Why do people hate DC's New 52 comics?

[CyberCubed]

I've seen many people claim DC went downhill since the NEW 52 with people claiming they hate it or have "jumped ship" so to speak.

I can't understand why people think its any worse than what came directly before it. How is this any different from the previous "crisis" that retconned continuity beforehand?

[Ulisa]

I think you're going to get a different response from almost every one you ask because it seems like it bothers people for all manner of reasons.

Speaking from my own personal opinion, I don't like it because it "erased" the life and achievements of my favorite character: Wally West as the Flash and consequently, his development from Kid Flash into taking over the role of his mentor. Considering Wally is pretty much treated as a joke in any animated form, the comics were the place where I really saw his abilities shine and the New 52 just put him out of existence.

The rebooted Flash, Barry Allen, has had his personality changed almost entirely that it does not even feel like the same character that mentored Kid Flash in the old comics. His love for his wife Iris was a major point in the old comics (as is Wally's love for his wife, Linda) so when they cast that aside, it seemed to add insult to injury. I would not have a problem with small changes but the New 52 just completely altered, entirely, not just the universe of the Flash comics but the core personalities of the characters and I think that's a big issue. The personalities were why I fell in love with the characters in the first place.

Ultimately, this is where my dislike lies: with the Flash comics; the rebooted Nightwing, Batman franchises I don't think are half-bad. There were certain elements I liked better than others but I think the basic personalities were kept intact.

Just my two cents

[dkram230]

I thought the new Batman title was very well received as one if the best Batman storytellings in years. And the whole new 52 project in general spurred up enough sales to entice Marvel to essentially copy the same idea. I'm not saying that it worked for all titles, but as a whole I think DC is doing much better now sales wise than it was 5 years ago.

[Leo656]

There are TONS of reasons. None of them are specifically about having to "reboot" some or all of the line; that happens every 15-20 years, sometimes sooner. But usually they try and at least respect and incorporate everything that had come before, and keep the new stories similar. The general idea is that, a few inconsistencies aside, most of the stories you read 20 years ago should still be "acceptable history" for stories you're reading today. For the most part, one of DC's biggest strengths has always been respecting even their very earliest history. The New 52, on the other hand, keeps most of Batman's history intact (while mangling certain parts of it to make it "fit" the new regime) and either erases or completely rewrites everything else. Sometimes, the changes are just too drastic to be acceptable; some characters are entirely different people from any version of them ever presented, others who were really, really popular are inexplicably erased, and that comes off as supremely disrespectful to the fans of those characters.

In the past, they used the "parallel Earth" trope to allow some inconsistencies to creep in as decades went on, which was easy enough to accept as an explanation as to how some characters could look different from era to era, others would die and come back, etc. It allowed some things to be changed or moved forward, but still used all the older stories as a loose backstory. From 1938 to 2010, DC comics' universe could be as accessible to readers of any age, because even stories your Grandfather read about Superman as a kid were still referenced in the newer stories to various degrees, even if some of the specific details had been changed slightly over the years, the general idea was, "Those things still happened, sort of." From 2004 to 2009, in particular, DC became HEAVILY involved in re-establishing literally every story that had ever been published as being important, through various arcs and cross-overs in "Identity Crisis", "Justice League of America", "Infinite Crisis", "Final Crisis", Morrison's "Batman" run, and many others. Suddenly, stories that had been ignored for 20+ years were being treated as equally important to stories you just read a month ago, which is both good for rewarding obsessive, long-term readers and collectors (like me), and also great for the back-issue and trade paperback collector's markets; having it be reinforced that older issues and stories "still matter" creates interest in those older stories, and makes people want to read them to "get the whole story". Sometimes, there's even a nice cross-promotional thing that happens when a famous DC story would be replicated, in part or as a whole, in another medium. For example, when Terra debuted on the Teen Titans cartoon, issues of the book from the 80s featuring her character, including the pivotal "The Judas Contract" story, briefly saw a spike in interest and sales. It was just a great way to do business, rewarding older fans and providing new readers with a bridge to earlier eras. Literally all you had to do to know everything about a DC character and their history was read one or two TPBs, and you could more or less pass as an expert.

Then they got desperate and cranky when a few of their big "event" books didn't sell as well as they needed them to, and decided to panic and restart literally everything, and suddenly huge chunks of familiar, established DC history was wiped out as "inconvenient". Unlike earlier house-cleanings and re-starts, like "Crisis on Infinite Earths" and its underrated follow-up, "Zero Hour", the New 52 decides to "simplify" things by just saying "Nah, none of that sh*t happened, nevermind." And it came off as cheap and unnecessary, a publicity stunt to attract people who had never read DC, and it did get some of those people, but sales have flattened out since they did the re-start, which is showing that the chunk of established fans who left was larger than the newer fans who came in.

