Is "Turtles Forever" canon in the comics?

[jaymq]

I loved Turtles Forever, but I lean towards no based on two things. I'm big on the mirage-verse over the others... which leads me to the second. The 2k3 turtles overshadowed every other universe they showed of the Turtles based on the fact that it was 4kids movie. Even the OTs imo.

Don't get me wrong, I love how they portrayed the originals and the voices were great, I just feel like ... despite seeming to try appealing to more audiences, they still managed to try and make their own look the 'best'. And gave them the most attention.

[Logan]

Just discovered this thread and I thought I'd dig it up for more discussion.

My opinion on whether or not Turtles Forever is canon to Mirage/Image is... no.

For one thing, it would change everything Kevin and Peter established as history, and something tells me Peter would refuse to do that. He's far too protective of his stories to allow them to get tainted by tie-in material. Which brings me to my next point.

The multiverse seen in Turtles Forever only exists in 2k3 cartoon. In no way does it connect to the other Turtle franchises, be it Mirage, the movies, the OT, or Archie. Likewise, none of these franchises connect to the others.

Turtle Prime is not the Mirage continuity. It's a universe based off of it, however.

[Venom]

Originally Posted by Logan

and something tells me Peter would refuse to do that.

The multiverse seen in Turtles Forever only exists in 2k3 cartoon. In no way does it connect to the other Turtle franchises, be it Mirage, the movies, the OT, or Archie

Actually, the crossover concept was Peter's idea, going back several years.

The universes are connected too, hence we saw the images of different Mirage covers, same with Archie. Turtles Forever was the realization of 2K3, Fred Wolf, and Mirage that they were all part of a multiverse.

The question then comes up as to why do the Mirage Turtles not remember the Death Drome or Ch'rell? Simple, Renet fixed it.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by wilddiverse

So having a Galaxy Dimension X located in the Dimension Dimension X
would allow Archie Krang and Fred Wolf Krang to be one and the same
because Fred Wolf Krang is from the Dimension Dimension X?

If we assume that the entire Archie Universe is located inside Dimension X and Krang is from, say, "Galaxy X" within this universe... then yes, yes it would work.

Imagine if the Archie and Fred Wolf series happened in that order. We never did see the Technodrome and Krang never quite found a body in the real Archie material... imagine this: one day Krang completes his conquering of the Archie universe (Dimension X) and it's THEN that he sets his sites on the Fred Wolf universe (let's call it Dimension C) and the cartoon begins.

[Abnormal Freak]

I find multiverses retarded, so while I think it's a fun and amusing concept in Turtles Forever, I see it as something exclusive to the movie (or 2K3 show).

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Abnormal Freak

I find multiverses retarded, so while I think it's a fun and amusing concept in Turtles Forever, I see it as something exclusive to the movie (or 2K3 show).

Well, it's an established as a fact in the Mirage universe as well!

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

If we assume that the entire Archie Universe is located inside Dimension X and Krang is from, say, "Galaxy X" within this universe... then yes, yes it would work.

Imagine if the Archie and Fred Wolf series happened in that order. We never did see the Technodrome and Krang never quite found a body in the real Archie material... imagine this: one day Krang completes his conquering of the Archie universe (Dimension X) and it's THEN that he sets his sites on the Fred Wolf universe (let's call it Dimension C) and the cartoon begins.

That's a hilarious theory! Hence, Krang's frustration with the Fred Wolf Shredder being the bumbling idiot he is!

[The Big Bad]

Originally Posted by wilddiverse

"Turtles Prime" could be the initial standalone creation: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1, the spark that ignited all other permutations. It was released essentially as a one-shot, it was Kevin and Peter taking a shot, and because it made a big bang-- a second issue crawled out of the primordial ooze and then came universal expansion. In the beginning was Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1.

That was how I always saw it: Turtles Prime's history ends after Leonardo throws away the Shredder's gauntlet at the end of TMNT (Vol. 1) #1; it's the reason why they had to go there, instead of, say, in the middle of the events of volume 4, and why none of the "Mirage" turtles present any of the traits that would latter be attached to them. The Mirage-verses is "just" another offshoot, albeit one that follows from the event of Turtle Prime much more directly than the others.

