New Ciro Nieli podcast... the future of Nick TMNT & more!

[Electric]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I believe you are wrong.
You seem to be suffering under the delusion that women don't outnumber men.
You also seem to be suffering under the delusion that boys are incapable of enjoying stories that involve female protagonists.

That's sad.

no, what i am trying to say, without stooping to the immaturity of attacking personal character, is that the basis of this show, the main characters that are essential, are more male. not saying that females cannot contribute, saying that they shouldnt be thrown in just to make it even.

to the second part, i never said that. you are jumping to false assumptions. i have no preference as to male/female characters. some of my favorite television/comic/movie characters are female. i dont think there is any relevance to whether a character is male or female. but what youre saying is that a show cannot be satisfying to girls if it involves mainly male protagonists. it goes both ways.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by NinjaMan

I'm curious, to male Pony fans ask for more male characters in the cast since the show has 6 main female characters and other guest female characters?

That was quick. I was at least expecting a little back and forth before the MLP red herring was tossed into the ring.

You know...I think the Bronies are making a big deal out of nothing. They have a few male ponies on there, they should just be happy with those. Besides, they're all just creepy MRAs in triby's, so...why should we listen to them?

Oh wait...no. No I'm not going to treat your question the way mine has been treated through out this thread.

You're not wrong. There should be gender parity in all of our media. We live in a gender parity world, why shouldn't our popular fiction represent that?
Make every male-targeted cartoon pass the Bechdel test, and we can talk about creating gender parity on MLP.

Girls have no problem what so ever finding themselves in male characters. For generations we've had no choice in the matter. We should be happy for what we get. But...you ask one guy to identify with a female character, and the cries of sexism are deafening.

Originally Posted by ElectricN

no, what i am trying to say, without stooping to the immaturity of attacking personal character, is that the basis of this show, the main characters that are essential, are more male. not saying that females cannot contribute, saying that they shouldnt be thrown in just to make it even.

to the second part, i never said that. you are jumping to false assumptions. i have no preference as to male/female characters. some of my favorite television/comic/movie characters are female. i dont think there is any relevance to whether a character is male or female. but what youre saying is that a show cannot be satisfying to girls if it involves mainly male protagonists. it goes both ways.

If you have no preference to male/female characters, then why should the gender of new characters matter at all? What would be the big deal if every mutant in season II was female?
Why is that not a possibility?

[CyberCubed]

Kraang Prime is male, not female. It only has a female VA.

Kraang Prime is intended to be a new incarnation of The Krang.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Irma's inclusion was what I was alluding to when I asked him about the Bechdel test. I was attempting to get more information without going after specific spoilers.

His answer leads me to believe we're either not getting a new female character, or we are and all they're going to talk about is boys.

Neither of those answers is particularly pleasing to me.

With the exception of a April, Karai, a robot, and the Kraang leader, every character on that show has been male. That's not just inexcusable, it's lazy storytelling.

Thank you for the interview. It really opened my eyes.

I'm bummed Irma is not a regular though, if Ciro saying Karai and April are enough.

And yes, it's lazy storytelling. No excuse.

Kraang Prime is intended to be a new incarnation of The Krang.

What happened to her? I haven't seen her since season 1.

[Electric]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

If you have no preference to male/female characters, then why should the gender of new characters matter at all? What would be the big deal if every mutant in season II was female?
Why is that not a possibility?

i could really care less if every mutant from now on was female, or suddenly all these human females became important. but, it would have to work. and if ciro finds that it works better with most being males, then again, i could really care less.

what im saying is that some shows are going to have more males, some more females. there is no need for every show to be equally split, cause it can take away from the show. so, if one show is better for having a fewer females, or a fewer males, then there should not be a rampant cry for it to be equal.

tmnt, for its history, has had more males. if the writers of this incarnation see fit to only have a few females, then why not. girls can still find enjoyment out of it, just as boys can find enjoyment out of shows with mostly females.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

You're not wrong. There should be gender parity in all of our media. We live in a gender parity world, why shouldn't our popular fiction represent that?

