Splinter has Nobody

[triplexxx]

Just to note, I don't think Splinter was purposely trying to embarrass Leonardo. He just did it in front of the other turtles so that they too would get the lesson if they didn't already know it.

[Sage Ninja]

ok I'm back.

Just to note, I don't think Splinter was purposely trying to embarrass Leonardo. He just did it in front of the other turtles so that they too would get the lesson if they didn't already know it.

you may be right triplexxx that Splinter's aim was probably not humilation in this instance. I was just pointing out that Splinter disaplignary (spelling?)methods can veer from one situation to another. In this instance I feel he was a bit harsh on Leonardo (of course that is mearly my opinion), and i've mentioned before that I think Splinter is a bit more heavy handed on Leonardo than he is on the other turtles because of his asperations toward ninjitsu. I don't think he would have done the same thing if one the other turtles had said something like that. Or maybe not. It could have been that Splinter felt that Leoanrdo's over confidance in his katanas could prove to be dangerous if he became more dependent on them rather than on his own strength, which could prove to be dangerous considering the turtles are in battle so much of the time. I've notice that Splinter disapligns the turtles harshely when, what they are doing wrong could be dangerous or lead to a fatal situation.

Other than that I think Splinter is content to let the turtles make their own mistakes and face the consequences for it. Like in the episode Grudge Match when Michaelangelo disrespected him and his brothers about not needing to train because he was so damn good that he didn't need to train, and rubbed his win of Battle Nexus champion title in his brothers faces. He let Mikey deal with the sitaution all on his own, and offered him no help when it came to bite him in the ass, and even joined in with Don and Raph in taunting and torturing and throwing his words in his face. And it seemed like he didn't even give him even any encouragment eighther through out the whole ore deal as well. And if weren't for Leo helping him out Mikey would have flown completely solo on this one. So Splinter is no push over. If one of the turtles disrespects him or if one of them gets in trouble because they where acting like an ass--he'll leave let them face the consequences for it! And you know I like that. It may seem mean but I think serves to let the turtles learn they there actions have consequences.

The only thing that I don't like about Splinter when he is "trying to disaplign" one of his sons is when he gets disrespectful him self. Where goes a little over board with his methods or goes a bit to extreme. Or if he shows just a little bit to much glee in exacuting a lesson where he might torture one of the turtles. At one time I was totally writing off triplexxx's coment that Splinter had a sadistic sence of humour, but I've just about changed my mind on that one. After seeing the journal I thought he went to far with Don and Leo's stories and was down right...being insenceitive about how he went about it. I mean jeez, talk about hitting some one where they live! I can't belive he went there. That was just cruel. And I guess I could rational the reasons he went to that extreme but he just seemed to damn cheerful about the whole thing that I can't but think he was juast being a douche in that instance even if was trying to keep the boys from screwing up the past. holy heck!!

[Warhorse]

Sage Ninja, I have a question for you.

I have read on other boards how people felt Splinter brought the Turtles up in Ninjitsu because of an underlying feel of revenge against the Shredder for destroying his family.

You don't think that could be the case for Splinter? I personally thought he taught the Turtles Ninjitsu was because that was what he was the most knowledgeable in.

[Sewer Bull]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

I have read on other boards how people felt Splinter brought the Turtles up in Ninjitsu because of an underlying feel of revenge against the Shredder for destroying his family.

That clearly comes from the very first Mirage issue, doesn't it?

[Warhorse]

Never read the comics. I cant stand the format of comics, I rather read a novel and see sporadic pictures placed here and there.

[Sage Ninja]

hm, I thought maybe triplexxx would have posted back on what I said oh well

Sage Ninja, I have a question for you.

I have read on other boards how people felt Splinter brought the Turtles up in Ninjitsu because of an underlying feel of revenge against the Shredder for destroying his family.

You don't think that could be the case for Splinter? I personally thought he taught the Turtles Ninjitsu was because that was what he was the most knowledgeable in.

yeah, I pretty much said that in a few earlier posts in this thread about Splibter teaching the boys ninjitsu because of underlying feelings of resent and revenge. Not to say that Splinter doesn't really love the turtles I just think that orginally, before he got to love them as his children, that the main purpose of training them was to avenge Yoshi's death. I don't really buy that I taught them ninjitsu just so they could protect them selves line. If that where the case he could have just taught them a few self defence techniques and concealment tactics if their protection was his main concern. He didn't have to train them to be full blown ninja warriors.