As for how canonical it is, the way I see it that it happened, but none of the players involved (the Mirage Turtles and the Mirage Shredder) actually remember it--they just went to sleep that night and when they woke up, they got a "re-do" of the events of that day, with no memory of ever meeting their counterparts. Who "fixed" things? Lord Simultaneous or Eastman and Laird, take your pick.

As for the Fred Wolf versions, half the time I feel they went through the same reboot as the one I suggest the Prime turtles went through, while at other half I feel that Turtles Forever is canon, and that the reason the Technodrome doesn't appear in its upgraded form is because of a really consistent animation error.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

I feel that Turtles Forever is canon, and that the reason the Technodrome doesn't appear in its upgraded form is because of a really consistent animation error.

You WIN, sir.

[Donnie]

I see it as canon for the 2k3 series, but not for the comics. A parallel universe, maybe.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by moosandra

I loved Turtles Forever, but I lean towards no based on two things. I'm big on the mirage-verse over the others... which leads me to the second. The 2k3 turtles overshadowed every other universe they showed of the Turtles based on the fact that it was 4kids movie. Even the OTs imo.

Don't get me wrong, I love how they portrayed the originals and the voices were great, I just feel like ... despite seeming to try appealing to more audiences, they still managed to try and make their own look the 'best'. And gave them the most attention.

Well it was basically a 2K3 movie... it was more like... the 2K3 TMNT meet the 80's TMNT... not the 80's TMNT meet the 2K3 TMNT.... big difference...

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by DonnyTMNT

I see it as canon for the 2k3 series, but not for the comics. A parallel universe, maybe.

Likewise. If you ask me, it was the real ending to the 2K3 series....

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Venom

The universes are connected too, hence we saw the images of different Mirage covers, same with Archie. Turtles Forever was the realization of 2K3, Fred Wolf, and Mirage that they were all part of a multiverse.

All those universes seen in Turtles Forever belong to that universe. In other words, there is a Mirage universe in 2k3, but it's not the same one as the Mirage comics. It might have the same ideas, characters, etc. but the comics and shows don't connect to each other.

Simplified...

Mirage Comics
Mirage Universe

2k3
2k3 Universe
Mirage Universe 2k3
Fred Wolf/Archie 2k3

And so on...

Plus, if we do accept that each franchise is related we run into the problem of continuity problems. For example, TMNT is shown as a separate universe from the first Turtles film when we know that they share the same continuity. Another example could be said of the Fred Wolf cartoon and the anime, as the latter is more or less a side-story to the former.

[Cryomancer]

I think making prime be anything other than the absolute for-real issue 1 kind of defeats most of the purpose and impact of going there to begin with. I say it's the real thing, and as it's such a major threat level event to the entire fabric of the reality of the franchise, it certainly should/would be repaired by E&L or Simultaneous after the end of the movie. I don't think the Mirage TMNT would remember the others. That also makes the reveal in Mirage later on able to still be a big shock to them. I'd imagine Renet knows all this stuff too by some point.

Obviously, saying "Simultaneous fixes everything in all universes" is an overly simple sounding solution...but if events like Turtles Forever aren't within his jurisdiction / job description, what the hell is?

And I am also cool with the Battle Nexus and the cow being the same thing across all continuities. Again, the whole point of the Nexus is being able to bring whatever they want to together, so it would be pretty dumb and overly complex if it means "anything within this chunk of the multiverse's own multiverse". Far as I'm concerned, the Battle Nexus could host extended-roster Shredder Wars for ticket sales and start it off with a bonus all-Usagi brawl. There's only really one Venus though, so no she-turtle bikini mud wrestling on Friday nights.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Cryomancer

"Simultaneous fixes everything in all universes" is an overly simple sounding solution...but if events like Turtles Forever aren't within his jurisdiction / job description, what the hell is?

I like this, haha.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Logan

All those universes seen in Turtles Forever belong to that universe. In other words, there is a Mirage universe in 2k3, but it's not the same one as the Mirage comics. It might have the same ideas, characters, etc. but the comics and shows don't connect to each other.