Don't take this the wrong way, but is there gender parity in your personal relationships? For every female friend do you have a male friend to balance it out? I know it's a flawed example, but it seem "gender specific media" could be seen in a similar light.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

i could really care less if every mutant from now on was female, or suddenly all these human females became important. but, it would have to work. and if ciro finds that it works better with most being males, then again, i could really care less.

what im saying is that some shows are going to have more males, some more females. there is no need for every show to be equally split, cause it can take away from the show. so, if one show is better for having a fewer females, or a fewer males, then there should not be a rampant cry for it to be equal.

tmnt, for its history, has had more males. if the writers of this incarnation see fit to only have a few females, then why not. girls can still find enjoyment out of it, just as boys can find enjoyment out of shows with mostly females.

I disagree. There should be more.

Girls shouldn't have to "settle" for an all sausage fest show when this version introduces originals like Bradford and Xever but then shy away from creating females because of the assumption that "boys hates cooties". That's... stupid.

Are little boys really that spineless they can't handle this?

[plastroncafe]

And I'm saying I disagree with you.
When the answer to the question "Why not more girls?" is: We have two in a cast of tens. Then the answer is wrong.

It's lazy writing and it's insulting to actual girls.
You can be good or evil, but you'll always be just a love interest...and quite possibly a pawn.

At least in the Mirage books the turtles were themselves pawns in the game of revenge. In this incarnation...it's only Karai that's objectified that way.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be one of the loudest people shouting down the inclusion of Venus di Milo. Why? Because one of my favorite subplots of the TMNT is that they're the only four of their species, and they're all guys. There's a "all is suffering" to that aspect of their story that I love.

I love that it makes Raph angry, and Donnie stoic. I love that it doesn't phase Leo and Mike happy to be alive. It gives these characters a depth that's often unspoken and underutilized. It's a human tragedy to non-human characters.

I love it. I eat that stuff for breakfast.

But that doesn't mean I don't want there to be more female representation.
Ninjara.
Mona Lisa.
Irma.
Robin (April's Sister)
Casey's Mom.

These are all characters from other runs of the show who could easily make an appearance.

What about April's Aunt? What about Timothy's parents?
Are there really no female foot soldiers? Seriously?

[Electric]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

I disagree. There should be more.

Girls shouldn't have to "settle" for an all sausage fest show when this version introduces original like Bradford and Xever and shy away from creating females because of the assumption that "boys hate cooties". That's... stupid.

again, youre saying that girls cannot enjoy a show that has a majority of male characters.

while subbing out bradford or xever for a girl wouldve been perfectly fine, it should be perfectly fine with them being as they are. and if this show sees it fit, and has plans for the male characters

Spoiler:

bradford to rahzar, fishface to armagedon, maybe?

then there shouldnt be a problem with it. i know those were just examples, im just making the point that if they have characters be male for a reason, then people shouldnt say "well why arent they girls?"

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Jester

Don't take this the wrong way, but is there gender parity in your personal relationships? For every female friend do you have a male friend to balance it out? I know it's a flawed example, but it seem "gender specific media" could be seen in a similar light.

I didn't when I was a misogynist. Back when I thought girls were dumb for not liking things like comic books or cartoons. In those days I wouldn't have been caught dead watching My Little Pony. And She-Ra? That was just a crap watering down of the awesome that was He-Man.

When I was a kid the girl characters were stupid, always needing saving. Why would I want to be like one of them?

These days though...I do have a male friend for every female. I might even have more female friends than I do male, for the first time in my life. Why? Because we've found a way to talk about the things we like without having to resort to male spaces where we're clearly not welcome.

Tumblr Fans.
Someone used that as a backhand way to refer to female fans in this very thread.

We shouldn't have "girl shows" and we shouldn't have "boy shows." We should have kid shows. Cartoons should be for everyone.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

again, youre saying that girls cannot enjoy a show that has a majority of male characters.

while subbing out bradford or xever for a girl wouldve been perfectly fine, it should be perfectly fine with them being as they are. and if this show sees it fit, and has plans for the male characters

Spoiler:

bradford to rahzar, fishface to armagedon, maybe?

then there shouldnt be a problem with it. i know those were just examples, im just making the point that if they have characters be male for a reason, then people shouldnt say "well why arent they girls?"

Isn't Rahzar just a dog and had the intelligence of an infant? If Ciro can make a change from that original version are you telling me he can't do the same thing for characters like Mona to be included in the show?

