Feminist Analyses

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Donatello19

Little girls don't care about whether or not there are main female characters. Just because the TMNT are boys means they won't appeal to female audiences? There are TONS of TMNT fan girls out there, just check tumblr and you'll see what I mean. This is like saying Mickey Mouse, Elmo or Spongebob wouldn't appeal to girls because they're boys.

Little girls don't have much of a choice in the matter, due to the fact that female characters are underrepresented. It's better now than it was say, when the old toon started, but there's still a long way to go.

[Donatello19]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

female characters are underrepresented

Spoiler:

[Hannah]

You've done it. You've solved sexism. You proved us all wrong. This thread is no longer relevant because sexism is over.

[plastroncafe]

Underrepresented =/= no representation at all.

[CyberCubed]

The original toon had a lot of female characters when you think about it:

April
Irma
Lotus Blossom
Kala the Neutrino
Tempestra
Shreeka
Mona Lisa
April's Aunt Agatha
Dr. Goodfellow (black doctor from Season 4)
Zack's female friend from, "The Great Boldini"
Tiffiny (Burne's girlfriend)

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by Donatello19

Spoiler:

Huh, must have missed them in 2K3.

[Dirty Blond]

Sexism will truly be over when we treat one another as individuals, not as members of contrived groups. That requires a major paradigm shift. Until that happens, we'll just have to keep going around in circles.

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of living in a matrix.

[Jester]

Can we not just enjoy media for good stories and memorable characters instead of trying to dissect some sort of deeper philosophical or sociological underpinnings?

Does EVERYTHING come back to how everyone but the straight, white, male is a disenfranchised minority?

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

Lets take our two women, April and Karai. One is coded as a good guy, and other other is, for now, coded as a bad guy. One, April, has been so far played as asexual; the other, Karai, has been portrayed as one who is aware of her sexuality and is confident about it--she flirts easily, and she has little problem expressing interest.

Now, female sexuality, despite what conservatives say, is not a bad thing. One can be a good person and still be confident, and flirty, and openly sexual. However, because this version of the TMNT has only two women in it, that message can't really be made properly. As fine as it is for April to be asexual and for Karai to be sexual, a universe in which all good women are asexual and all bad women are sexual, and which therefore conflates female sexuality with morality, is not fine.

your point would be a lot more valid if Karai wasn't a ninja, maybe if we get another female villain that isn't a ninja

[The Big Bad]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

Being love interests doesn't demean nor lessen their worth as female characters. I kinda got over that years ago.
[...]

The point wasn't that there's anything wrong with them being love interest (although the way the arcs are executed is another matter); the point was that until Ms. Campbell, the only way to be a female and be character in the story was by being a love interest, which is a sexist double-standard.

You mean how the Utroms had female models vs Kraang's all male ones?

I'm actually not entirely sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?

Again, animation limitations. It's cheaper for Nick to use one model. Same can be said with the extras (which is probably why the fish vendor/Mitten's owner, that cop who looks like Chris with altered mustache, is painfully reused, because apparently the neighborhood the Turtles in are pretty small). The recent episodes tried to fix that though.

Anyways I'd appreciate it if the complaints about random extras would put out of the table, since it's been already explained why. If we have to compare female characters between previous TMNT shows, use the recurring ones in the first season.

I would, if I believed that the problem were solely about resources. I'm simply not sure that things would be better even if they'd had the resources to make as many extras as they'd wanted--they can still pull what The Dark Knight Rises did. That's just me, though, and it's not the sort of thing one can prove. In any case, I'll be glad to stop holding it against the Nick show; I will not, however, stop using it as a point in the 2k3 show's favor, which is what I was doing.

Originally Posted by Shredded

Feminism is a movement that started back in the sixties and seventies with the explicit purpose of giving men and women equal rights and oppertunities in our society.

What you are actually referring to is what is commonly known as Second-Wave Feminism, called that because in the United States, it followed first wave feminism of the early 20th century, which was mostly centered around the issue of female suffrage.

However, this would not mean that feminism did not exist until these moments--the idea that women and men should be treated equally has always existed--it's just that these are the moments when feminists were organized and influential to such a degree that they managed to shift paradigms in a way that could be considered seismic.

"To the feminist." you are automaticly "Sexiest."

Hilarious typo aside, this is actually somewhat accurate, but not quite, and not in the way you think. It'd be more accurate to say that they believe that...

a) Society has been set up in a way designed to discriminate against and audit women when it comes to almost every aspect of their lives--their dress, their eating habits, their sexuality, the way they walk, sit, talk, heck, even the way they breathe.

b) People will, unless instructed otherwise, absorb those tropes and narratives, because that's what they have been taught to do by everything around them.

c) They will repeat those tropes and narratives, often without malice, because they don't understand how they can be problematic.

