Why isn't Kevin as opposed to Fred Wolf characters like Peter is?

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

I must have missed where Krang himself (not General Krang, a possible human character) is going to be in IDW.. where was this confirmed?

Krang (as in, the evil brain) obviously is General Krang. The human body appears to be a robot.

Think of General Krang as a more realistic and less cheesy version of his android body from the old toon.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by King Suck

When Peter sold the property I was really pissed at him. After reading his explanation where he discussed his mental health not so much.

+ 1 on this as well.. I now feel guilty for taking it out on the guy, considering how tough handling a multi million dollar operation must have been. Not one of my prouder moments... But it's like the 5 stages of death...regret, acceptance etc ;o)..

[Venom]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Krang (as in, the evil brain) obviously is General Krang. The human body appears to be a robot.

Think of General Krang as a more realistic and less cheesy version of his android body from the old toon.

Also, let us not forget that this series is melding various aspects from all versions; that being said, for those not too familiar with Mirage's earlier TMNT comics, the Utroms had human skin suits covering their robotic bodies.

Think Terminator piloted by a little squishy alien in the belly.

[CyberCubed]

I guess its true what they say, remove Peter Laird from the equation and all of a sudden all the old toon characters are making their return to the franchise after over a decade of hiatus.

I bet when they told Kevin they wanted to bring back Krang/Bebop/Rocksteady, he probably said, "Sure, go ahead!" or something along those lines. Kevin Eastman doesn't mind the old toon stuff, so I think that says a lot.

[ssjup81]

Personally, I like the fact that Kevin is so lax about the whole OT thing. I loved the OT series, but I also have an appreciation for the source material as well as other people I'm sure. I like the original Turtles comics, I just wish I would've read them earlier, but I was young when the OT series started, so no surprise there. Either way, seems that Kevin realizes this, but Peter doesn't or just refuses to. We can like more than one medium of the franchise.

Also, thinking about it, I wonder if the show would've started in maybe the early 90s as opposed to the late 80s, if it would've been more action-like from the get-go (like the Red Sky eps), like say shows like Spiderman, Batman: The Animated Series, Superman: The Animated Series, etc.

[Mindy]

Kevin seems more open to new, and past, ideas. His personality is better suited for the spotlight. I see Laird being a fantastic novelist. I haven't checked out his blog lately.

[pannoni1]

PL is more of a "I don't want this to be a total sellout, devoid of it's original meaning". However, he DID approve with Kevin back then of the Fred Wolf characters, so he had to have some laxness in order for it to succeed (of course this was before it was a cash cow). And of course Ryan and his crew met Kevin with the OT voice actors in 2009, with a picture of him with the cast proof of this. I also feel Kevin is more open to public opinion, meaning he would be more willing to accept what fans want. However, Peter of course created his own 4kids exclusive characters. Honestly, it was too soon in 2003 to have ALL the OT characters return as it would just seem like a rehash of the Fred Wolf series rather than creating a new one that feels distinct with just an occassional shout-out to various fans, such as in the episode Secret Origins. But it's been 15 years since we've had the Technodrome and Krang, and Turtles Forever marked Bebop & Rocksteady's first appearance in 15 years, which is a long enough time to build the nostalgia factor to woo the original fans.

[CyberCubed]

It really makes you wonder though how different the 4kids series would be if Kevin was the one in charge instead of PL.

With Ch'rell being in the series, I don't think they would have used Krang. Two alien brains who were exiled from their homeworld and are warlords from another galaxy? Might be too much for one show.

Then again if they had planned to use Krang, then maybe Shredder would have stayed human from the start.

I think the 4kids writers really did want to use some old toon characters like Slash.

[Konchadunga]

I must say, for all his apparent lack of social skills and disdain for a show that I loved, I feel sorry for Laird. Based on his statements and what's been obvious from the get-go, he's had an uphill battle for a long time. Apparently when he first authorized the deal with Fred Wolf, his background as an independent writer and artist hadn't given him a good grasp of how big business worked, so he probably figured he was doing what he needed to do to save the comic, and he may even have been right. Still, after the show began, the comic's Letters section was apparently filled with hate mail from fans calling them sellouts--as though Eastman and Laird were making anyone watch the cartoon or watering down the comic itself.

