Splinter's human origin is now used in more incarnations than his rat origin - Page 2

*Jephael* · 10-07-2012, 04:24 PM

This thread just reminded me of the first time I saw the original movie. Right after Raphael's initial meetup with Casey we see him go home and get lectured by Splinter about his temper. The very moment Splinter said "My Master Yoshi's first rule..." I was all like "Wait a minute. Hamato Yoshi had a Master Yoshi?!"

*CyberCubed* · 10-07-2012, 10:16 PM

The rat origin gives Splinter a revenge motive to kill Shredder for killing his master.

The human origin makes Splinter and Shredder rivals, but this way its more personal.

*Allio* · 10-07-2012, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

First of all, Image is part of Mirage continuity so it doesn't count as a new version of Splinter.

Second of all, Dreamwave never went on long enough to be its own universe. It had 4 episode adaptions and two filler stories that could easily fit into the 4kids universe in Season 1.

Third of all, Movie 4 and Next Mutation were loose continuations of the Movie universe so they are not new Splinters either.

So I don't know why people need to make this more complicated than it has to be.

The Image series is just like the archie series

sure it has similar beginnings (one being the mirage beginning, the other adapting the first few episodes) but it ended up being it's own story

so you either count Image a serperate series or count Archie series as an untold side of the fred wolf

simple as that

the same thing is said about Next Mutation, Shredder is alive, so it is not in continuity from the movies... The Next Mutation universe may branch off from the movie universe, but it is still it's own universe... it's just like the Multi-verse of Digimon, how Adveture branches off from one of the manga, since Taichi is loosely based on Kentarou, but yet it's its own story

And IDW shouldn't be counted as either

One, he is not "technically Hamato Yoshi" instead it is his soul... That is why the Triangle is: Heart, Body, and Soul. 2. His body is physically a rat, a mutated rat, not a mutated human... no trace of human dna in him, but he is 100% a rat

so as of now, only four universes have Splinter as a human

Fred Wolf
Nick
Archie and Anime (Which both Branches off from the Fred Wolf cartoon)

*CyberCubed* · 10-07-2012, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allio

The Image series is just like the archie series

sure it has similar beginnings (one being the mirage beginning, the other adapting the first few episodes) but it ended up being it's own story

so you either count Image a serperate series or count Archie series as an untold side of the fred wolf

Is this a joke? When Image started it was written as a direct sequel to Volume 2, with both Kevin and Peter approving of it. It was a direct continuation of the Mirage universe and why there is no "Mirage Volume 3."

Only after did PL decide he wanted Vol. 4 to start off fresh with no mutilations. And then we got the Image conclusion anyway.

Quote:

the same thing is said about Next Mutation, Shredder is alive, so it is not in continuity from the movies... The Next Mutation universe may branch off from the movie universe, but it is still it's own universe... it's just like the Multi-verse of Digimon, how Adveture branches off from one of the manga, since Taichi is loosely based on Kentarou, but yet it's its own story

Next Mutation is crap, so nobody cares anyway

*Allio* · 10-07-2012, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Is this a joke? When Image started it was written as a direct sequel to Volume 2, with both Kevin and Peter approving of it. It was a direct continuation of the Mirage universe and why there is no "Mirage Volume 3."

Only after did PL decide he wanted Vol. 4 to start off fresh with no mutilations. And then we got the Image conclusion anyway.

Remeber, when they said that it was a sequel, there was no plans at the time for Volume four to come out...

and since Volume four pretty much re-conned everthing volume 3 started, it made the whole story as if it never happened...

again... It BRANCHED off into it's own universe... be it intentional or not at the time, that is the out come as of now

"A Multiverse or multi-verse is an infinite number of universes in which all possible events occur."

and that is all there is to it

This is the same arguement of "Same as it never was" sure it was a possible future in the beginning, but now, it's in it's own universe (Turtles Forever)

And TMNT is in it's own universe now, even though it was suppose to be canon to the past three movies, thanks to Turtles Forever

despite what one may think... Canon means more than Fanons and Head-canons... if you think anyother way, people will just laugh at your stupidity

*CyberCubed* · 10-07-2012, 11:12 PM

Vol. 4 didn't retcon Image though. It took place a few years after Image ended in the timeline. Nothing that happened in Image contradicts Vol. 4 or vice versa.