And if Bradford was a woman, then turned Dogpound and had Rahzar as a girl, this is bad for the show how?

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

... There should be gender parity in all of our media.We live in a gender parity world, why shouldn't our popular fiction represent that? ...

???

Smart people encourage equality of the sexes, but let's be honest. The world's not really like that. As for fiction... I think fiction should be anything. I think any story can be told, regardless of who or what it represents. I know this story means a lot to you, it does to me too, I'm a fan. Sometimes you just have to accept that it's not going to satisfy everything you want. I don't think it's fair to pull in some "greater purpose" or imply that it's "keeping women down" just because it doesn't satisfy what you want. TMNT has always been a story about dudes to me... four guys and their master. Every other character is supporting, and who cares what the race/gender/orientation/mutation of those characters are?

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

If you have no preference to male/female characters, then why should the gender of new characters matter at all? What would be the big deal if every mutant in season II was female?
Why is that not a possibility?

You ask why the gender should matter, but you're not happy with the lean towards the male gender. I am confused.

[Heather Breckel]

Originally Posted by NinjaMan

I'm curious, to male Pony fans ask for more male characters in the cast since the show has 6 main female characters and other guest female characters?

I'm obviously not male, but I imagine no guys really make a big deal of it because the creators haven't said anything along the lines of "no more guy characters".

And to answer demonsweat's question, no, Ciro should not be demonized for what he said. Criticism is totally fine and it's a way to help every artist grow. But saying the guy should lose his job or is an evil misogynist over this is way out of line and is far more harmful than helpful. People go way too extreme on the internet sometimes.

I think that "there needs to be more female representation in popular media" is a totally valid and important criticism that needs addressed in the industry period. But harassing the guy through tumblr and internet petitions isn't the best way to go about it.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

???
Smart people encourage equality of the sexes, but let's be honest. The world's not really like that. As for fiction... I think fiction should be anything. I think any story can be told, regardless of who or what it represents. I know this story means a lot to you, it does to me too, I'm a fan. Sometimes you just have to accept that it's not going to satisfy everything you want. I don't think it's fair to pull in some "greater purpose" or imply that it's "keeping women down" just because it doesn't satisfy what you want. TMNT has always been a story about dudes to me... four guys and their master. Every other character is supporting, and who cares what the race/gender/orientation/mutation of those characters are?

Can I ask a question?
Are you a white male between the ages of 13 and 35?

You ask why the gender should matter, but you're not happy with the lean towards the male gender. I am confused.

I join you in confusion. If race/gender/orientation/mutation doesn't matter at all, then why does the show have to skew male at all? It seems to me that everyone cares. From the people saying those of us who'd like to see more representation are "making something out of nothing" to those who profess that they "have always seen this as a story about dudes."

[Electric]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

And I'm saying I disagree with you.
When the answer to the question "Why not more girls?" is: We have two in a cast of tens. Then the answer is wrong.

It's lazy writing and it's insulting to actual girls.
You can be good or evil, but you'll always be just a love interest...and quite possibly a pawn.

At least in the Mirage books the turtles were themselves pawns in the game of revenge. In this incarnation...it's only Karai that's objectified that way.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be one of the loudest people shouting down the inclusion of Venus di Milo. Why? Because one of my favorite subplots of the TMNT is that they're the only four of their species, and they're all guys. There's a "all is suffering" to that aspect of their story that I love.

I love that it makes Raph angry, and Donnie stoic. I love that it doesn't phase Leo and Mike happy to be alive. It gives these characters a depth that's often unspoken and underutilized. It's a human tragedy to non-human characters.

I love it. I eat that stuff for breakfast.

But that doesn't mean I don't want there to be more female representation.
Ninjara.
Mona Lisa.
Irma.
Robin (April's Sister)
Casey's Mom.

These are all characters from other runs of the show who could easily make an appearance.