Just one example: One of my favorite characters was always Guy Gardner, both in Green Lantern and his own book. In his solo title, the best storyline by far was the "Yesterday's Sins" arc, establishing his family history, who his parents were, his brother, his abusive relationships with them, and it went a long way to explaining who the character was and why he acted the way he did. Flash forward to the New 52, and Guy and his family have entirely different history, different names, different everything, to the point where it's not even really the same character anymore, since everything behind it is different. It's a similar-looking character with the same name, but literally everything about who he is has been changed entirely, in a way that is no way consistent with anything we knew about who he is or how he became that person.

Add in things like erasing Superman's marriage to Lois, completely making Barry Allen a different personality type, having Wally West never exist at all (He had his own series for 20 years! He was ARGUABLY a more important character to the DCU than Barry had ever been! THESE ARE NOT SMALL CHANGES!), turning Starfire more or less into a slut, and it all becomes a lot of bitter pills to swallow all at once. THEN, add in the fact that most writers are beyond pissed with DC, because their little editorially-forced retcon has them completely handcuffed to the idea of "fitting in" with the new regime, rather than telling the stories they want to tell, and it gets even worse. Several DC writers either publicly quit while exposing all the behind-the-scenes grief, or stepped away from popular books and very politely saying basically the same things about how bad the whole thing has been on the writers in general.

When a guy like George Perez, who has been writing and drawing Superman for over 30 years, has to willingly step back from writing Superman after just a few issues because he no longer "gets what they are doing with Superman" and "can't make it work", you know something is seriously wrong with the entire approach.

Finally, absolutely NONE of the New 52 stories have been good enough to justify the changes. At worst, the stories fail epically compared to the originals, like with Guy and Starfire, and at best, they could have been just as easily done using the OLD continuity, like Green Lantern and Batman. There were a few problems with some of the line in 2009-2010, mostly they banked everything on "Return of Krypton/War of the Superman" and it was too long and boring and didn't do good business, but the books and their stories were good-to-great all around. Nothing since has been any better, so the reboot was entirely pointless and did more harm than good.

They basically tried to kill a mosquito with a bazooka, and just made a bigger mess of everything. That's been the problem the whole time.

[Gwydion]

My perspective is a bit different as I only tried to get into comics in 2009 - sure I read a lot of back issues, but I didn't have the same connection that a lot of long time comic readers had. And being so overwhelmed I really just stuck with the Batman universe.

A big reason I disliked it so much was because pretty much all the books I was reading were cancelled or changed in a way I just wasn't interested in. I loved Steph as Batgirl, and she was pretty much retconned out of existence. Additionally, I was enjoying the Red Robin and Streets of Gotham books, both of which are gone with no real equivalent (that I knew of, anyway - I didn't stick around long after the changes). And, even though I knew it would be gone eventually, I really liked the Dick/Damian Batman/Robin dynamic, so I wasn't really interested in the Batman and Robin book anymore - for whatever reason, the Bruce/Damian angle wasn't as interesting to me.

Saying that, I didn't think it was all bad, but it just didn't grab me like the stories before it had, and I was kind of annoyed that all the reading I'd done to try and understand the characters better was now for nothing. If more of the books/characters I was interested in stuck around in some form, I would have given it more of a shot, but really Nightwing was the only one I was initially interested in, and in the end I just liked Dick as part of a team more than in a solo series.

[CyberCubed]

What I don't get is why they didn't reboot everything instead of certain series? How does it make sense for the Batman timeline to be kept as is, yet Superman has been reversed back to the beginning?

They probably should have just started an all-new continuity for every series. Imagine how funny it would be to see new stories with Dick Grayson as Robin and Batman early in his career?

[InsaneZane]

Because a lot of people are afraid of change. The New 52 changed more than a lot of comic buffs can keep up with and they Nerd-Rage over it.
Out with the old in with the New (52) I say,
The original comics will always be there and hold an experience on it's own, but the fact of the matter is... New 52 is primarily for people trying to "Hop on" to a new series.

[Shark_Blade]

I like most of New 52, except some.. like for example Super Girl's new look...




So slutty lol.



Old outfit:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergi...%29#The_New_52

[CyberCubed]

Does she really look like that? Is the last picture on the right fanart or from a comic?