*Allio* · 10-07-2012, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Vol. 4 didn't retcon Image though. It took place a few years after Image ended in the timeline. Nothing that happened in Image contradicts Vol. 4 or vice versa.

wasn't that Image ended on a cliff hanger? so it has the ending of Samurai Jack, where Jack is forever stuck in the future and Akuu rules everything

That was the reason why that fan comic was made before to give it closure

*CyberCubed* · 10-07-2012, 11:48 PM

It ended on an open note. The last issue was a decent ender for years. The conclusion explained how they healed and tied up a few loose ends with the Foot.

Azrael Macool · 10-08-2012, 02:34 AM

The Image series is arguable. The last 2 issues do tie it back in to volume 4, but since they're not strictly official, technically speaking it ended on a cliffhanger that just plain doesn't jive with volume 4. But most people do accept the last 2 issues as official, so... There we are.

**Jester** · 10-08-2012, 02:52 AM

I agree that IDW is, like with almost everything it does, an amalgamation of both Splinter origins.

erfolgsdiplomat · 10-08-2012, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zulithe

i think having smart animals from the get-go makes their mutation less special, so no, I will never like the idea of splinter practicing his master's moves from his cage. i respect that others like it, and since it is the mirage origin it has very deep roots in the series and i can't dismiss it. if every version of the origin used that depiction, i would be perfectly fine with it, but since we have all these divergences in the story, i prefer the human version.

i agree. the rat in the cage gaining so many skills that he eventually even becomes able to train students always seemed weird to me and made only really sense in the original logic of the ot, the tmnt being just a one shot comic parody of classic superhero comics. because there any crazyness is awesome. but as the mirage series became a longer comic with history this always seemed to be a bit too goofy for me.
also, why should splinter love his dead owner so strongly that he feels urge for revenge? when his owner was actually the one who held him for years inside a cage?
splinter being originally hamato yoshi made more sense to me. i found it weird in the ot series that he would chose to live in the sewers of new york though. so the new nick version deals that a bit better. i just dislike that one mutants now to what was the last surrounding. it felt more right when it had to do with what one had to deal with the most time of life (yoshi living in harmony with rats for years). but at least it makes sense for splinter to hide in the sewers after being transformed into a monstrous creature. i think it is strange though that he didn't begin to have interest himself into fighting the kraang after the turtles find their mutagen. where's his initiative? why is he just staying at home?
so to me the nick version has the most potential, but i fear that a cartooney show will always handle big story arcs in a more dull way than the mirage comic would have.

i don't come along well with the idw reincarnaton concept. it doesn't work for me at all

erfolgsdiplomat · 10-08-2012, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Vol. 4 didn't retcon Image though. It took place a few years after Image ended in the timeline. Nothing that happened in Image contradicts Vol. 4 or vice versa.

erm, just looking at leonardo's right hand, the foot clan's organization or raphael's eye... i always understood that in peter laird's sense image was dismissed. some fans made a (pretty good) fan fiction that can fill the gaps. but i would not accept this as a canon. just a great "what if".

s**t, i wished laird would finally start to finish volume 4 instead of doing whatever he does now. he got me hyped too much to let me down now

*Original TMNT Cartoon Fan* · 10-08-2012, 05:45 AM

Some characters (Leatherhead, Mondo Gecko) have different origins in Archie and the 1987 show, so it's not the same universe.

If it was knewn already from the start how Archie would become, they would probably use a new origin story.

*Slade* · 10-08-2012, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allio

And IDW shouldn't be counted as either

One, he is not "technically Hamato Yoshi" instead it is his soul...