[Warhorse]

But why not teach the Turtles to be full blown warriors. Many parents and parental types teach their children in what they know. And sometimes, the kids follow right in the parent's foot steps.I see this alot in Karate schools, horseback riding academies, gymnastic and figure skating school. Most of the teachers were taught by their parents, and their parents were taught by their parents, ets. Some sort of family tradition that follows down the line.

[Spawn Guy]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Never read the comics. I cant stand the format of comics, I rather read a novel and see sporadic pictures placed here and there.

Comic book formats are hardly sporadic. To each there own, of course, I'm just saying there is an order. Heck, one of the things I most enjoy about comics is how the art can surprise me.

[Warhorse]

^ I know they aren't sporadic. I would rather read a novel, getting inside a character's head, trying to see the world from their point of view, with an occasional piece of artwork, maybe every 10 or 15 pages. Comic books that I have seen, are confusing, and I cant get "into" them as I can a book or a movie.

But to each his and her own, right?

Also, by judging from some of the posters here who have read the comics, the comics tend to be a rather ridiculous in my opinion.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

But why not teach the Turtles to be full blown warriors. Many parents and parental types teach their children in what they know. And sometimes, the kids follow right in the parent's foot steps.I see this alot in Karate schools, horseback riding academies, gymnastic and figure skating school. Most of the teachers were taught by their parents, and their parents were taught by their parents, ets. Some sort of family tradition that follows down the line.

Personally, I think it takes a lot more than a simple desire to carry on a family tradition to motivate parents to make full-blown warriors out of their children, which is why I first emphasized that Splinter's main motivation was revenge; I already mentioned this in regards to Splinter in post #17 in this thread. Then again, I could be mistaken.

P.S. To respond to what Sage Ninja last wrote, I do agree that one of Splinter's most likely approaches to disciplinary action would be to let the turtles make their own mistakes and face the consequences of their own actions. Also, I see that somebody took into account what I said about Splinter's sadistic sense of humor.

[mik8la]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

But why not teach the Turtles to be full blown warriors. Many parents and parental types teach their children in what they know. And sometimes, the kids follow right in the parent's foot steps.I see this alot in Karate schools, horseback riding academies, gymnastic and figure skating school. Most of the teachers were taught by their parents, and their parents were taught by their parents, ets. Some sort of family tradition that follows down the line.

That's a great point, and connected to something I wanted to say about an earlier post: Splinter's culture is a traditional one, something radically different from what Westerners may be used to. I don't know if I can really emphasize how important family is in Asia--kids are raised not to be independent and to fend for themselves out in the world; they're raised to be integral, contributing members of a family. (If I'd stayed over there and gotten married, I'd live in the same house with my parents, my grandparents, and my aunt.) Granted, those perspectives may be changing now with the influx of Western attitudes, but it's been that way for centuries.

I guess one of the things I find interesting about the turtles is their Western environment coupled with their Eastern upbringing. I'm not surprised that Splinter uses his stick to keep the boys in line once in a while; it may seem like abuse here, but over there, as strange as it might sound, it's merely parental discipline.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by mik8la

That's a great point, and connected to something I wanted to say about an earlier post: Splinter's culture is a traditional one, something radically different from what Westerners may be used to. I don't know if I can really emphasize how important family is in Asia--kids are raised not to be independent and to fend for themselves out in the world; they're raised to be integral, contributing members of a family. (If I'd stayed over there and gotten married, I'd live in the same house with my parents, my grandparents, and my aunt.) Granted, those perspectives may be changing now with the influx of Western attitudes, but it's been that way for centuries.

I guess one of the things I find interesting about the turtles is their Western environment coupled with their Eastern upbringing. I'm not surprised that Splinter uses his stick to keep the boys in line once in a while; it may seem like abuse here, but over there, as strange as it might sound, it's merely parental discipline.

