. S'pose that's what I get for being an optimist.

[damnhooligan]

I'll say this: Space is cool. Astronauts are wicked awesome, dead or otherwise. I know I wouldn't have the balls to hop on a rocket loaded with several thousand pounds worth of solid fuel. I find their unrelenting pursuit of knowledge damned admirable. We're in a new Age of Discovery, folks, whether we like it or not. The people who man these shuttles are our new Vasco de Gamas, Ferdinand Magellans and Christopher Columbi.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by damnhooligan

I'll say this: Space is cool. Astronauts are wicked awesome, dead or otherwise..

...Can't argue with the logic of republicanism

...Or a guy with the best interpreation of Gadget ever in his sig...

[Anarky]

Everybody, please leave politics out of this, you know that this is not allowed. And because we all like this thread, since we can really debate over something here, we don't want it to be closed, don't we?

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Anarky

Everybody, please leave politics out of this, you know that this is not allowed. And because we all like this thread, since we can really debate over something here, we don't want it to be closed, don't we?

It was a joke comment, no offense to anyone.

[Fledermaus]

Originally Posted by Anarky

Correct, but (and that's a huge but by the way) I think we should clean up the mess in our rooms before we leave the house. I am not saying that we're not suppposed to shoot men to the moon, but what I'm saying is, that we could cut space programs in order to "clean up the room". Knowledge and everything is fine, but what good does knowing that a rock fell on the moon 150 million years ago do when you have asthma because of smog? Smog will be around for a while, but we have the tools and the knowledge to prevent and fight it. But what it lacks is money. So if we said "No, that robot to Mars is not necessary, Mars will still be around in five years" and wanted the money to go to funding of anti-smog campaigns and technologies, I say that this is something useful compared identifying a rock which will still be around in five years."

I agree. I think money should be distributed to both -- it's certainly uneven as it is now, and that should be changed. The managing of the money in general is insane, so you could say that many things are a big fat waste of taxpayers dollars -- not exclusively the space program. Ultimately, I think the reason why we explore is so we can learn more about ourselves. By studying the history of other cultures, or nature, we can get a broader view of how to address our own, current problems. Also, technology that goes into exploring outer space DOES make its way into the public.

Originally Posted by Anarky

So in your eyes, getting blown to bits inside a spaceshuttle is "taking one for the team"? Sure, people have learned that there needs to be more security checks on space shuttles before they launch, but aside from that, those shredded people have done nothing for us.

It's not the "getting blown to bits" part that I find heroic. It's what they were a part of. EVERY astronaut risks getting blown up before take-off. They are all heroes in my eyes, including scientists who stay on earth. That'Also, since the explosion, the mistake has been studied. We now know why the fuel tank exploded and -- while scientists should have been more careful (It was, in fact, the unusual change in temperature that caused the fuel tank to explode the way it did.) But that was not the astronauts fault. They were still risking their lives with the intent of expanding the knowledge of humanity. They should be remembered.

Originally Posted by Anarky

Not respect, but the masses are indeed controlled by overdone respect, such as parades and silly T-Shirts. Creating media events, live feeds from some silly parade honouring some media-proclaimed hero is nothing but crowd control. Besides, TV wastes precious airtime where they could actually tell you where help would be needed and what's wrong in front of your own doorstep. Sure, nobody wants to hear that the own country is rotten or that the people are without any common sense and/or morals, but a flashy parade which shows three hours of happy-pappy-wonderland is something everybody must see. It is not respect that is the device, it's the media abusing respect to control the masses."

I think the entertainment, video game, and media industries are controlling the masses. Forums and RPGs as well. Yet here we are, wasting our precious lives as we speak.

Originally Posted by Anarky

On the other side, if we were still be living in caves, we wouldn't know animation and all that to miss it. So that's a weak argument. We can't miss what we don't know.

Which is exactly why we should keep exploring and experimenting and trying new things, because we don't know what we can find. That's why in art, it's best not to get locked into certain styles -- always try new things -- broaden your knowledge if you can. Those who do get locked into styles usually do it so they can mass-produce their work... sure, you get your meals, it's the "smart" move, but you won't learn as much. Keep both. Not one OR the other -- more like a balance. Yes, it is possible to get accustomed to lifestyles -- bad health, McDonalds, overmarketing, pollution, murder, general corruption.... so long as people don't remember how much better things could be (or can't imagine)... it's all good.

On the other hand, both our arguments have their own validity to them. The view you defend (kind of conservative, and I don't mean politics) would be content without exploring. That is an important quality to keep things safe and stable. At the same time, exploring and experimenting has given us a great advantage over other species -- we do it more than any other.

That fine balance...

Originally Posted by Anarky

And may I add that I love this thread?

Heheh. Muchly agreed. And agree to disagree on some other things.

[iris]

Originally Posted by damnhooligan

The people who man these shuttles are our new Vasco de Gamas, Ferdinand Magellans and Christopher Columbi.

And that Magellan guy? Well he didn't exactly make it either.

I was only 7, but I remember the loss of Challenger quite vividly as a shared national experience (in the US). We were arrogant, and we had a harsh lesson. It is a learning process. To think that we could skip the part where we make mistakes is just another kind of arrogance.

