Official Ep discussion #10 "Panic in the Sewers"

[Cure]

Originally Posted by Rooish

I just can't let it slide

Haha, alright. Get right on that, champ.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Bossa Nova

Examples? I can maaaybe see the "Splinter was taking it too far' argument, but Raph too? Maybe me and my sisters are just wicked abusive to each other or something, but Raph doesn't beat up on his brothers any worse than what you'll find at my house on the average night.

Indeed. That and Splinter in essence apologized for being so on edge and pushing the Turtles too far. As for Raph, he's mellower than the 4kids Raph, did you think him too abusive as well.

[Avatar Yuffie]

As for Splinter being terrifying in that episode, the show did point out that Splinter apparently had a terrible temper (its what caused the rift between him and Shredder to worsen), so it's actually interesting to see that dark side in him show up.

I was actually sympathetic because that dream sequence at the start of the episode was horrifying, and Splinter unfortunately had to let it out on the boys.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Bossa Nova

Examples? I can maaaybe see the "Splinter was taking it too far' argument, but Raph too? Maybe me and my sisters are just wicked abusive to each other or something, but Raph doesn't beat up on his brothers any worse than what you'll find at my house on the average night.

Splinter and Raph are often whacking the others for saying things they disapprove of, and it just seems pretty violent to me, and disproportionate and escalating. I especially hate it when Raph hits Don--neither he nor Mikey fight back.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Splinter and Raph are often whacking the others for saying things they disapprove of, and it just seems pretty violent to me, and disproportionate and escalating. I especially hate it when Raph hits Don--neither he nor Mikey fight back.

Yep, because Splinter and Raph never whacked anyone in any of the previous incarnations.

Again, did you disapprove of the 4Kids Splinter and Raph as well?

[Rooish]

I never liked it, but it seems to be taken to an excess in this show. I always hated how Raph hit Mikey in 4kids, but he seemed less alpha-dominant in that show, at least compared to Don. In this show I really get the impression Don and Mikey don't want to fight back because they'd get their asses handed to them. I find it disturbing that there would be fear like this in a family in a kids' show. It happens a lot in this show! As in, a couple times an episode. It's really annoying and teaches bad lessons--in Splinter's case, about disciplining, and in Raph's case, about dealing with people who say annoying things.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Also, Splinter took the role Leo did in season 4 in 2K3 (and fortunately Splinter backed off and apologized for his behavior at the end).

Which is clever.

Leo was surprisingly mature during the whole time, which is why I really like this episode. He had to put up with the stress his father and his brothers are in for weeks.

[Rooish]

In defense of the show's badass-ness though, I like that the word "dead" was used a few times in this episode... 4kids always said "perished" or "slay" or whatever.

[The Stryker]

Originally Posted by Rooish

I never liked it, but it seems to be taken to an excess in this show. I always hated how Raph hit Mikey in 4kids, but he seemed less alpha-dominant in that show, at least compared to Don. In this show I really get the impression Don and Mikey don't want to fight back because they'd get their asses handed to them. I find it disturbing that there would be fear like this in a family in a kids' show. It happens a lot in this show! As in, a couple times an episode. It's really annoying and teaches bad lessons--in Splinter's case, about disciplining, and in Raph's case, about dealing with people who say annoying things.

You must not have ever experienced actual siblings interacting and living with eachother. You're overreacting quite a bit, it's not that serious.

Also, should every show be pink and fluffy and cute with no arguments whatsoever to present a good message to kids?

[Rooish]

I do have a brother, we did fight, we stopped under age 10, and when we did my parents would remind us that violence wasn't acceptable between family members. When I got spanked I found it unjust and disproportionate to my behaviour (physical violence is almost always disproportionate vs. words, in my opinion), and it just triggered feelings of rage and vengeance in me as a little kid, instead of actually teaching any valuable lessons about working out problems or even about dealing with idiotic behaviour. Obviously the Turtles can argue all they want but I don't like the bullying. And Splinter... well he's an interesting case because I think his violence would be inexcusable in a father, but it's borderline in a sensei. At any rate, I really wish it didn't have to happen multiple times per episode.

I don't know if I am overreacting... I feel like in 4kids, when Raph would whack Mikey, it was like... brushed off because Raph had less power and Mikey could have fought back better. Here Raph is obviously much more physically powerful and it seems like he has more relational power since he's more of a second-in-command to Leo than he was in 4kids. I acknowledge that Mikey is possibly even dumber in this show than in 4kids though.

