Healthcare reform

[Cure]

Before we begin, I got special permission to create this thread so keep it civil and blah blah.

SO, what's everybody's opinion on this issue that seems to be everywhere (in the US)? I'm as confused as ever and tried looking it up and whatnot but still don't get what's going on, and if anything, it'll affect me a lot cuz I need to see a doctor every 4 weeks. So what's going on?

[Ninjinister]

Your guess is as good as mine. I haven't been following it at all, but I went to research it the other day to see what all the hubbub was about, and couldn't make heads or tails about what all of these yahoos are babbling about. Everything I turn up is either conflicting, biased, or just plain nonsensical.

[Wingnut]

There's no money to be made solving this problem. Hence, it will never have a concrete resolution. My mom broke her arm last summer and the total bill was 12000 dollars, for a broken f*cking arm.

Do you think the swine that ended up getting that 12k are going to give their gravy train up without one hell of a fight? Hell no.

Too many crooked f*ckers making too much money off honest people. It will take more than a piece of paper to stop that. It's self sustaining at this point.

[That Matt Guy]

Free health care in the US will never happen, unfortunately.

[Cure]

So is that what this is about? Making healthcare free?

[Sewer Bull]

Originally Posted by That Matt Guy

Free health care in the US will never happen, unfortunately.

Is there any place in the world where it is free, except for some rich Arabic countries like Kuwait?

[Canadian Turtle]

Originally Posted by Mino

Is there any place in the world where it is free, except for some rich Arabic countries like Kuwait?

Canada... the UK, France, most developed nations with a semi liberal government.

The saddest part of this is... there are many many many Americans who DO NOT want free Health Care... If you can explain that one without sounding ridiculous... well I'll eat my shoe.

I was born in a nation where we take care of each other, and I don't care what anyone says about "higher taxes" or "wanting to pay for services they get"... I say bullsh!t.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Canadian Turtle

there are many many many Americans who DO NOT want free Health Care...

There is no such thing as free health care.

[The Stryker]

Spoilers. This isn't going to end well.

I honestly don't see what's wrong with trying to reform healthcare the way they're going about it.

[Cure]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

There is no such thing as free health care.

Alright, enlighten me. Why not?

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by TheCure

Alright, enlighten me. Why not?

Because even if you're not handing money over to the receptionist, you're still paying for it with taxes. Nothing's free.

[The Stryker]

I would rather pay a few extra dollars in taxes than thousands of f*cking dollars to get my arm in a cast while paying normal taxes on top of that.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Stryker

I would rather pay a few extra dollars in taxes than thousands of f*cking dollars to get my arm in a cast while paying normal taxes on top of that.

That's fine, and easy enough to say, but that's essentially what the divide on the issue comes down to. Personally, I would rather pay for my own broken arm than collectively help pay for everyone else's.

I just did a quick google search to get these numbers, so I don't know their accuracy, but something like 95% of all income tax is paid by only he top 3% of income earners, and the lower 40% pay no tax, with a very large percent of them actually getting money back in the form of EIC credit and such.

So you're putting the bulk of the responsibility of the health of the nation on actually very few people. And that's in addition to all of the other services taxes already pay for. And for all of that we're something like $9 Trillion in debt?

I really don't want to debate people on the issue, I'm just presenting that side of it. I honestly know very little about the current deal that is being proposed, so I really can't speak of a specific opinion on it. I recognize the health care system we currently have is greatly flawed and there's a lot of room for improvement, but I do wish it wasn't something the President was trying to get passed ASAP. Right now it just feels to me like it's something he wants to get passed for the sake of getting it passed, rather than the sake of getting it right and really making the system better.

[Hannah]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

I just did a quick google search to get these numbers, so I don't know their accuracy, but something like 95% of all income tax is paid by only he top 3% of income earners, and the lower 40% pay no tax, with a very large percent of them actually getting money back in the form of EIC credit and such.

Take from the rich and give to the poor!

[The Stryker]

Those poor rich people. If only they had disposable income!

[Ninjinister]

The entire reason taxes exist is to collectively pay for important things. I know not all taxes go to said causes, but if my few extra bucks are going to saving someone's life or livelyhood, I'm all for it. The karma might kick back in my favor some day.

[Anarky]

I seriously have no mercy for the rich.

On another note. The whole system you lot are fighting so fiercly over has been reality over here for about ninety years. It's evolved into a sort of semi-privatized thing and it works pretty well. Over here, you get a bill at the end of the month and you pay that bill. It's not that much, really. And if you can't pay it, there's plenty of rich folks who pay way more and so you can still go to the doctors if you need it. However, I'd like to do it via taxes, to be honest, that would be really fair. But I suppose there wouldn't be profit in a fair system.

What's neat, too, is that the insurances get special discounts in hospitals, so while you'd pay $12000 to get your arm in a cast, the insurance has to pay considerably less, which once again shifts the baggage off the actual sick people.