I also think maybe Peter Laird didn't hate the show initially, as the early episodes, though obviously altered for kids, still had action and adventure elements. However, once the franchise's new merchandise-driven direction just kept it going for quantity rather than quality, he probably felt the need to put the genie back in the bottle. By the time garbage like the "Coming Out of Their Shells" Tour and The Next Mutation was being made, it seemed like the fan enthusiasm for what the franchise had become was waning. Laird probably felt it was his duty to rein in the franchise and restore dignity to it. I don't blame him for that.

But then, when he tried to do a new cartoon with better adaptations, better action, and quality control, what was among the biggest reactions he got? More hateful backlash, because he wasn't being faithful to what they saw as the original. The show was eventually quite a success, objectively speaking much better than the original cartoon, and I liked it better (at least for the first few seasons), but a lot of people shunned it just because it wasn't nostalgic.

So Peter Laird certainly has a lot of reasons to be pissed off, and I can see why he resolved to just sell off the series. I loved the original show in spite of what Laird thought of it, and loved the 2003 show in spite of what many old fans thought, but at this point it shouldn't be about what any one person thinks. A pragmatic compromise is the best solution now that mainstream fandom has been broken into rival factions. To Laird's credit, in his blog about why he sold the franchise, he mentioned that although he prefers the more accurate 2003 series, he's aware that many fans prefer the 1987 series, so stop worrying about the Nickelodeon series because no matter how it measures up to prior incarnations, it will have it's own unique charm, gain the franchise new fans, and guarantee it's continued existence. It may have taken a long time, but it seems he finally got that his own ideas aren't the be-all and end-all of the series.

[CyberCubed]

Peter Laird had a lot on his plate in the 2000's:

- He wrote every issue of Volume 4

- He had to approve all scripts for Tales before they went into production for over 70 issues.

- He had to approve EVERY episode script for the 4kids series. As you can see on his blog, he picked apart every single detail and line of dialogue until they got it right. This show ran for 157 episodes, so he definitely worked hard.

- He worked with Imagi on the 2007 movie.

- He approves/disapproved Playmates toy ideas and videogame piches


So yeah...to say the guy didn't work hard is an understatement, he truly had passion for the franchise and Mirage/4kids in 2001-2009 was only as good because of him.

[Konchadunga]

No doubt about that, although there are certain episode scripts that I wish he rejected wholesale...

[Hermano Dyvas]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I guess its true what they say, remove Peter Laird from the equation and all of a sudden all the old toon characters are making their return to the franchise after over a decade of hiatus.

I bet when they told Kevin they wanted to bring back Krang/Bebop/Rocksteady, he probably said, "Sure, go ahead!" or something along those lines. Kevin Eastman doesn't mind the old toon stuff, so I think that says a lot.

Yeah, no disrepect to Laird, but in a way he was holding back his own franchise. Of course it was his property and he had every right to do so if he wanted to. I'm just not too upset about him not making the key decisions anymore (he did a good job on 2K3 though).

I'm a bigger fan of Eastman's style then Laird's although I will say both were at their best when put together.

[Donnie]

Originally Posted by Hermano Dyvas

Yeah, no disrepect to Laird, but in a way he was holding back his own franchise. Of course it was his property and he had every right to do so if he wanted to. I'm just not too upset about him not making the key decisions anymore (he did a good job on 2K3 though).

I'm a bigger fan of Eastman's style then Laird's although I will say both were at their best when put together.

