Feminist Analyses

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Ooh, gotta call ya out on this one. Some stories cannot be told this way. War flicks, for instance, aren't going to feature many women. And that's as it should be, because of historical accuracy (something that is changing today and is awesome, allow me to add. I hope future war flicks will do so AND be historically accurate to boot. ).

Right, which is fine, but the Turtles aren't in a WWII theater.

But I think we only disagree by a matter of degrees.

[The Big Bad]

You know, I was initially going to huff and puff about how y'all were referencing my blog posts without ever mentioning my name, and maybe thinking that I needed a PR person, because am I really that forgettable?...and then I realized that I'd posted that in my other blog, the one I don't link to in my signature.

Oops. Also, that post needed an editor.

In any case...

Originally Posted by Hannah

I know this might be a longshot, but has anyone written/read any reviews or analyses of the new show from a feminist perspective? I'm writing one right now and would love to hear others' input. I'll probably post it here when I'm done; not sure if any of you are even into that. Would love to discuss here too! I am way fond of April in this show.

We should totally be friends (This goes for you too, Cipher and plastroncafe). I've been wanting to discuss this with people for ages, and I've known that there's some Technodromers who'd be game for it, but haven't had the courage/willpower to just start a topic on it. ^_^!. In addition to the already-linked post, there's also a follow-up post on why Donatello is totally a Nice Guy (TM), and why that is problematic, and then these two, which deal with the issue more tangentially (read the comments, and feel free to comment yourself). And because I am totally not the only one talking about this, there's also this, and the blog Scattered Ramblings, which frequently tackles both feminism and the TMNT, occasionally has posts that tackle them both at the same time, like so.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

No.
It's historically inaccurate to pretend that women had no historical role in war.
Also, anecdotal evidence should not be confused with data. Women have been involved with the computer industry from the get go.

Easy now, don't misunderstand me. Women definitely had a role in war, but their numbers were much smaller. That's history. If you're telling a story from the trenches, there will be no women there. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that it is. And wow, I hope it changes. I'm all for it.

Women are involved in the computer software industry. I was one of them. I worked with many of the largest North American software developers, not just a single company. I don't want to give out too much info here. But I can tell you without a doubt that the industry is crazily male-dominated. That's a fact, not anecdotal. Again, not something I'm thrilled about, but it is changing. Slowly, but it is. And that's awesome! But a movie based on this time, this period would be forcing female characters into roles and that's not accurate.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

But by all means, let's continue building this straw man to prop up the idea that women are only necessary when the plot depends on it. Because...it's not like they're real characters, or have real stories to be told.

Whoa, whoa. Come on, that's totally not what I said. I just don't want to see characters forced into a story, male, female, or whatever. Dude, women are not a part of every story, just like men are not a part of every story. My whole position from the get-go was that I'd like to see more stories told from the POV of women.


Damn. This calls for the cutest turtle pic I have.

Turtle Soup! source: http://yabbles.deviantart.com/art/turtle-soup-84762262

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

We should totally be friends (This goes for you too, Cipher and plastroncafe). I've been wanting to discuss this with people for ages, and I've known that there's some Technodromers who'd be game for it, but haven't had the courage/willpower to just start a topic on it. ^_^!. In addition to the already-linked post, there's also a follow-up post on why Donatello is totally a Nice Guy (TM), and why that is problematic, and then these two, which deal with the issue more tangentially (read the comments, and feel free to comment yourself). And because I am totally not the only one talking about this, there's also this, and the blog Scattered Ramblings, which frequently tackles both feminism and the TMNT, occasionally has posts that tackle them both at the same time, like so.

Word. Agreed with all or most.

IDK about Donatello being a "nice guy" though. At times it borders on problematic and creepy, but the whole improbability of it all (which is obvious to the viewer) and the extent to which it does represent how a lot of childhood crushes work (and they are children) take a lot off it. That, and I really think it's going to blow up in his face or he's going to have to get over it in some way.

Were he actually successful, that would be a huge problem (also an act against whatever god you believe in). And I remember seeing some shows take that route when I was a kid. Actually, I feel like a lot of kids' shows and movies do that -- the unrequited best friend getting the girl with one miraculous feat. That's obviously not in the cards here.

[Dirty Blond]

He's only creepy because he's an ugly mutant turtle. If he had looks, money and status, April would spit on her mother's face to hook up with Donatello.

By the way, where do you think Nice Guy Syndrome comes from? The onus on acceptance or rejection is entirely on the male. The female, no matter her looks, money or status has her pick.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Dirty Blond

He's only creepy because he's an ugly mutant turtle. If he had looks, money and status, April would spit in her mother's face to hook up with Donatello.