Granted, Americans don't really like caring for each other, as voiced here and everywhere else, and they're apparently still afraid of communism, which is ridiculous, but it does work and it does a whole lot of good. And I'd be willing to say that a lot less people die because of it. And whatever keeps people alive is okay in my book.

[Katie]

Healthcare reform is needed baddly. I've had my share of experiences with it.

I'll tell you the bottom line, Cure. what they are wanting to do is reqire everyone in the country to have some form of health insurance so that no one is left with no means to pay. This will be achieved by requiring people who do not have health insurance to buy into one of several as yet determined options including the dreaded public option which is being deamonized in the town Hall meetings (around here anyway) Other ideas being insurance co-ops where large groups of people band together to buy private insurance at the same rate big corporations can.

There is a bill in congress which is HUGE and alot of really inflamitory press / commercials / general misinformation floating around making everyone really scared (from what I can tell.)

My disclaimer is that I am for the President's bill (but given that I am a Democrat, you guys probably knew that anyway)

People who are against the bill will give arguments like this will cause higher taxes, illegal immigrants will be covered, the whole "death panel" scare tactic. They say that a public option for low income people will cause employers to drop their company insurance in favor of making their employees take the public option. In a nut shell, higher taxes and the death of private insurance / private medicine.

People who are for the bill will give arguments such as the government "public option" alternative for low income people will provide competition to the big insurance companies and will drive prices down. (ie if they are losing customers to a cheaper public option they will have to provide lower cost products to retain customers and stay in business) In a nut shell. lower costs will occur with competition.


Here's my 2 cents. The US health care system is an abomination. Doctors work a'la carte in their practices meaning that they receive pay based on the number and types of transactions that they do. Alot of times if you go to multiple doctors you will have the same tests over and over as each does their due diligence and thereby causing the insurance companies to pay for redundant testing, which then drives prices up.

Insurance companies are able to refuse coverage to people that they deem too risky. (i. e. you have a "pre-existing condition") People with known medical problems are often excluded because the companies know they will have to spend more money on these people. They may also come back after you have been diagnosed with an illness and drop you because the illness might have existed before your coverage with them started.

If people do not have insurance and cannot afford to pay they will go to public hospitals to be treated. Public hospitals HAVE to treat you whether you pay or not, and if you don't pay they write off the charges causing prices to increase further. And these public hospitals are funded by taxes so if you pay taxes and you think you aren't already paying for uninsured people and illegal immigrants healthcare you 're living in a dream world.

I think they need to pass a bill that includes a public option (if for anythign else to track that stuff) require insurance company regulation and reform to get rid of their ability to arbitrarily choose who they will or will not cover, adopt a salary system for doctors who work in hospitals, and insurance cards which contain your medical history to eliminate redundant testing.

If I have to pay a little more in taxes to achieve this, so be it. I do believe changing some of the practices I spoke about will end up lowering overall costs, but if I can help people less fortunate than myself, I'm happy to do it.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Anarky

and they're apparently still afraid of communism,

So true. It's illegal to own a red flag in some states.

[Canadian Turtle]

Hahaha wow... there are some long posts.

I want to make a few quick points and hopes that they are short enough for people to read them, because I think it is important for you to hear them... I hope that doesn't come off wrong, but I have a different point of view than most of you.

The fact that no health care is free, is more of less true yes, I pay for it with taxes. I also pay for roads, cops, fire, and other important things with taxes.

Here is the deal with that. I am 23, I live on my own I pay no income tax, I get it all back, because I don't make a hell of a lot in a year. We don't have much more sales tax than anyone else. So here I am, I have little to no extra taxation burden on me... if I break my arm, sprain my ankle, have a stuffy nose, or am about to die from blood loss, I can go any time any where for what ever I want to, to a hospital and I will get taken care of as needed. That beats paying 300 plus a month for health insurance with a stupid high deductible.

I am not saying the system is perfect here either. The debate about making it partially paid for, such as those who can afford it have to pay a little has been going on for a while up here. Making the rich pay more in taxes and or health care ACTUALLY makes sense in a stable economy. This however is a different argument, because the system of pushing the poor man down while the rich man gets richer is the system in place now and guess what... IT DOSN'T WORK!

Last note. Someone mentioned the idea of people caring for one another. As much as some of you may or may not like Mr. Moore the Documentary guy, he said something very interesting at a movie opening up here once. He pointed out that it is part of every Canadians being, that we are all in this together. If my taxes go to help someone who needs help and not in some rich insurance company pocket, GREAT! I want to help the other guy, because guess what! He is going to help me when I need it. This actually is something at the core of us which makes us different in day to day life. I am sorry, but it does. I can't really explain it fully or do it justice here on this post late at night, but maybe it can help some of you to look at it another way. But that's just the way it has always been up here.

Change is scary, but change is good!!