Healthcare reform

[shredder17]

my intention was never to talk about the bible but someone said jesus was socialist and quoted a bible verse and i wanted to respond. and by the way the bible has a lot to do with politics, economics and the philosophy of government. the reason why there is such a great debate on healthcare is that we have different expectations on what government should be in involved in. i like many conservative and christian americans believe that truth is founded on the bible and natural law and our rights come from God and not the state. the founding fathers believed in natural law and the understanding that we were all created equal by God. so from these truthes we believe in limit government, ownership of private property, free market economy, democratic in our voting of leaders but republican in ''rule by law'' instead of full democracy in ''rule by majority''. the problem with socialist and communist governments is that they reject natural law and the understanding that our rights are from God. in the communist governments rights come from the state and property and capital belong to the state. many believe that this is unbiblical and fight against it. so its because of the bible that i many people throughout history have been opposed to these systems. so the bible does have a lot to do with this debate. you can never really separate politics and religion. you will hear people say ''STOP TRYING TO LEGISLATE MORALITY" but all laws are the codifed morality of a group of people. you might disagree with all of this but i dont think we can say "LEAVE THE BIBLE OUT OF A POLITCAL DEBATE".

[Mecha Cow]

but i dont think we can say "LEAVE THE BIBLE OUT OF A POLITCAL DEBATE".

We can and will. Like it or not; not your entire country shares your beliefs, but you do have to share the same government.

[shredder17]

on the humor issue i was not saying i want to stop free speech but i find it inconsistent that one would joke about dead babies and then be horrified at a holocost joke. and the abortion issue is a topic in the healthcare debate because its very possible if its passed tax money would go to abortion. obama promised planned parenthood before his election that he would do all he can to include abortion in a public option.

[Leo656]

No, there are no limits to humor, and I'm pretty sure I never got offended by any jokes about the Holocaust...

But then again, I'm the guy who, whenever some smart aleck makes an "I banged yo momma" joke, I just say "Hope you brought a shovel and a miner's lamp, moron, she's f*ckin' DEAD."

So maybe I'm just bent.

But yeah, no matter what you believe in, everybody needs to just get some George Carlin DVDs an' lighten the F up.

Which reminds me... What's the difference between the George Carlin DVD box set, and a fetus in a jar? I sadly do not have the Carlin box set sitting on my desk.

Last post from me in this thread, promise.

[GK Punk]

Originally Posted by Wingnut

No. You're too late anyway, blue humor has already been invented.

Also, don't talk about the bible in a political thread. Just my 2 cents.

Agreed, and hey look I'm here to make it official!

[shredder17]

please guys understand that i not forcing my views on anyone. i understand that we all have different views i was just sharing mine. its just a friendly debate. i have a good friend thats a satanist and he hates all christians except me. i have friends from almost all points of view and they know me that would not force my views or hate anyone for being different. i really like you guys and i am eternally in your debt for all the information you have given me through the years on the turtles. thanks

[GK Punk]

Christianity isn't the problem. The debate is t he problem as it gets too personal and degrades in to arguments quicker than any other topic known to man.

[PAAATE]

Originally Posted by GK

Christianity isn't the problem. The debate is t he problem as it gets too personal and degrades in to arguments quicker than any other topic known to man.

As long as it doesn't degrade into hell I think we should let religion be part of the discussion

shredder17 obviously is a Christian, and because of that has Christian values

I'm not religious in any way myself, but I still think that most religious texts have a lot of good points about love and understanding, and, in my eyes, one of the biggest problems with society today is that people have no understanding for each other.. That creates a gap much wider than anything economy, race or sexuality can create..

So as long as the discussion does stay civil, at least I don't mind the bible

But... yeah, health care-discussion anyone?

[GK Punk]

The reason everyone is so against it, is these forums don't exactly have a good rep for religeous discussion. 100% of the time it sadly, degrades fast...

If everyone can stay mature about it, go for it.

[Canadian Turtle]

Originally Posted by shredder17

please guys understand that i not forcing my views on anyone. i understand that we all have different views i was just sharing mine. its just a friendly debate. i have a good friend thats a satanist and he hates all christians except me. i have friends from almost all points of view and they know me that would not force my views or hate anyone for being different. i really like you guys and i am eternally in your debt for all the information you have given me through the years on the turtles. thanks

You were responding to one of my post, so I brought, so I'll try to put it to rest.

First I wasn't making a joke, I was pointing out an opinion, I don't think many "jokes" are being made here.

Sadly we should not get into a religious discussion on this board, because it does get heated on both sides and that isn't good for anyone.

This is a secular nation (north america as a whole), in which case I am proud to say Church and State are two different things, and it is of my opinion that in cases where they are to close, CHAOS rules and a lot of people get hurt.

I am not making a personal attack when I say I wish you hadn't brought abortion into this conversation at all, you are entitled to your own opinion, but the fact that you are making that connection in a public forum like this makes me both sad and angry. It is my belief that it is an essential service, and if it is going to be used as propaganda ammo in a public health care debate like this, then I say stay private health care and avoid the trip back to the dark ages.

And ThirdMario! I am glad we are on the same page, your comment to my post was spot on.

[Anarky]

Weren't we talking about health care in this thread? As far as I know, Jesus has never been insured by anyone, so he can stay that way for now. Seriously, religion on this board - trust me - it's a bad idea.

Besides, it's against the forum rules anyways, so: If you want to stay here, keep Jesus in your heart and leave him there.