[Leo656]

Everyone's sh*tty new costumes are another thing I didn't mention because it's mostly superficial, but they're still sh*tty. "Ooooh, look! Everyone has armor and/or seam lines now! Look how not-busy and not-clunky it is! Soooo modern and stuff!" Ugh. Supergirl's is indeed one of the worst.

They don't NEED to "re-start everything", they got along just fine for 70 years just by "shuffling" things a little bit now and then. When you "wipe the slate" completely, you're implying that there was something "wrong" with the way things were before, and by extension, implying that the people who liked those stories are sort of stupid for liking them so much, "because this new stuff is soooo much better, you guys." Example: "You liked Wally West's Flash? What a loser, Barry's obviously the way to go! Bet you feel like a sucker for buying into that character for 20+ years and buying over 230 issues of his book! None of that dumb sh*t happened, you mark." That's insulting to your established readers. And frankly, when you've read hundreds of stories in dozens of books establishing that yes, this character not only existed, he was VERY important to everything that happened to the entire DCU, it causes massive migraine headaches trying to wrap your brain around the idea that he and every story including him never, ever happened.

Why you would entirely buck an established, successful business model that worked for three-quarters of a century and made pretty much everyone happy, only to flip the script and try a new approach that really doesn't work and alienates most of the people who have been with you from Day One, is entirely beyond me.

Many of the people *working on* the books are saying how sh*tty the project is, ranging from hacks like Rob Liefeld to established veterans like George Perez. That tells me plenty. It's not "nerd rage", it's a natural reaction to a pointless, unnecessary, overly-complicated retcon. The very best stories could have still easily been done without changing anything; the rest is sh*t. Maybe if it didn't come off as so fake and not necessary, it would be easier to accept. Instead, it's transparently a sales-boosting publicity stunt, and it DIDN'T WORK! So again, why bother?

Literally dozens of stories over just the past 15 years were designed for new readers to "Hop On", and again, DC's mythology is so easy to get into that you could read just a couple TPBs and be an expert. It was like homework, but fun. It was arguably a lot easier to jump in fresh than it is now, because now there's tons of contradictory material out there. New readers working backwards are easily confused, because none of those stories mean anything in relation to the modern stuff. Like all those classic Superman stories? Have fun reading them? Well, prepare to "Un-learn what you have learned," because he isn't even the same GUY anymore! He acts almost totally different! To be "modern" and "angsty" they sh*tcanned the fact that he was RAISED on Earth and pretty happy and well-adjusted about it, and went back to the BORING angle of "He's an alien who can't relate to anyone because of how sad he is about being 'different'." That is NOT Superman, Superman always gave less than a sh*t about being an alien and appreciates his gifts. The "sad and mopey" routine is annoying. To grow up idolizing the character and learning his mythology backwards and forwards, only to have it all wiped out so he can be 5 years younger and attract more Marvel fans, is frankly infuriating, unnecessary, and ultimately misguided.

[CyberCubed]

I guess the difference is look at how movie and cartoon continuity is rebooted all the time. Everytime a new Batman cartoon is announced for TV, its a brand new reboot that has no ties to a previous version.

Perhaps comic continuity should go on for 10 years, and then after every 10 years they reboot the property doing new or different things.

[Leo656]

Yet they still mostly stick to the established mythology, isn't that odd? When they deviate greatly from what people who actually read comics know and expect, the show either fails to find an audience OR, like Smallville, only appeals to people who never liked the character to begin with.

Batman: The Animated Series, Superman: The Animated Series, and Justice League/Justice League Unlimited were slavishly devoted to the source material, and any changes made only streamlined existing stories, they didn't blatantly change or contradict things "just because". They were also the most popular animated series based on comic books ever. Other, less-faithful versions have been nowhere near as popular. Make of that what you will; it tells me people like what they like and want more of the same, but expanded into other media.

I've explained to you before how comics are and HAVE to be different from TV and cartoons. In case you forgot, I'll reiterate: Ten years is NOTHING in comic book time, because it takes 6-12 issues to tell ONE good story. If comics were rebooted every ten years, we would get 10-15 good stories for each character, and then we have to start over, do the f*cking origin again, and Dick Grayson would never age past 16. It's a stupid idea.