Not singling you out Hermano, but generally speaking I think to say that Laird holding back his own franchise at all is a misleading and mostly incorrect statement. He did so much for TMNT in the 2000s. Without his tremendous effort in the 2k3 show we may have received a terrible rehash of the OT which may have plunged the Turtles into the silliest time period we've ever seen them manifested in Nick. Laird's darker 2k3 show hopefully stopped that goofy possibility in its tracks, because the 2k3 gave the TMNT fresh breathe to a new audience. I think when the Nick show comes out, we'll see that it took some pointers from the 2k3. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

On the whole though, I can't see why anybody would dislike Laird's treatment with the TMNT. I can see initial feelings of despair toward him when he sold the rights (I was guilty of that, but got over it) but his mature direction is what kept the Turtles alive, in my opinion. His determination to not include the cheesy characters from the OT in Volume 4 and in the 2k3 was a blessing, at least for me.

Concerning the whole Eastman vs. Laird thing, like you said Hermano they worked best when they were together. Two great minds are always better than one. However, and most here like this about Eastman, in my opinion Eastman can be (not always) way too nonchalant and laid back about his characters. Laird at least had a checks and balances system firmly in place.

[AcidBurn30]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

PL has made his dislike for most of the Fred Wolf characters many, many times. He of course prevented the 4kids writers from using them in the cartoon, and would not allow any of them to appear in the Mirage comics either. (although Krang/Bebop/Rocksteady got a brief cameo in one of the Cowboys of Moo Mesa issues...)

Kevin Eastman on the other hand actually seems open to the idea of old Fred Wolf characters. He's never shown any real obvious disdain for the cartoons (as far as I know), and he even approved of a female turtle, something Peter would never do.

Likewise now that we know Krang is appearing in the IDW series, which Kevin is co-writing, you really have to wonder. Why doesn't Kevin Eastman oppose the old mutant characters or Fred Wolf characters like PL does?

Kevin didn't want to do the Venus turtle, but Fox lady wanted a female turtle for the female fans who want to watch it.. He just did, but he didn't really care much for it as well as Peter. So they had to do this for the show because the lady from Fox wants this...which she should never have any powers do make a idea or a thought on anything lol...

[Hermano Dyvas]

Originally Posted by Donnie

Not singling you out Hermano, but generally speaking I think to say that Laird holding back his own franchise at all is a misleading and mostly incorrect statement. He did so much for TMNT in the 2000s. Without his tremendous effort in the 2k3 show we may have received a terrible rehash of the OT which may have plunged the Turtles into the silliest time period we've ever seen them manifested in Nick. Laird's darker 2k3 show hopefully stopped that goofy possibility in its tracks, because the 2k3 gave the TMNT fresh breathe to a new audience. I think when the Nick show comes out, we'll see that it took some pointers from the 2k3. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

Oh, I agree he has done more then a wonderful job on 2K3, if you take away the nostalgia element it's a lot better then the OT! The nicktoon will have to pull of some serious stunts to beat it and I'm not so sure it can.

Originally Posted by Donnie

On the whole though, I can't see why anybody would dislike Laird's treatment with the TMNT. I can see initial feelings of despair toward him when he sold the rights (I was guilty of that, but got over it) but his mature direction is what kept the Turtles alive, in my opinion. His determination to not include the cheesy characters from the OT in Volume 4 and in the 2k3 was a blessing, at least for me.

When I say things like Laird is holding his own franchise back I think of examples like the 2007 movie, while it's not really a bad movie it's nothing that stands out, it just sort of passed by almost unnoticed by the general audience. I really think it would have caught a lot more attention if it had more elements from the OT. Notably, the technodrome, Krang, Bebop & Rocksteady and of course Shredder!

They could've given the movie a darker tone then the Fred Wolf universe, that way they could have showed a darker version of the tmnt to the audience with elements they are familiar with.

From that foundation they could've worked on changing the general opinion "TMNT is for kids". Sort of like "Batman begins" did for Batman.

Originally Posted by Donnie

Concerning the whole Eastman vs. Laird thing, like you said Hermano they worked best when they were together. Two great minds are always better than one. However, and most here like this about Eastman, in my opinion Eastman can be (not always) way too nonchalant and laid back about his characters. Laird at least had a checks and balances system firmly in place.