For some people, the soul is what makes you human.

*CyberCubed* · 10-08-2012, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erfolgsdiplomat

erm, just looking at leonardo's right hand, the foot clan's organization or raphael's eye... i always understood that in peter laird's sense image was dismissed. some fans made a (pretty good) fan fiction that can fill the gaps. but i would not accept this as a canon. just a great "what if".

s**t, i wished laird would finally start to finish volume 4 instead of doing whatever he does now. he got me hyped too much to let me down now

The conclusion came from storylines directly from the main writers of the Image series.

Vivi · 10-08-2012, 08:33 AM

The human to rat mutation makes more sense logically. However, I like the fact that there is no human form/equivalent.

Splinter as a rat transformed to human, is his own person - completely separate to Hamato Yoshi (even though he does adopt many of his qualities). Human to rat transformation IS Yoshi.

By eliminating the rat to human mythos, you have effectively removed a character - THE Splinter.

BlueLightning · 10-08-2012, 01:21 PM

Just my two cents.

As I was growing up, my very first interaction with the TMNT was the first live action movie. It was engraved in my mind and remains my favorite incarnation of the Turtles. And the themes of family resounded a lot more in that film than in the OT. Splinter seemed more like a boss than a father in the OT, at least from what I saw. Perhaps someone could enlighten me about the subject. However, seeing Splinter being first as Hamato Yoshi has always seemed off to me, even though I loved the OT. So, even though it doesn't make much sense, I prefer it that way. (I justify my mind saying that Splinter was a very special rat)

However, even though it goes against my beliefs, I kinda dig the approach the new comics took on the matter.

*Allio* · 10-08-2012, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raph_tha_Dude

For some people, the soul is what makes you human.

oh I understand this... but more I was going on the physical body side of things, not the soul thing

...

as for which version of Splinter, I prefer the rat, Why? It's classic.

now on to how a rat knows martial arts...

I always pictured it that it was Splinter just watching Yoshi doing those moves, not mimicking them

Then as he mutated into a rat, and thought of how to keep him and the turtles safe, he recalled upon what he remembered. To fill in the gap of what Splinter doesn't know of Ninjutsu, he used animal instinct to make up for what he doesn't know (such as turning Fight to Flight to stay in the shadows or defend oneself). This would also explain the turtle's "brawling" like style from the first issue of the comics

but that is just how I see it

*BubblyShell22* · 10-08-2012, 03:30 PM

Either incarnation works, but I like how they're handling it in the new cartoon because it gives Splinter more depth as a character, and that's something I really like.

Bossa Nova · 10-08-2012, 04:58 PM

My very first introduction to Splinter and the Turtles was through the first movie, so it's pretty much impossible for me to shake from my head the origin storyline that was presented there. I greatly prefer Splinter as being mutated from an actual pet rat, and as I didn't take to the show growing up and simply watched the movies over and over again, I was pretty weirded out when I first learned he was actually mutated from Yoshi. Even now that I've grown used to the idea, it still bothers me, mostly because I feel like it severs that bond Splinter has with the Turtles as a family. As a human (especially one with another family), I have a difficult time seeing how he could really come to love the Turtles as his true sons as opposed to pets or pupils. But as a rat who found four helpless baby turtles, it just makes more sense to me that he would have a genuine sense of fatherly protectiveness over them that only grew as they all aged.