Haha, oh sh**.

It's some real old-timey sexism!

[plastroncafe]

Obvious troll is obvious.

[The Big Bad]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Ooh, gotta call ya out on this one. Some stories cannot be told this way. War flicks, for instance, aren't going to feature many women. And that's as it should be, because of historical accuracy[...]

To expand on what plastroncafe has already said, you paint an inaccurate picture. Yes, depending on the war, women may be vastly outnumbered in the front lines, but war is hardly limited to that particular milieu. Women have always been vital in war and have always been affected by war: the reason why that isn't usually acknowledged is because society (specifically, the Patriarchy) has a vested interest in diminishing their contributions and claiming that the only interesting part of war are the parts with violence (see: the amount of "front line" war movies compared with those focusing on those left behind).

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

speaking of which simple question.....is Angel black? or mixed?? cause she looks black....but I could be totally wrong :3 ( I like her purple lip-stick)

Biracial, from the looks of it. Her grandmother is definitively coded as a black person, while her brother has features that read Caucasian.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Right, which is fine, but the Turtles aren't in a WWII theater.

But I think we only disagree by a matter of degrees.

True, true. Maybe not the best example but... well, I guess I just don't want to see PCness in everything. I don't want every show/story to conform to perfect values, I just want more diversity across the board. I want more shows added to the mix, like Powerpuff Girls and Billy & Mandy. I do think the point that [edit: YOU, not pcafe... sorry about that] made about this topic being more important because it's a kid's show is solid, though.

Ordinarily I wouldn't go on in a debate like this, but I must admit that having a young daughter has made me think on this topic quite a bit. Apologies if I've offended anyone. Just thinking out loud here, heh.

[Dirty Blond]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Haha, oh sh**.

It's some real old-timey sexism!

We have a 10/10 male here who thinks it's his personality that attracts women!

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

To expand on what plastroncafe has already said, you paint an inaccurate picture. Yes, depending on the war, women may be vastly outnumbered in the front lines, but war is hardly limited to that particular milieu. Women have always been vital in war and have always been affected by war: the reason why that isn't usually acknowledged is because society (specifically, the Patriarchy) has a vested interest in diminishing their contributions and claiming that the only interesting part of war are the parts with violence (see: the amount of "front line" war movies compared with those focusing on those left behind)

It's not really inaccurate because we're clearing talking about two different things. I never said women didn't have a role... look, I was just trying to point out that some stories revolve around men, some around women. That's not bad, it's just different. And that's okay. What isn't okay is that the majority of stories in our society revolve around men. Let's change that!

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

Biracial, from the looks of it. Her grandmother is definitively coded as a black person, while her brother has features that read Caucasian.

thank you for answering me!! XD I was beginning to think no one saw my question XD I asked because I drew Angel and wasn't sure.....see :3



(I made her younger XD since everyone in TMNT seems young now)

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

True, true. Maybe not the best example but... well, I guess I just don't want to see PCness in everything. I don't want every show/story to conform to perfect values, I just want more diversity across the board.

Oh, I definitely don't want "perfect values." My preferred type of fiction is, like, literary short stories about mostly terrible people. I'm all for subversion.

But again, it's a matter of realism (one or two women or badly stereotyped women does not good fiction make) and, particularly in the case of popular shows aimed at children, I think it's the right thing to do to question how it works as far as providing role models. Because, yeah, that's important.

No condemnation of Turtles. That's just a general statement.

Originally Posted by Dirty Blond

We have a 10/10 male here who thinks it's his personality that attracts women!

I'm flattered. Best compliment I've received all week. Let's date.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Oh, I definitely don't want "perfect values." My preferred type of fiction is, like, literary short stories about mostly terrible people. I'm all for subversion.

But again, it's a matter of realism (one or two women or badly stereotyped women does not good fiction make) and, particularly in the case of popular shows aimed at children, I think it's the right thing to do to question how it works as far as providing role models. Because, yeah, that's important.

No condemnation of Turtles. That's just a general statement.

Gotcha. And yes, good to question. Always good to question.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Still, I admit the complaints are valid. I wish Angel was with the current Purple Dragons, as I see no reason why she shouldn't... other than the Nick writers are afraid showing the Turtles hit women. Which is ridiculous, so I hope not.

And for the sake of wishful thinking she'd be voiced by Whoopi Goldberg.

[CyberCubed]

The Nick writers have a vendetta against the 4kids show. I think Greg Cripes flat out said he didn't even bother to watch the 4kids series when someone asked him about it.

