Did Jagwar's mom have sex with a jaguar? (Archie)

*Andrew NDB* · 08-08-2013, 02:04 PM

It's a serious question. As a kid and even now, the most disturbing thing to me is probably the halfway point in the Mutanimals mini where we finally got the Jagwar origin. I mean really, guys, let's take off our nostalgia goggles and break it down. I know later on in the actual Mutanimals ongoing series they went into it a little more, but here... here we only got a single page about it, and it's pretty troubling. Basically, Jagwar's mom -- a human who "was not like most people... she was very--how you say--bored, and uninterested in everyday life" -- gets up and goes to to check out this temple, meets the spirit of a living jaguar and "they met as equals... and their spirits came to know love." This is indicated by a panel in which she's sitting cross-legged and her spirit is holding hands with the jaguar spirit. The next panel is her holding a newborn baby jaguar with the caption, "And through that love... came I."

That's it. That's all the origin we get. I mean, what are we supposed to get from that? She got bestialized on the astral plane and came back pregnant? Good god. Did she get slipped a proverbial roofie and impregnated somehow by the "jaguar spirit" somewhere lurking in the bushes? Was this pregnancy even planned, discussed beforehand (and if not, how would she have thought, known, or expected a pregnancy to result from an innocent enough meditative astral plane encounter?)? It just seems like she meditates and says, "hey, wussup, jaguar spirit... you seem kinda cool" and the jaguar spirit pipes back, "Yeah, you're kinda cool too" and then BAM, pregnant. Why isn't she pissed? Pretty well beyond jarring, especially when read now. What's even more disturbing is knowing that later on, having read some of the Mutanimals ongoing issues, that this "jaguar spirit" can -- at times -- assume apparently tangible, physical form... do you see where I'm going with this?

Yikes, guys. Just yikes. What do you think?

Topsu · 08-08-2013, 02:28 PM

Had to check from the actual comicbook (Mighty Mutanimals #1 if others are interested) how it was explained. It was just like Andrew said, and I must admit that I really don't have a clue.

It is possible that there was bestiality involved, but I think it is implied that it happened on astral plane, if at all. Then somehow the jaguarspirit materialized her pregnant somehow, or just materialized Jagwar, without pregnancy. You never know about spirits, maybe he just made Jagwar and said: "He's your son now." Either that, or yes to your question.

EDIT: Seems to be explained same way in mini-series 2 like you said, there's no more info on actual series.

*DrSpengler* · 08-08-2013, 02:47 PM

Yeah, they never show any sort of anthropomorphic form as an option for Yaguaro (the jaguar spirit) or even hint that he can manifest one, so the superficial impression is that Juntarra (Jagwar's mother) had sex with a non-anthropomorphic jaguar (sapient though he may have been).

For the record, they recount the same story from Mighty Mutanimals (miniseries) #2 in Mighty Mutanimals (ongoing) #1 and the setup is still the same.

To give Steve Murphy the benefit of the doubt, I'd like to think that Jagwar's conception wasn't the physical sort of sex we mere mortals understand, but something spiritual and on a higher cosmic plane. Like both Juntarra and Yaguaro left any semblance of their physical manifestations behind, became pure energy on the astral plane and Yaguaro impregnated Juntarra in that form (they DO say they "met as equals).

...Not a straight up bestiality-fueled yiff-session where a feral jaguar gets it on with a normal human.

But that's a lot of my own interpretation. Murphy leaves his terminology vague and uncomfortable. It's really best not to dwell on it too much. These comics are furry enough as it is without having to drag zoophilia into the mix...

wilddiverse · 08-08-2013, 02:52 PM

This never bothered me as a kid. It took me no seconds to liken the process of a Jaguar-Spirit and Jungle Woman making a baby to the whole Christmas business where formless God made Virgin Lady pregnant. It just wasn't something you can or should think to hard about.

Scandalous! Their spirits high-fived:

Heather Breckel · 08-08-2013, 04:18 PM

It looks like it's implied it happened on the astral plane. Otherwise I'm assuming a spirit can take many forms.

Lord Nightwalker · 08-08-2013, 04:33 PM

I'm thinking it was a spiritual coupling. Kind of like what we've seen in horror movies over the years, and similar to stories from mythology and religions.
But this was a really good question man.

*CyberCubed* · 08-08-2013, 04:37 PM

Yes between this and Ninjara its obvious Murphy was a furry.

wilddiverse · 08-08-2013, 05:00 PM

It's obvious he's a soully.

*Cipher* · 08-08-2013, 06:31 PM

I think it's pretty clear from the panels shown above that Juntarra got high on Peyote and dreamed she high-fived a jaguar (hardcore!), and the next day she woke up and found a tiny kitten in a blanket.

And that is the secret of Jagwar's origin.

*Raph's Girl* · 08-08-2013, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Yes between this and Ninjara its obvious Murphy was a furry.

And don't forget Future Raph's coyote wife Mezcaal.