So yes, almost anything and everything is sexist, insofar almost everything and anything will eventually err and indulge in sexist behavior or promote sexist tropes, from the most ardent misogynist to the most knowledgeable feminist (although the frequency with which they do so, of course, varies). This doesn't mean that everyone who does it being malicious or is a bad person; however, it also doesn't mean that it's not hurtful when it happens, or that it doesn't need to be called out. This is what feminists do.

And of cause when we bring the word into entertainment media it's just going to be even more convoluted as the word wasn't created for entertainment media, but for the job marked and reguluar society.

When-ever some-one brings the word. "Feminism." when talking entertainment media, they are not talking about actual feminism, they are talking about their own opinions on the topic, just using some word that sounds fancy and you can't argue with.

Now this is just wrong. Entertainment and media are of vital importance to feminism. Not only does it involve employment--they don't work for free, you know--but fiction and he media also serves as a mirror, telling us how society (or at least a significant portion of it) sees itself. Not only that, it is influential: for example, the landscape for LGBT / QUILTBAG people in America has changed a lot in the last two decades, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that positive images of gay people began appearing in the media, allowing people to see that hey, they're people. Closer to home, like I said in another thread, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation if the original Mirage book had had gender parity.

Originally Posted by Keroscene

I don't think the current show is particularly sexist (i.e. it's as sexist as everything else is).

I'm going to disagree. While the show has improved to a degree since its debut, and may improve more still, there have been too many cases of what I'd consider sexism fail in too little time. The way April is handled in the pilot identifying her as the love interest and nothing else. The execution of Don's crush on April, and the way the show remains silent on how creepy his behavior can get--the flowchart, in particular, is a horrible bit of business, once you think about it, since its predicated on the idea of avoiding a "no" at all costs. The still very much skewed gender ratios. It could be worse, but on the whole it could also be a whole lot better.

Originally Posted by Donatello19

Little girls don't care about whether or not there are main female characters. Just because the TMNT are boys means they won't appeal to female audiences? There are TONS of TMNT fan girls out there, just check tumblr and you'll see what I mean. This is like saying Mickey Mouse, Elmo or Spongebob wouldn't appeal to girls because they're boys.

a) Girls are not a monolith. Some little girls may not care, but not all of them. (The same is true for the opposite argument) b) The argument isn't that they can't enjoy show starring boys--if anything, society wants you to believe the opposite is true--but that it is also important for there to be good shows starring girls, and that the market isn't properly meeting that need.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The original toon had a lot of female characters when you think about it:

April
Irma
Lotus Blossom
Kala the Neutrino
Tempestra
Shreeka
Mona Lisa
April's Aunt Agatha
Dr. Goodfellow (black doctor from Season 4)
Zack's female friend from, "The Great Boldini"
Tiffiny (Burne's girlfriend)

...
...
...

I'm going to be over there.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

your point would be a lot more valid if Karai wasn't a ninja, maybe if we get another female villain that isn't a ninja

I'm not not sure how that's relevant to my point at all. Could you elaborate?

[Shredded]

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

What you are actually referring to is what is commonly known as Second-Wave Feminism, called that because in the United States, it followed first wave feminism of the early 20th century, which was mostly centered around the issue of female suffrage.

That's when the word was invented and became common use!

If you want to talk about women in genneral uprising towards men, and call ALL of it feminism, you can go as far back as the dyng-dynasti and there are stories.

Dude, we have recorded human history on this planet dating as far as four thousand years back, spreading across seven different continents, of cause there has been examples of womens up-rising through history.
Amazons, Valkyries ext, the ideas came from some-where.

Feminism as a word is vague it barely means any-thing, and if you can't argue for womens rights, and that there should be better female characters without using the word, you aren't doing it good enough.

Originally Posted by Dirty Blond

Sexism will truly be over when we treat one another as individuals, not as members of contrived groups. That requires a major paradigm shift. Until that happens, we'll just have to keep going around in circles.

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of living in a matrix.

I agree with this.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I'm actually not entirely sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?

IIRC you were complaining about the extras.

We already know why random people are out... so that leaves the kraang and the Foot ninjas. Both groups are 100% guys. However, the Utroms actually bothered to put on female disguises, whereas the Kraang do not.

Again, I'll blame the expensive 3D models.

BTW do the 2K3 had female ninjas who're not Karai? I don't remember.

The point wasn't that there's anything wrong with them being love interest (although the way the arcs are executed is another matter); the point was that until Ms. Campbell, the only way to be a female and be character in the story was by being a love interest, which is a sexist double-standard.

I really don't consider Karai as "just a love interest" in that show, so I don't have that problem. And really, because Leo has a crush on her, we must immediately reject Karai's other characteristics as an enemy and a rival?

I need to see more of April if that concern is justifiable. The good thing about being an old franchise is that we all know April wasn't created to be someone's girlfriend.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

BTW do the 2K3 had female ninjas who're not Karai? I don't remember.

Yeah. Joi, Chikara, the girl in Feudal Japan with the giant double sword.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Yeah. Joi, Chikara, the girl in Feudal Japan with the giant double sword.

Joi's a foot ninja?

[ToTheNines]

My bad, I didn't know you meant Foot specifically.