Simplified...

Mirage Comics
Mirage Universe

2k3
2k3 Universe
Mirage Universe 2k3
Fred Wolf/Archie 2k3

And so on...

Plus, if we do accept that each franchise is related we run into the problem of continuity problems. For example, TMNT is shown as a separate universe from the first Turtles film when we know that they share the same continuity. Another example could be said of the Fred Wolf cartoon and the anime, as the latter is more or less a side-story to the former.

You're all mixed up, man.

First of all, Turtle Prime is the Mirage Universe. Except everyone interrupts the events of Issue #1, thus creating a branched off continuity. Watch the latest Star Trek movie if you don't know what I'm talking about.

Secondly, a lot of the different pictures in the multiverse scene were in the same continuity as one another. They had Mitchroney and Chris Allan's different sets of turtles, but they share the same universe, same goes with Berger, Lawson, Farley, Dooney and the rest of the Mirage guys. So just because the first movie and "TMNT" are shown seperately doesn't mean they're different canons.

[Logan]

First of all, Turtle Prime is the Mirage Universe.

You're absolutely right. Turtle Prime is the Mirage Universe. For the 2k3 cartoon. It's exactly the same as the the comic except that the 2k3 turtles show up.

Except everyone interrupts the events of Issue #1, thus creating a branched off continuity. Watch the latest Star Trek movie if you don't know what I'm talking about.

Once again you prove my point. If the 2k3 turtles arrival creates a new continuity, it isn't the same as the Mirage comics. They are separate and unrelated.

Secondly, a lot of the different pictures in the multiverse scene were in the same continuity as one another. They had Mitchroney and Chris Allan's different sets of turtles, but they share the same universe, same goes with Berger, Lawson, Farley, Dooney and the rest of the Mirage guys.

Which further reinforces my opinion. These are being portrayed as being different continuities and universes when, outside of the 2k3 toon, they quite clearly are not.

[oknazevad]

I'm not sure if it's a "yes" or "no".

I think it happened, but I don't think they remember it. Well, maybe old Leo could but that would be another story.

At the end of Turtles Forever they said that Turtles Prime was repairing itself, and I took this to mean the timeline as well as the damage caused by the Utrom Shredder. So the events of Turtles Forever happened, but when the Technodrome left and everyone went back to their own universes, the timeline repaired itself to the actual events of TMNT Vol. 1 #1

Wow, moving from lurking to posting!

I think this "feels" the most right to me; the "repairs" seen are a bit of a reset, allowing the Mirage Universe to continue as we've always known it, without invalidating the main story thrust that "Turtle Prime" is infact the Mirage Universe.

The idea that it's in the multiverse with the 2K3 but not the actual Mirage universe doesn't work with the concept of multiverse theory at all. Either there really is only one universe, or there's an infinite number all equally valid. So while there's walls between universes in the multiverse, any of them can cross over with any other, so long as such a mechanism exists.

The transdimemsional portal (originally from the 87 cartoon), Cudley the Cowlick (originally from the Archie series), and the Battle Nexus (originally from the 2K3 series) are all such mechanisms. And two out of three of them appeared in the Mirage comics. So I have no problem with the idea that Turtles Forever's final act actually took place in the Mirage universe, only for its effects to be reversed there (and only there). What it means for the 87 and 2K3 universes I don't know, as the series both ended.

[pannoni1]

I'm learning toward yes, as obviously the events of Back to The Sewers, well after the Vol. 1-based stories in the first 4 four seasons took place, and that reverts to having the "real Mirage" Vol. 1 #1 turtles take place, complete with black & white animation! Turtles Forever made it clear to me that 4kids and Mirage, while having similar storylines at times, are NOT the same universe! Compare/reatch/read some episode summaries that were based on comics and you'll notice some differences, meaning that the universes are not parallel at all! It's no different than Fred Wolf/Archie, where altough the two are identical at the start, both diverge. What we can say is perhaps in the animation continuity, the events of TMNT Vol. 1 #1 happen coincidentally with the conclusion of the 4kids universe. And welcome to the forum, oknazevad!