Family means a lot in the West also.
I also believe that for someone to be able to take care of and spend time with his/her family, he/she must be capable of being self-sufficient and becoming independent, especially financially.
Whether whapping kids with a stick qualifies as abuse or merely parental discipline depends on how often and for what specific reasons it's used, this is regardless of culture. What I believe is that: with any parents anywhere, talking should always be their first resort, and whapping should be their last. Parents should whap their kids after and only after they've made absolutely certain that talking things out won't work, but as long as "talking" remains an available option (and it does in most parental situations if parents have the proper amount of patience and self-control) it should always take the place of hitting. Parents should give their kids a fair amount of chances to learn through parental lectures, and begin whapping them only after they've used up all their chances.
When parents let their kids face the consequences of their own actions, that means they neither talk to them nor hit them, and this is also a fair disciplinary approach as long as the consequences won't be too dangerous or fatal.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Oh yeah, that makes for intresting gags. Mikey slacks off and says something stupid, or the Turltes get out of line, and Splinter sits them down and gives them a 7 minute lecture on the importance of understanding.

Pardon my French but **** that ****.

A quick whap to the head gets the point across quicker and funnier.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

Oh yeah, that makes for intresting gags. Mikey slacks off and says something stupid, or the Turltes get out of line, and Splinter sits them down and gives them a 7 minute lecture on the importance of understanding.

Pardon my French but **** that ****.

A quick whap to the head gets the point across quicker and funnier.

Quicker? yes.
Funnier? no.
At least I don't think so, but you go ahead & think about the way you want to.

[Spawn Guy]

To kids and the majority of the audience? Probably.

[Stimor]

Splinter has suffered long from it, causing him to have such weird hobbies. like raising 4 mutant ninja turtles!

[Sage Ninja]

Hmm... betrayal. Yeah, I think you're right. In fact, I think that Mikey goes ahead and blows off the headsmacks and seemingly degrading comments because he knows they're just in jest and he prefers not to sweat the small stuff. (and Raph's "adults are talking" line makes me giggle every time, haha) But I can see him and Raph getting into a fight where Raph sounds just a little too sincere in his insults, and Mikey refusing to talk to him for several days. Now, a full betrayal as opposed to a fight... you're right. I bet it would completely destroy him.

Raph and Mikey have an interesting brotherly relationship. They seem to be close but for the most part seem to always be at each other throats all the time. I notice that both seem capable of inciteing the strongest reactions out of each other. Like if Michelangelo where to ever get pushed enough where he would flip out and get angry at one of his brothers, I have a very good feeling that I would have been because Raph was responciable. I think the reason for this is because, deep down I think Raph and Mikey are very much alike and share a diffrent sort of bond with each other than the other turtles do. And you know, they say you generally hurt the onee you love the most. As for betrayal? I didn't exactly mean a betrayal of one of the brothers. What i emant is Mikey was ever in a situation where he was betrayed by some one close to him and his brother wheren't there for him or something.

While certain situations are funny, I agree in that Mikey is portrayed way to submissive.

From my take on things, Donetello is pretty much the most laid back of the four. But even he isn't gonna take crap from no one, so that leaves poor Mikey to get the blunt of the blows.

That is what I mean. I agree that of the two Dontello is more laid back than Mikey and yet I have a feeling that he wouldn't take crap from any one not even Raph. In fact I get the impression that the other turtles are reluctant to peeve Donatello off, and usally take his moments of grumpiness in stride rather than egging him on for it. I remeber when Don chased Raph out of his work shop with a hammer because he was annoying him. I guess i wish the writters would make Mikey a little more assertive and less like goof (not that his goofiness is bad) because it gets old after awhile seeing him so...an object of a joke all the time.

But kudos to Mikey, in his ability to get the worst out of Raph at times! He used Raph's temper to his advantage, showing he does have tactical.

Actually I didn't like that he did that to Raph, it wasn't tactical manurveing so much as it was him taking advantage of Raph. And then he had the gaul to rub it in Raph's face! I can totally understand Raph's reaction to that. Mikey cheated him, and lorded over him for months because. Its instances like that where Mikey acts like a jerk That I don't like. And when Grudge mAtch happend, I will admit there was a small little piece of me that wanted Mikey to get his come uppance in that episode.