10-07-2012, 04:24 PM	#21
Jephael That whack job behind you Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Carlisle, Pennsylvania Posts: 8,143	This thread just reminded me of the first time I saw the original movie. Right after Raphael's initial meetup with Casey we see him go home and get lectured by Splinter about his temper. The very moment Splinter said "My Master Yoshi's first rule..." I was all like "Wait a minute. Hamato Yoshi had a Master Yoshi?!" __________________ "I like it. Simple, but effective!" Raphael; The Mean Machines - 1988

10-08-2012, 02:52 AM	#30
Jester Rat-faced Dude-guy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 26,298	I agree that IDW is, like with almost everything it does, an amalgamation of both Splinter origins. __________________ "Clearly, you're Ninja Turtling incorrectly." - Leo656

10-08-2012, 05:45 AM	#33
Original TMNT Cartoon Fan Overlord Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 10,480	Archie Some characters (Leatherhead, Mondo Gecko) have different origins in Archie and the 1987 show, so it's not the same universe. If it was knewn already from the start how Archie would become, they would probably use a new origin story.

10-08-2012, 01:21 PM	#37
BlueLightning Random Punk Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Ciudad Juarez Chihuahua, Mexico Posts: 49	Just my two cents. As I was growing up, my very first interaction with the TMNT was the first live action movie. It was engraved in my mind and remains my favorite incarnation of the Turtles. And the themes of family resounded a lot more in that film than in the OT. Splinter seemed more like a boss than a father in the OT, at least from what I saw. Perhaps someone could enlighten me about the subject. However, seeing Splinter being first as Hamato Yoshi has always seemed off to me, even though I loved the OT. So, even though it doesn't make much sense, I prefer it that way. (I justify my mind saying that Splinter was a very special rat) However, even though it goes against my beliefs, I kinda dig the approach the new comics took on the matter. __________________ "All fathers care for their sons"

10-08-2012, 03:30 PM	#39
BubblyShell22 Leo-holic Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 16,912	Either incarnation works, but I like how they're handling it in the new cartoon because it gives Splinter more depth as a character, and that's something I really like. __________________ "A warrior who never fails, never learns."-The Ancient One. "Embrace your inner a**holiness."-Mr. Anderson.

10-07-2012, 10:16 PM	#22
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,838	The rat origin gives Splinter a revenge motive to kill Shredder for killing his master. The human origin makes Splinter and Shredder rivals, but this way its more personal.

10-07-2012, 11:12 PM	#26
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,838	Vol. 4 didn't retcon Image though. It took place a few years after Image ended in the timeline. Nothing that happened in Image contradicts Vol. 4 or vice versa.

10-07-2012, 11:48 PM	#28
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,838	It ended on an open note. The last issue was a decent ender for years. The conclusion explained how they healed and tied up a few loose ends with the Foot.

10-08-2012, 02:34 AM	#29
Azrael Macool Random Punk Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 47	The Image series is arguable. The last 2 issues do tie it back in to volume 4, but since they're not strictly official, technically speaking it ended on a cliffhanger that just plain doesn't jive with volume 4. But most people do accept the last 2 issues as official, so... There we are.

10-08-2012, 08:33 AM	#36
Vivi Mad Scientist Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Ninja HQ, Moon Posts: 1,076	The human to rat mutation makes more sense logically. However, I like the fact that there is no human form/equivalent. Splinter as a rat transformed to human, is his own person - completely separate to Hamato Yoshi (even though he does adopt many of his qualities). Human to rat transformation IS Yoshi. By eliminating the rat to human mythos, you have effectively removed a character - THE Splinter.

10-08-2012, 04:58 PM	#40
Bossa Nova Stone Warrior Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: United States, California Posts: 592	My very first introduction to Splinter and the Turtles was through the first movie, so it's pretty much impossible for me to shake from my head the origin storyline that was presented there. I greatly prefer Splinter as being mutated from an actual pet rat, and as I didn't take to the show growing up and simply watched the movies over and over again, I was pretty weirded out when I first learned he was actually mutated from Yoshi. Even now that I've grown used to the idea, it still bothers me, mostly because I feel like it severs that bond Splinter has with the Turtles as a family. As a human (especially one with another family), I have a difficult time seeing how he could really come to love the Turtles as his true sons as opposed to pets or pupils. But as a rat who found four helpless baby turtles, it just makes more sense to me that he would have a genuine sense of fatherly protectiveness over them that only grew as they all aged.