True true, but then Laird's con is his storytelling can get a bit slow (v4) or too over the top with the sci-fi. Eastman is kind of the opposite. I guess that's why they work together so well.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Hermano Dyvas

Oh, I agree he has done more then a wonderful job on 2K3, if you take away the nostalgia element it's a lot better then the OT! The nicktoon will have to pull of some serious stunts to beat it and I'm not so sure it can.



When I say things like Laird is holding his own franchise back I think of examples like the 2007 movie, while it's not really a bad movie it's nothing that stands out, it just sort of passed by almost unnoticed by the general audience. I really think it would have caught a lot more attention if it had more elements from the OT. Notably, the technodrome, Krang, Bebop & Rocksteady and of course Shredder!

I agree. Peter Laird managed to create a show that went above and beyond filling the shoes of the classic one (although I also feel more lax censorship had a fair amount to do with it), but he never had the zest for making it a vast multimedia franchise, the way they did with the old show. I feel the toys and video games based on the OT are also better than the OT itself in some respects. The toys had a very thorough and artistic direction while the show had extremely flawed animation, and did more justice to some of the Mirage characters than the actual show did--Fugitoid and Panda Khan actually got toys made of them despite not appearing in the show. The video games did justice to the Turtles' reputations as tough warriors in a way the show rarely did, and the Tournament Fighter games were many people's first introduction to Karai, at a time when tough female characters were rare in the mainstream franchise. Then there's the movies, which, though more based on the comics than the OT, worked enough elements from it in to introduce iconic comic storylines and good action scenes to the masses.

Peter Laird vastly improved the core of the franchise but he didn't do as well on the fringes. The new show was likeable because even though it didn't use characters from the old one, it had a rich supporting cast of its own, but a large portion of that supporting cast didn't leave the show in many capacities. I attribute Mutant Melee's lack of a good roster to its early release (though I could be wrong about that), but there's no excuse at all for Smash Up's even worse roster. There's a rumor that Peter Laird blocked the inclusion of characters from the OT in that game, but that rumor seems kind of ungrounded when you remember that there were still plenty characters from the comics and the new show that could have been there instead, and weren't. I think that game's flaws were just Ubisoft being lazy, but you'd think that Laird could have put them back in line in delivering on their promises; considering how much control he had over the franchise as a whole. The lack of nostalgic elements in many of the other games also made their dated design a lot more apparent, and the fact that music and images were changed in the unlockable versions of the old games also reinforced the impression that there was a cultural revolution being launched against the OT. Again, those were probably just Konami's fault, but you'd think Laird could have intervened. The new Playmates toys also had some hicups in quality, although some of them were quite good. Finally, the 2007 movie had few of the larger-than-life qualities of the new show; lacking the involvement of many interesting characters and feeling too detached from continuity. It was the movie introduction of Karai, but I don't see why she actually had to be there, and while the past movies didn't have a broad scope or lots of characters either, they were adaptations of comic storylines so they had an excuse, sequels are supposed to be bigger than their predecessors, and simply calling the 2007 movie Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with no subtitle created expectations it couldn't meet.

I think Laird's problem is that he's just too idealistic. His grand vision may have been good, but he doesn't seem to understand marketing well; you need to be able to compromise to make a grand vision appeal on a broad level. His staunch opposition to including so many iconic features the franchise had in its heyday not only didn't help the new series gain the respect that the old one had; I think it actually hurt his effort by gaining it a stigma that made old fans steer clear of it. Despite its different tone, I am quite certain more fans would go for it if only it included, say, a few characters original to the OT. My brother was a hardcore TMNT fan in its glory days, and I'm sure he doesn't know who Karai, Bishop, Renet, or the Utroms are, which is a shame considering they were good characters. Think of how many people like him would have learned of them had they just been courted over by the new show throwing some bones to them. That's why the first two movies worked so well, and why the new show didn't.