What about April's Aunt? What about Timothy's parents?
Are there really no female foot soldiers? Seriously?

the first part bothers me, because both april and karai have been proven to be more than that. april, while she is a love interest, doesnt let it define her, shes becoming a fighter, shes defending her family, shes helping her friends, she makes mistakes, shes herself. Karai isnt even a love interest anymore, and shes not just evil. thats karais character, she borders between both. she lives under a false childhood, tries please her father, and presumably soon, will have to deal with struggling with who she really is. That doesnt just sound like good and evil to me.

the way i see people taking this is that ciro put karai and april in to appease the need for females. which is wrong. he included them because they are necessary. they contribute. would aprils aunt really contribute to the turtles? maybe. is it necessary to them? no.

you seem to think im running an anti female campaign. which is false. im rooting for irma and mona lisa to show up. irma i think will develo april and mona lisa could develop raph. another one you didnt mention is angel, who is number 1 on my list of characters who i want to appear.

foot soldiers have generally always looked the same. half of them could be girls, we just dont know. and in terms of kraang, they added ms. campbell, a female kraang droid. if your upset about foot soldiers, atleast notice that.

what i am again trying to make clear is that no, shows are not always going to be equally distributed between males and females. whichever way it leans, if thats how it is to make the show good, then why should it need to be different. tmnt, has been, and is, a show with a more male based cast. thats how it is. the main recurring characters are mostly males. however, in terms of being a protagonist, besides the turtles who the show revolves around, april and karai are definitely next. so yeah, while they couldve switched or added a male for a female here, it still would be uneven.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by NinjaMan

I'm curious, to male Pony fans ask for more male characters in the cast since the show has 6 main female characters and other guest female characters?

I sure didn't, though I was offended that the male ponies who originally had the biggest roles were Sticks and Snails, retarded and unpleasant male stereotypes. Also, that Big Macintosh's vocabulary was dumbed down. The few "straight" male ponies also seem mostly intended as dull love interests for more prominently featured females. It's pretty far down my list of issues with the show, though. Which brings us to:

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

You're not wrong. There should be gender parity in all of our media. We live in a gender parity world, why shouldn't our popular fiction represent that?
Make every male-targeted cartoon pass the Bechdel test, and we can talk about creating gender parity on MLP.

Typical feminist crap. "We've been treated badly for years; therefor you owe us and we should be able to get away with bad things and you shouldn't?" People won't respect your arguments when you play that card.

The reason this gender parity thing is a bad standard is because having more characters isn't necessarily better. Necessarily, having better characters is better. April and even Karai leave a lot to be desired in my opinion, but nevertheless, I'd prefer a few female characters that are well-written; not a bunch that aren't. The same with the male characters, in fact. If you can only do a lot of characters badly, then instead do a few characters well. I might be abl to give a crap about this Bechel Test bit if I was under any delusion that this show was specifically intended to be chock-full of good character development and life lessons, regardless of gender, but I'm not naive. The underlying factor is toy-sales, and I'm sorry, but there, you're fighting a battle you can't win; the best you'll get is the revenge of girl shows under-representing males in kind. The men and women who make toys and shows aren't necessarily stupid or sexist, but you know who usually are? The young boys and girls who consume them.

You're viewing this through adult eyes, and acting like adult males are your enemy here for propagating a sexist situation. We're not, but all of your population census is completely irrelevant next to the statistics of what kids like and don't like at that age. Sorry, but statistically, people are far more interested in the same sex at that age. Sorry, but it's a verifiable trend that female action figures do not sell as well. Sorry, but it's been verified that pink ponies sell better to girls than white ones. So what are you going to do; tell companies they should make less money? Tell a bunch of kids they're stupid? Well good luck with that, but in the meantime, don't go whining to us or Ciro Nielli as though we caused this.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

the first part bothers me, because both april and karai have been proven to be more than that. april, while she is a love interest, doesnt let it define her, shes becoming a fighter, shes defending her family, shes helping her friends, she makes mistakes, shes herself. Karai isnt even a love interest anymore, and shes not just evil. thats karais character, she borders between both. she lives under a false childhood, tries please her father, and presumably soon, will have to deal with struggling with who she really is. That doesnt just sound like good and evil to me.

the way i see people taking this is that ciro put karai and april in to appease the need for females. which is wrong. he included them because they are necessary. they contribute. would aprils aunt really contribute to the turtles? maybe. is it necessary to them? no.

you seem to think im running an anti female campaign. which is false. im rooting for irma and mona lisa to show up. irma i think will develo april and mona lisa could develop raph. another one you didnt mention is angel, who is number 1 on my list of characters who i want to appear.

foot soldiers have generally always looked the same. half of them could be girls, we just dont know. and in terms of kraang, they added ms. campbell, a female kraang droid. if your upset about foot soldiers, atleast notice that.

what i am again trying to make clear is that no, shows are not always going to be equally distributed between males and females. whichever way it leans, if thats how it is to make the show good, then why should it need to be different. tmnt, has been, and is, a show with a more male based cast. thats how it is. the main recurring characters are mostly males. however, in terms of being a protagonist, besides the turtles who the show revolves around, april and karai are definitely next. so yeah, while they couldve switched or added a male for a female here, it still would be uneven.