Apparently, there are a lot of things that aren't clear about this whole healthcare thing, so having a place where we can voice those concerns and pro-arguments and get the insights of people who have lived in a system with what you're hopefully about to get for years. Besides, it's one of the most interesting threads on here in ages, so it would be such a shame to see it go kaput because of some religious argument that could easily be avoided.

[Katie]

^^ Agreed, and BTW you economics post was perfect. you beat me to those thoughts.


The most amusing thing to me in the whole healthcare debate is how it has blown COMPLETELY out of control. I have never seen so many people be so completely polarized by this. We had a healthcare debate back in the Clinton years and there weren't people hopping on "tea party" busses and working euthanasia and other scare tactics into the debate.

I truely think that alot of the vile, negative propoganda is coming because of the man who is presenting it this time around. That and people dumbly taking other people's word as gospel on this instead of looking at the thing for themselves.

[Anarky]

Originally Posted by Katie

^^ Agreed, and BTW you economics post was perfect. you beat me to those thoughts.

Thank you very much. Turns out the only thing my economics degree is good for is to tell people on the internet how the business world works.

The most amusing thing to me in the whole healthcare debate is how it has blown COMPLETELY out of control. I have never seen so many people be so completely polarized by this. We had a healthcare debate back in the Clinton years and there weren't people hopping on "tea party" busses and working euthanasia and other scare tactics into the debate.

I truely think that alot of the vile, negative propoganda is coming because of the man who is presenting it this time around. That and people dumbly taking other people's word as gospel on this instead of looking at the thing for themselves.

Both these points can be explained by the discovery of the internet. Us regular Joes have discovered the internet long ago and through us, it has evolved into a behemoth of information, disinformation, lolcats and social networking.

However, Obama was actually the first one to use the internet or "New Media" in general for political purposes. He made a whole campaign in the form of viral marketing. Needless to say, everyone saw what huge impact this had so everyone tries it now. You get angry letters about how you'd euthanise people alongside people who claim that they should be on some list because they're liberals and a cat playing with an american flag with the caption "Dis Amerkah iz purty helfy!"

Because this is new for everyone, nobody really knows what to make of it yet, so the confusion is understandable. The few who actually know what's going on get flooded away by the many panicking and overexaggerating everything.

What certainly doesn't help is the American tendency to overexaggerate everything to the point where they essentially parodying their own standpoint. There's this video going around of a single mother complaining to an opponent of the healthcare thing in public. And she's holding her son and uses language "as heard on TV." She's a farce who once had a valid point and thought she'd illustrate it by being an overdramatic cow. She didn't even get to the point where she could have gotten her point across because the way she presented it was too ridiculous.

[Sewer Bull]

Originally Posted by shredder17

i like many conservative and christian americans believe that truth is founded on the bible and natural law and our rights come from God and not the state. the founding fathers believed in natural law and the understanding that we were all created equal by God. so from these truthes we believe in limit government, ownership of private property, free market economy, democratic in our voting of leaders but republican in ''rule by law'' instead of full democracy in ''rule by majority''. the problem with socialist and communist governments is that they reject natural law and the understanding that our rights are from God. in the communist governments rights come from the state and property and capital belong to the state. many believe that this is unbiblical and fight against it.

Where exactly in the Bible is all that?

And if any mod thinks this discussion is getting off-topic, please move the Bible part to a new thread, this is getting interesting.

[The Stryker]

Other than shining a light on the true faces of some of the members here. I love this thread for giving me this ad

[Voltron]

I do believe Christ was the originator of free health care. He was always healing the blind and the sick and what not. So, really, if you don't LIKE free health care, you hate Jesus.

[The Stryker]

You-You have a point there. Never shall I doubt you.

[Barkworm]

Voltron's logic is ultimate.

[Sewer Bull]

Ditto. I think we can close this thread now, Voltron owned everyone.

[Katie]

Isn't it amazing how much better you understand some of this suff if you know how business works! I have a pretty useless business degree myself, but it's great to have learned how things work in the market.

Originally Posted by Anarky

What certainly doesn't help is the American tendency to overexaggerate everything to the point where they essentially parodying their own standpoint. There's this video going around of a single mother complaining to an opponent of the healthcare thing in public. And she's holding her son and uses language "as heard on TV." She's a farce who once had a valid point and thought she'd illustrate it by being an overdramatic cow. She didn't even get to the point where she could have gotten her point across because the way she presented it was too ridiculous.

I know exactly what you're talking about. The media has a knack for finding the most rediculous people to illustrate their slant in the debate. I see the most rediculous sounding supporters of the plan played 24/7 on Fox news and the most evil portrayals of people who are against it on CNN. I get so tired of it that I literally change the channel or leave the room when they interview someone on the debate.

It seems like lately that anything attached to Obama gets blown out of proportion, no matter what it is, before it happens, only to disappear completely once he's finished whatever it was and everyone sees it was a non-issue.

case in point, the education speech. OMG. i have never seen so many people get so up in arms over a presidential speech. "I'm keeping my kids home from school!" "He's trying to brain wash our kids into accepting a liberal agenda!"

Holy crap people! Most school age kids haven't developed the brain maturation needed to understand political concepts (this happens around age 14-16 BTW....the ability to understand abstract concepts) How can they be brainwashed?

Then the speech happens and it is the most benign "stay in school, you need education to achieve your goals" thing you have ever heard in your life. now it's a non issue.

He (Obama) has been made out to be such a demon that almost everythign he does is met with such negative propoganda and anger that it seems like nothing will ever get done.

I just get so angry. If people would just learn for two seconds to think for themselves instead of regurgitating all the crap on TV....take time to look at the facts. THE REAL FACTS. Read the healthcare bill. I did! THEN make your judgements.