Other than a few obscure Mirage instances, Foot ninja are always portrayed as male.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Jester

Can we not just enjoy media for good stories and memorable characters instead of trying to dissect some sort of deeper philosophical or sociological underpinnings?

Does EVERYTHING come back to how everyone but the straight, white, male is a disenfranchised minority?

Sure, if you're willing to settle for good stories. Me personally? I'm shooting for great ones.

If you're not interesting in dissecting the media you're soaking in, you might be better served to avoid threads like this one. Because it seems to me you're a little too unhappy about the fact that your status quo is being questioned.

Originally Posted by Shredded

Dude, we have recorded human history on this planet dating as far as four thousand years back, spreading across seven different continents, of cause there has been examples of womens up-rising through history.
Amazons, Valkyries ext, the ideas came from some-where.

[strike]You do realize Amazons and Valkyries are fictional, right?[/strike]
Read too quickly before posting.

Yes, let's talk about the mythos of Amazons and Valkyries, and how they're male fantasies.
The Amazons are there to be tamed by men. The Valkyries are there to herald the brave to heaven.

[Candy Kappa]

The Foot are depicted as males as far as we know, with them wearing masks and semi loose fitting clothes. Who's to say there are no female Ninja minions among the anonymous ranks of the Foot. In the Nick show, they haven't even talked, can't remember them even grunt. What comes especially in mind is when the Foot ninja are plucked one by one in the sewer when Bradford and Xever with minions is down the sewer after the turtles.

And the Kraang droids, well. Bugger, they are all in male skin suits. But adding an extra skin suit, would that ruin the joke that they all look the same? I guess there could be a female MIB skin suit as well, but why, if they are meant to look all alike, then there is no reason in that department. Maybe we'll see some new skin suits after the season end, it seems like the Kraang is fairly novice about humans.

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

I'm not not sure how that's relevant to my point at all. Could you elaborate?

Ninja, masters of deceit, manipulation and espionage.

Female ninja, Kunoichi was especially trained to take advantage of others of opposite sex. Mochizuki Chiyome did so with her all-girl Shinobi school (If Mochizuki actually existed, she might be a fabrication from the Edo period) Where she trained her Kunoichi to blend in as geisha, nun and prostitutes to more easily do espionage or assassination jobs.

Karai clearly don't have any romantic interest (as of yet) in Leonardo, she is putting him off-guard and manipulates him. She is a ninja. If the trend continues with female villains to use sexual tension to their gain, then I can see the sexist notion; good girls are asexual and bad girls are sexual.

She might be a poor choice for first female villain with such a short female character list. But I don't see any malicious undertones in it. Except making karai the underling of Shredder, again. But that I have expressed before, girls are not allowed to rule over Shredder.

[Keroscene]

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

I'm going to disagree. While the show has improved to a degree since its debut, and may improve more still, there have been too many cases of what I'd consider sexism fail in too little time. The way April is handled in the pilot identifying her as the love interest and nothing else. The execution of Don's crush on April, and the way the show remains silent on how creepy his behavior can get--the flowchart, in particular, is a horrible bit of business, once you think about it, since its predicated on the idea of avoiding a "no" at all costs. The still very much skewed gender ratios. It could be worse, but on the whole it could also be a whole lot better.

I think April's always been problematic. To me, she's always struck me as someone who is just... there. I find the Nick version of her preferable to other versions, but even so I get the feeling she is there simply because there has always been an April O'Neil in TMNT and because fans expect her to be there. Her main function in most iterations of TMNT has been to sit and have the Turtles origin story explained to her and then she does have a tendency to either become defined by her relationship to Casey or to slip into the background after that.

The gender ratios, yes, that's messed up. I didn't like the idea of Venus because she seemed tokenistic (her entire identity was: she's the female turtle) but I don't see why you can't have more female supporting characters and villains.

As for Don's crush, I'm not so convinced on that. You might well be the same person I discussed this with on Tumblr so I won't go into all of that. But I think the flowchart is more a result of "too insecure/shy to go into a situation without plans and backups and such" than it is "won't take no for an answer." I don't think it's a "nice guy" thing, I think it's a "teenage boy doesn't know how to behave like a normal person" thing.

[plastroncafe]

I've mentioned it other places, but April is at her best when she's the "Zeppo", a reference to a Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode dedicated to the one non-occult character on the show.

The Mirage volume 1 comic "True Stories" is hands down one of the best books of the run, and it's all from April's point of view. Where she HAS a point of view.

Of course, then in volume 4 her Zeppo status is stripped from her in order to manufacture a completely unnecessary existential crisis.

In short: April has always been a wet hot mess of a character, and I can only assume this is the case because the people doing the writing have no idea how to write female characters.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by Jester

Does EVERYTHING come back to how everyone but the straight, white, male is a disenfranchised minority?

As long as most people who aren't straight white males are disenfranchised minorities, then yeah, pretty much.

There's no reason the conversation has to be hostile, though.