No, what WORKS is what they DID do in the past, which was *streamline* everything every 15-20 years with some kind of time travel/alternate dimension event where they could kill off or exile characters who were stale, having characters "forget" events that didn't make sense in modern context, or revive characters who hadn't been seen in a while, incorporating them into the new canon. Zero Hour was a really good example of doing a little bit of all of that, and at the end they went so far as to establish a set timeline of events of DC History. You read one 5-issue mini-series, and you know everything about the DCU up to that point, as much as is/was relevant up to that point in time (1996). They didn't completely start over because they didn't HAVE to. Things worked SO MUCH better for so long, doing things that way.

[CyberCubed]

But how many people keep up with comics for the span of 10 years? Most people who followed comics in the 90's pretty much stopped in the early 2000's. A lot of people who started comic collecting in 2001-2002 pretty much retired now.

Most people don't spend their entire lives following a series. They just follow as long as they can and then either lose interest or become frustrated with a storyline and quit.

And thus these people never get closure.

[Leo656]

TPBs are cheap. Almost everything is reprinted nowadays. It's NOT that hard of a hobby to get into and maintain, it's just expensive sometimes if you start following lots of books. That's why I've been taking a break. I still keep up, just not as frequently.

Comics are for collectors and long-term readers now; they haven't been for casual readers or kids since they started raising prices dramatically in the early 1990s. The audience is long-term readers with lots of expendable income; they need to worry more about taking care of those people, more than "breaking in new readers" who could easily be "broken in" with a $10 TPB. Those types of "casual" types of people quit reading as soon as they do the math and figure out what it costs to follow more than a couple books on a monthly basis. And that's fine.

My problem is when companies try some drastic upheaval designed to "hook" those people who don't already read comics; they generally drop out again once it stops being "new" and starts being "expensive", and your existing fans who can and have been giving you their money already for a long time are now alienated.

I don't know, trying to explain how the comic industry works to people who aren't already immersed in it is difficult, like trying to explain how the wrestling business works to people who don't watch it. It's practically impossible to adequately explain why some things are and simply have to be a certain way in order to "work".

[Andrew NDB]

Marvel never has to do this sh*t, and I'm not even a Marvel fan.

The New 52 is the sum of all fears from DC. At least GL is mostly protected from it... though I too took great issue with the wildly lazy and unnecessary retconning of Guy Gardner's history.

[Leo656]

I absolutely LOVED "Yesterday's Sins", and having been a fan of the character for years, it only made me appreciate the character even more. It added so much depth and explained so much.

"Eh, we don't need it." Wiping out his entire history completely makes him a one-note character, easily summed up as "The Hot-Head" or "The Idiot" or "The Guy With The Bowl Haircut". Because THAT is all of what they kept of the character, and got rid of everything else that explained all of that. Which is shameful. And it pissed me off, because GL was mostly not tinkered with too much, and they only messed up one of the things that really shouldn't have been touched, at all.

At least he still exists. I guess fans of Wally West, Jade and Obsidian, and others can just go screw, eh? "Sorry, your favorite character is no longer important enough to exist. In fact, they're so inconsequential we can pretend they NEVER existed. HA! Burn!"

[Cipher]

Say what you will about it; it got me reading non-Turtles comics on a monthly basis for the first time in my life. I am that mythical "new reader" they wanted. Previously my only experience with DC was in one-off trades. The ability to jump into a (mostly) new story from the beginning, in a shared universe with a number of niche titles they'd never have published before, was really appealing. I'm still enjoying it.

So, whatever. Longtime readers who are put off by this -- Is it a better alternative to continue indefinitely? My only misgiving with the whole thing is the idea that they didn't allow the pre-New 52 series to properly conclude, instead foisting this whole, "We CHANGED TIME!" aspect on the universe, which is really terrible from a narrative perspective and just completely unnecessary.

But I am definitely down with the fact that they rebooted. And I can't imagine that, while there are definitely some terrible, overly serious books coming from DC now, the overall bad-to-good ratio is any worse than it was before. There's certainly more variety in the books they approve, with the whole gimmick of maintaining 52 shared universe books at any time.

[plastroncafe]

I was a new reader, until I found there was nothing worth reading.

DC is going to have to do a hell of a lot more than just reboot their universe to get me as a monthly reader. I want 3 dimensional character that I care about, not an ever increasing body count for the sake of ACTION!

And right now, ACTION looks like all they really care about.

That's not even getting into the crap baseline dudebro mentality that just oozes from every soundbite their staff unleashes.

No thanks, I'll stick with Marvel and the Indies.