We take the safety of modern airplanes for granted (more or less), but many people died in pursuit of that technology. Our current flight technology probably wouldn't have gotten such a quick start if the Wright brothers hadn't risked test-piloting their own designs and gained first-hand understanding of the control problems.

Originally Posted by Anarky

Everybody, please leave politics out of this, you know that this is not allowed. And because we all like this thread, since we can really debate over something here, we don't want it to be closed, don't we?

Why do you feel that it's appropriate (or on topic) to debate the ethics of Challenger's mission in a thread designated as a memorial to Challenger? Just curious about the rationale...

[Anarky]

Originally Posted by iris

Why do you feel that it's appropriate (or on topic) to debate the ethics of Challenger's mission in a thread designated as a memorial to Challenger? Just curious about the rationale...

I'm not debating Challenger's mission, which apparently seemed to be to get blown to bits, I'm talking about space travel in general. There's too much money and potential wasted there. Earth needs help now, the moon will still be around in a thousand years. I'm not saying that we can't blow up... ehm... send brave heroes up there, but we could waste way less money on it.

[Jo Dawn]

The reason, being politics are not allowed to be discussed on this board, as per the rules.

And, really, a healthy discussion about all this isn't so bad, really. Because, really, they were scientists, yes? And what they wanted most was to make us think. And here we are.

[iris]

Well, ok. We are discussing manned space missions via Challenger. But I don't think that was the question.

[Fledermaus]

Originally Posted by Anarky

I'm not debating Challenger's mission, which apparently seemed to be to get blown to bits, I'm talking about space travel in general. There's too much money and potential wasted there. Earth needs help now, the moon will still be around in a thousand years. I'm not saying that we can't blow up... ehm... send brave heroes up there, but we could waste way less money on it.

They weren't intending to get blown up, but to test out a new kind of shuttle to transport supplies. You knew that, of course, but you pretended like you'd never heard such a thing.

We explore, theoretically, so we can learn more to help ourselves. Broadening knowledge is always a good thing. (Or maybe it's not, according to medieval clergymen.) We might not have the kind of freedom to do these things forever. Anyways, lots of reasons why should explore space, lots of reasons why we shouldn't. You can refute all of my reasons to explore and experiment, be it nothing more than a gut feeling -- I can do likewise. So, we're just going around in endless circles on this discussion...

Iris makes a good point. As much as this topic is flourising, it doesn't pertain to the original subject of the thread, which was about the astronauts--the human beings who got caught in the Challenger accident. NOT the uselessness of the space programs. Similar subject, but not the same. Unless the thread was intended to be sort of complainy/WTF in subject matter (like the screwing of Spidey)... I've gotten the general impression, from my experiences here, that not everyone enjoys being bashed, or have something which they respect a lot get bashed -- even if you're right... It might be more polite to start another thread on the engaging subject, inspired by such a post. Especially since In this way, you can still give those who wish to see things a certain way their freedom to do so without being bashed for not thinking like you.

Admit it. We are guilty of the same sin.

Challenger, for the record, was not useless. weather and other seemingly irrelevant factors, even in the most inconspicuous of climates. The knowledge gained from the incident has made scientists more aware of the effects of subtle changes weather and other seemingly irrelevant factors. Since Challenger, scientists take into account things that were ignored before. Trial and error is a staple in scientific exploration. There is always risk.

...

That said, I can see Anarky's concern with the "waste." Rocket science involves heavy risk -- that's fine, even essential to science, but with taxpayers' money... gambling isn't a very good choice. *nods gravely*

Something that Anarky didn't mention, but that I think may defend his point on the government backing off on space exploration and concentrating more on at-home matters: Individual projects have so far proven to be more efficient than government-funded projects; generally, private enterprise, or individual or smaller group collaborations are more efficient in these areas that require fastidious attention to detail. When personal finances/resources are at stake, people are more inclined to shape up. If private companies could invest in space exploration, the government wouldn't have to spend billions on space programs. But the best thing about letting smaller groups take the risk is... in the event that any disaster occurs, it won't affect the entire nation of taxpayers, but just that group. Scientific exploration could be more of an individual quest.

I, uh, hope this isn't cutting it too close to politics.

I'll leave that up to ye mods to decide.

Sorry, Iris. I just couldn't resist. I was starting to try and connect to Anarky's point, that way the discussion could progress... Sorry.

[Jo Dawn]

I see I may have misunderstood. My apologies, iris.

[iris]

Fled, I got into a political debate at my own brother's wake; I understand the draw.

Edit: No worries, Jo. We keep posting at the same time!

[Rikirk]

As a side note to all this, I read somewhere that the U.S. Space program has the the lowest funding of all the agencies. I dont have exact numbers, but I think its like a fraction of what goes to health and human services, schooling and human services and such. I think Social Security gets the biggest slice of the budget or whatever...and its like pulling teeth for an ordinary taxpayer to get hands on that, and its supposed to belong to the public in the first place.

All I can say is Im surprised the space sciences have done so much with so little for so far. But I dont think that can last for much longer.

Anyway...if we wanted to help the people on this planet first instead of sending people into space, it wouldnt do any good 'cuz some one would tax it all back to the government pool anyway.

Theres something wrong with this world, and I still dont know what that is yet.