It's just really getting to me--it's happening too many times per episode in my mind, without consequence. I know the world isn't all fluffy rainbows or whatever, but it would be nice if people tried to make it a bit more reasonable and fair, especially for younger more malleable minds.

[Jester]

I was about to say, "Well they can't all be Friendship is Magic." but I was sure I'd get a lot of flack.

[Cure]

Originally Posted by Jester

I was about to say, "Well they can't all be Friendship is Magic." but I was sure I'd get a lot of flack.

BOOM, you got them, man.

[The Stryker]

Man. You would have a full on 'Nam flashback if you ever watched a Three Stooges short.

It's just playful ribbing. Raphael isn't ripping Michelangelo and Donatello's psyche's apart.

[Bossa Nova]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Splinter and Raph are often whacking the others for saying things they disapprove of, and it just seems pretty violent to me, and disproportionate and escalating. I especially hate it when Raph hits Don--neither he nor Mikey fight back.

Siblings tend to smack each other around at all ages, and just because a punch or hit looks painful or sounds loud, doesn't mean it actually is. Not that I think we should encourage kids to go around fighting with their brothers and sisters, but honestly, siblings already act that way to begin with, so it's pretty realistic that the Turtles do it too. Besides, I don't really see Raph hitting Don all that much because he's not asking for it as Mikey is, the only times I recall him doing so is when Don actually needs to refocus. And Mikey acts like all younger siblings do-half the time the only reason Raph seems to be beating him up is because Mikey antagonizes him first. All attention is good attention for some kids, doesn't matter if they're getting their ass kicked.

[Rooish]

No, you're right, it doesn't seem to be ripping their psyches apart. But it just seems like not a great dynamic to me.

I am aware that the Turtles are beating people up all the time, but it just seems weird because it's within the family and it's so frequent in this show.

I guess it's the loud slaps or the way the characters like double over when they're hit--just seems a little extreme, you know? Or Splinter getting Raph in that arm-lock and kicking him back at his brothers. I was like... dude that's your father.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Jester

I was about to say, "Well they can't all be Friendship is Magic." but I was sure I'd get a lot of flack.

LOL, yeah I should change my picture to give myself some more credit, but whatever, some people are more sensitive, that's my whole view on things. It shouldn't be their responsibility to be less sensitive, it should be other people's responsibility not to be jerks. Stuff has consequences. Anyway the MLP characters don't typically treat each other that well until the episode moral in the final 20 seconds.

[Bossa Nova]

Sure, I can understand that it's not a great dynamic when you relate it to your own experiences. But you have to take a step back and realize that this dynamic does work for a lot of families, including the Turtles. Not everyone sees through the same lens, and not all siblings see playful shoving as a personal attack. The turtles have no other outlet or friends, it would be pretty impossible to imagine they don't all get sick of each other after awhile.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Bossa Nova

But you have to take a step back and realize that this dynamic does work for a lot of families, including the Turtles. Not everyone sees through the same lens, and not all siblings see playful shoving as a personal attack.

No that is true. I guess we don't have indication that Don or Mike is traumatized by it--but I still don't think they could retaliate if they wanted to.

[The Stryker]

And don't get on the "Think of the children!" train. Most kids aren't going to see Raphael playfully knock Mikey into a pool and say "I SHOULD BULLY PEOPLE WITH VIOLENCE ALL THE TIME." Give them some sort of credit. I think calling kids dumb and insinuating that they need to be taught a lesson all the time would lead to more violence. I know my niece would kick your ass for that.

The kids that would think that would probably just end up doing that sh*t anyway.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by The Stryker

And don't get on the "Think of the children!" train. Most kids aren't going to see Raphael playfully knock Mikey into a pool and say "I SHOULD BULLY PEOPLE WITH VIOLENCE ALL THE TIME." Give them some sort of credit. I think calling kids dumb and insinuating that they need to be taught a lesson all the time would lead to more violence. I know my niece would kick your ass for that.

The kids that would think that would probably just end up doing that sh*t anyway.

It just really doesn't seem especially playful in this show! At times, anyway. Yeah, as a kid I probably wouldn't have interpreted it as I should be violent all the time--I'd just be kind of disturbed about it and what the writers are thinking, like I am now.