You seem to be confused.

I want female characters, but I don't want them to be in the main group. Fine, if you think April and Karai as major characters should be sufficient.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE TO BE THE ONLY GIRLS THERE.

I don't want Ninjara or Mona or Oyuki or Angel or Irma to be "main characters". I just want them there because they're rather popular characters who happen to be female and Ciro not considering them to be there for season 2 is huge punch in the gut, considering classics like Mutagen Man and Slash are there.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Tumblr Fans.
Someone used that as a backhand way to refer to female fans in this very thread.

Don't drag me into your little temper tantrum, especially if you're not going to address me by name. My post history here is proof enough I've never been anything short of direct, so don't put words in my mouth.

[Electric]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

Isn't Rahzar just a dog and had the intelligence of an infant? If Ciro can make a change from that original version are you telling me he can't do the same thing for characters like Mona to be included in the show?

And if Bradford was a woman, then turned Dogpound and had Rahzar as a girl, this is bad for the show how?

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Can I ask a question?
Are you a white male between the ages of 13 and 35?

I join you in confusion. If race/gender/orientation/mutation doesn't matter at all, then why does the show have to skew male at all? It seems to me that everyone cares. From the people saying those of us who'd like to see more representation are "making something out of nothing" to those who profess that they "have always seen this as a story about dudes."

1. yuffie, again im not against mona, but yes rahzar has generally been a male. so unless changing him to female adds to they story, then why do it?

2. cafe, you need to quit judging personal character from this. i can make assumptions about you based off the way you post, but it doesnt get anywhere in this post, is rude, immature, and unecessary. reply to posts with a reason other than insult.

3. it really shouldnt matter. if everyone besides the main characters was female and it worked, i could care less. what im saying is the main characters than occur through all incarnations are generally male. no its not "a show about dudes". but the story is based around mostly male characters. and unless we change a turtle or 2 and shredder into females, it will have mostly male characters. and if girls enjoy the story, it should not matter to them, the number of females in the show.

and yuffie to your newer post, if ciro doesnt see them necessary to season 2, that shouldnt bother you. this show will hopefully continue running for awhile and i would bet a lot that in another season or 2 we will get more female characters that they see fit. and im sure when they are added, they will contribute and benefit the show.

[plastroncafe]

Karai's whole identity now is as a pawn. She doesn't know she's a pawn, but that's the whole reason Shredder took her from Yoshi: as weapon of revenge.
He quite literally objectified her.

I'm not saying that's inherently bad, because narratively it's interesting. It gives her a space to grow and change as a character. I'm always interested in characters gaining additional dimension.

But let's not forget that even Ciro said: Good, Evil. Enough.
And that's not enough, it's lazy.

Half the foot soldiers are female? Show, don't tell. That's the first rule of storytelling.

Turtles has always had a male dominated cast, that is true. But just because that's how it used to be doesn't mean that that's how it has to be now. The only reason not to add more female characters, while tacking on more male characters, is the belief that "too many female characters is bad somehow."

Why?

Originally Posted by ElectricN

2. cafe, you need to quit judging personal character from this. i can make assumptions about you based off the way you post, but it doesnt get anywhere in this post, is rude, immature, and unecessary. reply to posts with a reason other than insult.

It's rude and immature of me to ask if you're a white guy? Seriously?

And Powder, if I apologize for not quoting you verbatim, will you apologize for being dismissive and accusatory?

Actually, no. Scratch that. I didn't quote you because I read it in passing and didn't think it what you were saying was important enough to warrant more than an eyeroll. I see that sort of thing all the time: Because tumblr has a sizable female population anything said there is dismissed out of hand as histrionic and hyperbolic. I mean...to be honest I'm pretty surprised it took five pages for someone to whip out the feminazi card.