*CyberCubed* · 08-08-2013, 06:51 PM

Its amazing what you learn from a guy through his writing. Never understood the sexualization of animals.

wilddiverse · 08-08-2013, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Its amazing what you learn from a guy through his writing. Never understood the sexualization of animals.

Yet you're a fan of the humanification of animals. Should all these characters have been spayed and neutered? Are they half-human and half-animal from the halves that don't feel biological urges?

I don't follow how the details of Jagwar's origin as seen above is some huge flashing indicator of the writer's proclivities as it seems to simply be par for the course with the recurring themes of nature and spirituality in Murphy's work in TMNTA and Puma Blues.

*TigerClaw* · 08-08-2013, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raph's Girl

And don't forget Future Raph's coyote wife Mezcaal.

Indeed.

***First of Two Latin Kings*** · 08-08-2013, 07:12 PM

Mezcaal is a coyote? Why did I always think she was Ninjara's grand-daughter? I could have SWORN Dan Berger said that in one of his issue synopses on the official site...

*TigerClaw* · 08-08-2013, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ***The One True Shredder***

Mezcaal is a coyote? Why did I always think she was Ninjara's grand-daughter? I could have SWORN Dan Berger said that in one of his issue synopses on the official site...

She never was Ninjara's Grand Daughter.

*Raph's Girl* · 08-08-2013, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ***The One True Shredder***

Mezcaal is a coyote? Why did I always think she was Ninjara's grand-daughter? I could have SWORN Dan Berger said that in one of his issue synopses on the official site...

Somebody here emailed Dan a year or so ago and asked him what Mez was and he (Dan) said she was a Coyote which makes sense since Mezcaal is the name of an alcaholic drink made from a type of desert plant known as Agave or Century Plant.

*Redeemer* · 08-08-2013, 07:24 PM

Wow, (Insert generic Curse word here) I can't believe this was a thread

*Coola Yagami* · 08-08-2013, 08:08 PM

Short answer. Yes. Yes she did. No man could tame her. It takes an animal god to please her.

*Coola Yagami* · 08-08-2013, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Yes between this and Ninjara its obvious Murphy was a furry.

The Turtles just can't win. If they have human girlfriends, it's like ewwwww humans with mutant turtles... if they have mutant girlfriends, the creators must be furries.

Why not just have Splinter cut their balls off after mutation?

Pterobat · 08-08-2013, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

The Turtles just can't win. If they have human girlfriends, it's like ewwwww humans with mutant turtles... if they have mutant girlfriends, the creators must be furries.

Why not just have Splinter cut their balls off after mutation?

Yeah, this. Er...minus the last part.

I always assumed that Mezcaal was from the same species as Ninjara, but no actual relation to her (because that would be creeeppyyy). But I guess now there were naturally-occurring wolf, fox, AND coyote people out there for some reason.

And, yeah, it was probably meant for Juntarra to have conceived Jagwar on the astral plane or something along those lines, but we all know what it looks like. Ew.

View Poll Results: Did Jagwar's mom have sex with a jaguar?
She totally did.	25	62.50%
I don't think she did.	7	17.50%
I don't know WHAT to think!	8	20.00%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

08-08-2013, 02:52 PM	#4
wilddiverse Stone Warrior Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Chicago-ish Posts: 698	This never bothered me as a kid. It took me no seconds to liken the process of a Jaguar-Spirit and Jungle Woman making a baby to the whole Christmas business where formless God made Virgin Lady pregnant. It just wasn't something you can or should think to hard about. Scandalous! Their spirits high-fived: __________________ Great Typo, Unfortunate Truth: "The once gritty, satirical, hard-hitting Turtles became cuddly, fun-loving, pizz-swirling heroes to little kids" <Picture of a dead turtle> Last edited by wilddiverse; 08-08-2013 at 03:11 PM.

08-08-2013, 05:00 PM	#8
wilddiverse Stone Warrior Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Chicago-ish Posts: 698	It's obvious he's a soully. __________________ Great Typo, Unfortunate Truth: "The once gritty, satirical, hard-hitting Turtles became cuddly, fun-loving, pizz-swirling heroes to little kids" <Picture of a dead turtle>

08-08-2013, 07:24 PM	#17
Redeemer Technodrome Technician Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: third earth Posts: 4,737	Wow, (Insert generic Curse word here) I can't believe this was a thread __________________ GT:Reedeamer *THE TECHNODROME REDESIGN 2015* http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=51594

08-08-2013, 08:08 PM	#18
Coola Yagami Overlord Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 15,685	Short answer. Yes. Yes she did. No man could tame her. It takes an animal god to please her. __________________ "I was down with TMNT once, but then they changed what TMNT was. Now what I was down with is no longer TMNT and what TMNT now is seems weird and scary. And it'll happen to YOU." Check out my blog for Comic Reviews and other things. https://markepicblogofrandomness.blogspot.com/ I also started The AEW Crew, the All Elite Wrestling Fan Club! https://www.facebook.com/groups/637508120044168/