[Rooish]

Sage Ninja, I totally agree with what you said; Mike and Raph do have a very interesting and complex relationship which I fear will be completely ignored in the upcoming movie. And no one messes with Don! And also, it was unkind of Mikey to use Raph's anger to his advantage in the Battle Nexus. If Raph had gotten in physical contact with Mikey during that battle, I would have liked to see who would have won the battle! My guess is that Mikey would have come out pretty bruised, whoever won. Mikey at least shouldn't have teased Raph about the thing afterwards.

Splinter has always been kind of sketchy in my opinion... he keeps too much from his sons in all incarnations of the Turtles, and a lot of stuff he does is pretty weird. From somehow learning ninjitsu when he was just an ordinary pet rat (this I find more unrealistic and unbelievable than anything else in the series), to training the TMNT just so they would kill Shredder in revenge (when Splinter has proven that he is quite an adequate fighter himself; why didn't he just attack Shredder, or at least come with his sons when they fought Shredder?), to his favouritism for Leo, to his method of using physical abuse to keep his sons in line. I'm sorry, but hitting your kid with a stick is inexcusable and very abusive. Kids watch this show; how do you think seeing this affects them? I know slapstick is funny and I know it's a cartoon, but impressionable people are watching.

I know that Mikey acts like an idiot sometimes, but why do you think he does? Because he wants attention, maybe? And why does he want attention? Well, maybe because no one respects Mikey and he has no way of gaining attention otherwise, because he doesn't have the discipline or interest in being a warrior. And because he acts dumb to get attention, people respect him even less. It's cyclical. Yes, Mikey should learn humility, but through an understanding conversation, not through violence (which will probably just make him less confident and more likely to act out--this is pretty much proven in studies about child abuse). Maybe that would be boring to watch on TV, but if the show writers just made Mikey less annoying, then we wouldn't have to deal with this whole situation. What does childhood abuse create? An abuser, or a person with horrible self-esteem who allows himself to be abused for his whole life. I think that's why Mikey, as a teenager, still puts up with the others hitting him.

I don't dislike Splinter, but I try to just ignore some of the bad things he does, because otherwise I would dislike him.

[mik8la]

As I scan over the replies to this post since yesterday, I realize that we've essentially boiled down to debating the merits of a giant rat using a stick to discipline four mutated adolescent turtles who can flip over cars.

Family means a lot in the West also.

I never implied that it didn't. It's just different. It's very hard to explain; if I tried to do so here I'd probably have to touch on a lot of sensitive and irrelevant subjects, so I won't. And I'm not saying that just because your culture is different means you can be overlooked for committing child abuse; I just pointed out that this kind of discipline isn't unusual or sinister in some cultures. I know the difference between corporeal punishment and outright abuse, and in all honesty, I've yet to see Splinter cross the line.

As for his alleged abuse of Mikey...didn't Raph hit him more than Splinter did? And like Sage Ninja pointed out with the Battle Nexus boasting (and the Leatherhead-baiting), sometimes Mikey seems to be asking for it. I never saw anything overtly sinister in those exchanges. And Splinter's favoritism of Leo: I never saw it. You don't see him rag on Leo as much as the others, but then again you don't see him rag on Don either, because the two of them are usually well-behaved anyway. If you think he lets Leo get away with stuff his brothers don't, well, Raph nearly beat Mikey's head in with a pipe and Splinter let him go topside to get some air. So favoritism? No. I think Splinter's actually harder on Leo than his brothers--why would he not allow him to have a weakness (i.e., heights) when his brothers are permitted to be freaked out by bugs, or have a lack of focus, or more interested in tech?

[triplexxx]

You are right that Splinter does not show favoritism. Personally, I think Splinter is equally hard on all his sons, except when they misbehave; they're all hard-core warriors who get involved in a lot of dangerous business, and a lot is to be expected out of all of them. And all of them have weaknesses and fears, it's not that Splinter permits it, it's just life, but all the turtles have proven themselves very courageous and capable in battle; otherwise, how could they all have survived up to this point?
P.S. Raphael isn't afraid of bugs, they just annoy him a lot, as do a lot of other things.