[The Sewer Lord]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Everyone's sh*tty new costumes are another thing I didn't mention because it's mostly superficial, but they're still sh*tty. "Ooooh, look! Everyone has armor and/or seam lines now! Look how not-busy and not-clunky it is! Soooo modern and stuff!" Ugh. Supergirl's is indeed one of the worst.

They don't NEED to "re-start everything", they got along just fine for 70 years just by "shuffling" things a little bit now and then. When you "wipe the slate" completely, you're implying that there was something "wrong" with the way things were before, and by extension, implying that the people who liked those stories are sort of stupid for liking them so much, "because this new stuff is soooo much better, you guys." Example: "You liked Wally West's Flash? What a loser, Barry's obviously the way to go! Bet you feel like a sucker for buying into that character for 20+ years and buying over 230 issues of his book! None of that dumb sh*t happened, you mark." That's insulting to your established readers. And frankly, when you've read hundreds of stories in dozens of books establishing that yes, this character not only existed, he was VERY important to everything that happened to the entire DCU, it causes massive migraine headaches trying to wrap your brain around the idea that he and every story including him never, ever happened.

Why you would entirely buck an established, successful business model that worked for three-quarters of a century and made pretty much everyone happy, only to flip the script and try a new approach that really doesn't work and alienates most of the people who have been with you from Day One, is entirely beyond me.

Many of the people *working on* the books are saying how sh*tty the project is, ranging from hacks like Rob Liefeld to established veterans like George Perez. That tells me plenty. It's not "nerd rage", it's a natural reaction to a pointless, unnecessary, overly-complicated retcon. The very best stories could have still easily been done without changing anything; the rest is sh*t. Maybe if it didn't come off as so fake and not necessary, it would be easier to accept. Instead, it's transparently a sales-boosting publicity stunt, and it DIDN'T WORK! So again, why bother?

Literally dozens of stories over just the past 15 years were designed for new readers to "Hop On", and again, DC's mythology is so easy to get into that you could read just a couple TPBs and be an expert. It was like homework, but fun. It was arguably a lot easier to jump in fresh than it is now, because now there's tons of contradictory material out there. New readers working backwards are easily confused, because none of those stories mean anything in relation to the modern stuff. Like all those classic Superman stories? Have fun reading them? Well, prepare to "Un-learn what you have learned," because he isn't even the same GUY anymore! He acts almost totally different! To be "modern" and "angsty" they sh*tcanned the fact that he was RAISED on Earth and pretty happy and well-adjusted about it, and went back to the BORING angle of "He's an alien who can't relate to anyone because of how sad he is about being 'different'." That is NOT Superman, Superman always gave less than a sh*t about being an alien and appreciates his gifts. The "sad and mopey" routine is annoying. To grow up idolizing the character and learning his mythology backwards and forwards, only to have it all wiped out so he can be 5 years younger and attract more Marvel fans, is frankly infuriating, unnecessary, and ultimately misguided.

This sums it up.
Just like you feel about Gardner, I feel about the Martian Manhunter. They ruined the character entirely. He used to be what they turned Superman into today and turned him into a simple badass. Really?
And what about Fernus? The Martian was absolutely prefectly developed in that arc (The Burning? Was it something like that?) and now it's all thrown in water.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Marvel never has to do this sh*t

CoughOneMoreDayCough

What can I say that hasnt been said about the New 52? I'm probably more leniant towards it than others are because I loathe Marvel these days and want DC to suceed very badly and whoop their overrated movies and s*itty comics and cartoons six ways to Sunday, but really outside of GL, Wonder Woman and Batman (and even then, I don't think Scott Synder is the genius everyone beleives he is) I find the whole exercise futile and reflective of a company full of desperate characters. It's quite funny how Man of Steel prides itself on being the first Superman movie to embrace modern age aspects of the mythos in having Lois know who Clark is and in the comics she's back to being borderline clueless.

Originally Posted by Cipher

So, whatever. Longtime readers who are put off by this -- Is it a better alternative to continue indefinitely? My only misgiving with the whole thing is the idea that they didn't allow the pre-New 52 series to properly conclude, instead foisting this whole, "We CHANGED TIME!" aspect on the universe, which is really terrible from a narrative perspective and just completely unnecessary.

To be fair, some of the books DID have endings, but more often than not, the writer left you with a tease of an even better direction for the characters than the new 52 could ever hope to intice you with (Superman, Batgirl, and Teen Titans are three that got this treatment)

Morrison's Batman on the other hand felt like it ended the pre-52 Batverse adequetly, but then his run was one big meta commentary on the flippancy of being a mainstream franchise superhero which can apply itself to any interpretation of the character