08-08-2013, 02:04 PM	#1
Andrew NDB Weed Whacker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 34,422	Did Jagwar's mom have sex with a jaguar? (Archie) It's a serious question. As a kid and even now, the most disturbing thing to me is probably the halfway point in the Mutanimals mini where we finally got the Jagwar origin. I mean really, guys, let's take off our nostalgia goggles and break it down. I know later on in the actual Mutanimals ongoing series they went into it a little more, but here... here we only got a single page about it, and it's pretty troubling. Basically, Jagwar's mom -- a human who "was not like most people... she was very--how you say--bored, and uninterested in everyday life" -- gets up and goes to to check out this temple, meets the spirit of a living jaguar and "they met as equals... and their spirits came to know love." This is indicated by a panel in which she's sitting cross-legged and her spirit is holding hands with the jaguar spirit. The next panel is her holding a newborn baby jaguar with the caption, "And through that love... came I." That's it. That's all the origin we get. I mean, what are we supposed to get from that? She got bestialized on the astral plane and came back pregnant? Good god. Did she get slipped a proverbial roofie and impregnated somehow by the "jaguar spirit" somewhere lurking in the bushes? Was this pregnancy even planned, discussed beforehand (and if not, how would she have thought, known, or expected a pregnancy to result from an innocent enough meditative astral plane encounter?)? It just seems like she meditates and says, "hey, wussup, jaguar spirit... you seem kinda cool" and the jaguar spirit pipes back, "Yeah, you're kinda cool too" and then BAM, pregnant. Why isn't she pissed? Pretty well beyond jarring, especially when read now. What's even more disturbing is knowing that later on, having read some of the Mutanimals ongoing issues, that this "jaguar spirit" can -- at times -- assume apparently tangible, physical form... do you see where I'm going with this? Yikes, guys. Just yikes. What do you think? __________________ [ ODYSSEY \| ORIGIN \| THE IMAGE/VOL. 3 CONCLUSION \| THE SHELLSHOCKED PODCAST \| ON FACEBOOK ]

08-08-2013, 02:28 PM	#2
Topsu Hench Mutant Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 400	Had to check from the actual comicbook (Mighty Mutanimals #1 if others are interested) how it was explained. It was just like Andrew said, and I must admit that I really don't have a clue. It is possible that there was bestiality involved, but I think it is implied that it happened on astral plane, if at all. Then somehow the jaguarspirit materialized her pregnant somehow, or just materialized Jagwar, without pregnancy. You never know about spirits, maybe he just made Jagwar and said: "He's your son now." Either that, or yes to your question. EDIT: Seems to be explained same way in mini-series 2 like you said, there's no more info on actual series.

08-08-2013, 02:47 PM	#3
DrSpengler Foot Elite Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 4,842	Yeah, they never show any sort of anthropomorphic form as an option for Yaguaro (the jaguar spirit) or even hint that he can manifest one, so the superficial impression is that Juntarra (Jagwar's mother) had sex with a non-anthropomorphic jaguar (sapient though he may have been). For the record, they recount the same story from Mighty Mutanimals (miniseries) #2 in Mighty Mutanimals (ongoing) #1 and the setup is still the same. To give Steve Murphy the benefit of the doubt, I'd like to think that Jagwar's conception wasn't the physical sort of sex we mere mortals understand, but something spiritual and on a higher cosmic plane. Like both Juntarra and Yaguaro left any semblance of their physical manifestations behind, became pure energy on the astral plane and Yaguaro impregnated Juntarra in that form (they DO say they "met as equals). ...Not a straight up bestiality-fueled yiff-session where a feral jaguar gets it on with a normal human. But that's a lot of my own interpretation. Murphy leaves his terminology vague and uncomfortable. It's really best not to dwell on it too much. These comics are furry enough as it is without having to drag zoophilia into the mix...

08-08-2013, 04:18 PM	#5
Heather Breckel Official TMNT Staff/Cast Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 308	It looks like it's implied it happened on the astral plane. Otherwise I'm assuming a spirit can take many forms.

08-08-2013, 04:33 PM	#6
Lord Nightwalker Stone Warrior Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 698	I'm thinking it was a spiritual coupling. Kind of like what we've seen in horror movies over the years, and similar to stories from mythology and religions. But this was a really good question man.

08-08-2013, 04:37 PM	#7
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,813	Yes between this and Ninjara its obvious Murphy was a furry.

08-08-2013, 06:31 PM	#9
Cipher Foot Elite Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 3,454	I think it's pretty clear from the panels shown above that Juntarra got high on Peyote and dreamed she high-fived a jaguar (hardcore!), and the next day she woke up and found a tiny kitten in a blanket. And that is the secret of Jagwar's origin.

08-08-2013, 06:51 PM	#11
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,813	Its amazing what you learn from a guy through his writing. Never understood the sexualization of animals.