Just be glad Tom Waltz and the IDW crew are more respectful to that series.

[Pterobat]

Yeah, having half the human race, or any other minority group, shouldn't be seen as something that must be "forced" into a story, always be a "token", that needs a "reason" to be there. It should be seen as an organic and neutral part of writing business.

Sadly, we aren't there yet.

I don't view alleged realism even as a reason to exclude characters of a certain type from a certain setting, at least in certain ways. Historical accuracy issues might be a justification, but when it comes to things set in fantasy worlds, or even in the modern day, those rules can be broken, even if they didn't exist for the real-life parallel, i.e. a fictitious medieval society could end up with female warriors by the boatload.

When it comes to swapping a character's race or gender, it doesn't cut the same both ways. Because female and minority characters are rarer, changing characters to be these things goes down easier than making them white dudes.

And yeah, I've got White Baxter as my avatar, currently, but I don't support any whitewashing on principle, including his. Any issues with him could have been resolved by not making him a regular character instead of giving him a racelift, and to my lower brain region, FW Baxter feels fundamentally "fake" to me.

I just...happen to like the character, though for the little it's worth, I think 4Kids Stockman is the best version of him, and whom I like equally.

[BabyTurtles]

4-kid Baxter Stockman scared me when I was younger....

he was okay at first...then Shedder kept messing him up......first it was just his eye...then his legs...then his body!! then he was just a brain!!

I can't be the only person disturbed by that!!?

[Candy Kappa]

Not all characters need to keep their original gender/race/sexual orientation. if their core basis don't need any of them to work, then change away. As long as the character is recognizable and well written. Alan Scott is gay, Jimmy Olsen gender bendered. Or Ripley from Aliens, Ripley was written with no specific gender or race in mind.

Since Casey is now a teenager and will probably not marry April and have an adopted child, taking the Fred Wolf version, what's to say Casey is a dude or Caucasian. As long as you fill the criteria: crazy, hokey mask, vigilante and crazy. That's FW Casey, and the Eastwood impersonation.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

.
Nick Fury from a little comic book called Ultimate Avengers, who was then awesomely played by Sam Jackson.

Ult. Fury got a complete make over though, not just Italian American turned African American but also background story and personality change.

Ult Fury is a complete a**hole and a very unlikeable character (as most of the Ultimate Universe). Luckily he is more 616 personality in the movies.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Then there's Idris Elba as Heimdall

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Not trying to argue, but were those characters more interesting because of the change in race, specifically?

Originally Posted by demonsweat

It's not like Thor is even remotely similar to Norse mythology, so who cares if every character looks like a Nord, it's just fantasy.

As a Norwegian, I do care how the Æsir is portrayed. true that Thor is completely different then his rl counterpart and Sif don't have golden hair. these things still matter to me.

And it is interesting to make the whitest of all Æsir to a black guy, But black people do exist within the Viking world view. referred as Blue Men, the Vikings did travel to Africa among other places as Wineland (America) and Persia.

And I'm sure there are some that might over-think it and see racism in the same vein as the PS4 conference that they had no women on stage so sexism; since all black people are gansta and rappers, and have all gold teeth. Because Heimdall was not only the white one, but he also had golden teeth, hence one of his other names Gullinntanne (Golden teeth).

But I love Idris Elba as Heimdall, making the Bifrost guardian different is interesting. and his skin color really compliments Gold armor and makes him very radiant, hence the "white one". In the end, as long as the character looks good, it's okay. Even if it's a deity in a Superhero movie, I think it's portrayal is important and Elba was a good choice to make Heimdall stand out, and unique, since I think most people would probably have gone opposite and made him look Albino in the skin.

Now, Hogun is not, I repeat not a real Norse god and is a Asian/Mongolian character. he is a Marvel Comics creation.

Originally Posted by Dirty Blond

He's only creepy because he's an ugly mutant turtle.

If he was human, he would have been Ross in season 1 of Friends, minus the childhood crush. But he acts very similar.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

As a Norwegian, I do care how the Æsir is portrayed. true that Thor is completely different then his rl counterpart and Sif don't have golden hair. these things still matter to me.

Fair enough. I never read the comic, but I am somewhat familiar with the mythology. I always understood the comic to be very fantasy-driven so I didn't think it mattered much.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

And it is interesting to make the whitest of all Æsir to a black guy, But black people do exist within the Viking world view. referred as Blue Men, the Vikings did travel to Africa among other places as Wineland (America) and Persia.

And PILLAGED THEM