New Ciro Nieli podcast... the future of Nick TMNT & more!

[SpiderFly]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

That's not really the best analogy. There's nothing "broken" about the show. You represent a small minority of fans who are unhappy with a certain feature. If you go to the manufacturer and say, "hey, I don't like this feature," and they come back with, "Oh, well... we like it. And so do most of our customers," then what purpose does it serve to keep complaining at them about it? At what point do you decide to build the better mousetrap yourself?

Having an opinion is fine. You don't have to agree with everything they do, I mean that's the whole purpose of an open forum after all, is to discuss things. But there's some strong accusations being thrown around here. There's a hard line between "oh I'd like to see more ladies on the show, that would be cool" to "CIRO IS TEH SEXIST!!! BURN HIM!!!"

Your right, it may not be the best analogy. But pushing female characters into a broom closet, for any reason, is detrimental. It's a serious thing that's found everywhere. Most people are unaware of the impact representation, or the lack of it, has on our society. That's why I talk about it. Awareness. And we are building better mousetraps. Look at The Last Airbender. Look at Adventure Time. Look at Rebecca sugar's Steven universe. And I like to promote these shows myself. I can't fight every battle but I can lend my voice to those that do.

I don't think Ciro was intending any sexism but it's still kind of what's happening here.

[marcelangelo]

Originally Posted by Colonel Schrader

anyways, F*** that lame ass podcast with the BS questions.. here is the cowabunga corner interview: http://cowabungacorner.com/content/c...interview-2013

thanks man, great interview on cowabunga corner!

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by SpiderFly

Your right, it may not be the best analogy. But pushing female characters into a broom closet, for any reason, is detrimental. It's a serious thing that's found everywhere. Most people are unaware of the impact representation, or the lack of it, has on our society. That's why I talk about it. Awareness. And we are building better mousetraps. Look at The Last Airbender. Look at Adventure Time. Look at Rebecca sugar's Steven universe. And I like to promote these shows myself. I can't fight every battle but I can lend my voice to those that do.

I don't think Ciro was intending any sexism but it's still kind of what's happening here.

I gotta disagree with that. It's great that there are shows with strong female characters, there should be. But why should every show fit a specific model? And why only women? Does Adventure Time accurately represent Asian people? Does Steven Universe have characters of different sexual orientations? What's the ratio of cats to dogs in Airbender, will my cat be offended watching with me?

Everyone wants to be represented. But that's not possible to do in every work of art. Over PC-ification stifles creativity. Let the work stand on it's own. I never understood how someone's enjoyment of something could be based solely on whether or not they feel personally, accurately portrayed within it.

If you have a story to tell, then go out and tell it. Don't expect someone else to do it for you. Rebecca Sugar is a good example. She worked hard to get where she is, to do the show she wanted to do. Let that inspire other women to do the same. I never liked this, "we shouldn't have to!" thing. You wanna change the world, sister, then get off your butt and do it. Crying sexism at every turn is not the way towards progress.

[Martin]

I loved the interview and I now realize that a lot of my complaints about the show were actually caused by technical difficulties rather than writing mistakes/lazy animators. Tip off my hat to Ciro and the team. I'm truly saddened to see all the hate he is getting. He really doesn't deserve to be treated this way.

[plastroncafe]

It's interesting to me that asking if two named female characters will have a single conversation about something that isn't a male protagonist is...Over PC-ification.

Do we want to go into how Turtles have historically handled race? Because we can do that. It won't be pretty, but we can totally go there if you want.

I'm letting the work stand on its own, and I'm saying that female representation in the Current TMNT Nick cartoon is lacking.

[BubblyShell22]

Plastron, to your earlier comment about April and Karai just being love interests, that's not it at all. April is more than that. She's the link to the outside world for the Turtles, and this season she's being shown as having life outside of the Turtles. Sure, Don has a crush on her, but she hasn't returned his feelings in kind yet and probably just sees him as a friend for now. Karai was seen as a love interest at first, but that's not who she is now. She hates the Turtles and her key role is that she's Splinter's daughter who wants revenge on Splinter for what she believes to be the murder of her mother. So, there's definitely more to those two than just "the love interests."

I find this whole thing to be blown out of proportion. I agree that there aren't a lot of females, but then again, do we really need a lot of females? No. I'd love to see one or two more females, but I want them to contribute to the story rather than just being shoehorned in as I said before. I think Ciro is getting a lot of undeserved hate, and it's really unfair. He wants to create a good show, and frankly we should be thankful that Ciro took the initiative to create this show for us in the first place.

My main flaw I see in this show is Kirby and how he was mutated so suddenly after we just got him back. I felt it was premature for him to get mutated so soon, but then again, there's a bigger story here. Despite that, I have no ill will toward Ciro for doing it because there's a bigger picture here that will be developed with this storyline, though I do feel badly for April.

[plastroncafe]

I've addressed this earlier. I know that April and Karai are more than mere love interests, but again: when they're the only two representative it's easy to draw that conclusion and to make that argument. The solution to side-stepping that argument is to add more, not argue for less.

I agree that things are being blown out of proportion. It was a simple question that he chose to answer in a problematic way.
Nothing was taken out of context. No follow up should be required. He knew we were recording.

[Electric]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

It's interesting to me that asking if two named female characters will have a single conversation about something that isn't a male protagonist is...Over PC-ification.

Do we want to go into how Turtles have historically handled race? Because we can do that. It won't be pretty, but we can totally go there if you want.

I'm letting the work stand on its own, and I'm saying that female representation in the Current TMNT Nick cartoon is lacking.

It's lacking. Yes. Does it need to be fixed? No. Because the show is telling the story of 4 mutant turtles, and unless the writers see fit to have many female characters, there is no need for them.

Females can find relation and enjoyment from male characters and the same with males to female characters. They should not add females just to equal representation. It's not what tmnt is about

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

Plastron, to your earlier comment about April and Karai just being love interests, that's not it at all. April is more than that. She's the link to the outside world for the Turtles, and this season she's being shown as having life outside of the Turtles. Sure, Don has a crush on her, but she hasn't returned his feelings in kind yet and probably just sees him as a friend for now. Karai was seen as a love interest at first, but that's not who she is now. She hates the Turtles and her key role is that she's Splinter's daughter who wants revenge on Splinter for what she believes to be the murder of her mother. So, there's definitely more to those two than just "the love interests."

I find this whole thing to be blown out of proportion. I agree that there aren't a lot of females, but then again, do we really need a lot of females? No. I'd love to see one or two more females, but I want them to contribute to the story rather than just being shoehorned in as I said before. I think Ciro is getting a lot of undeserved hate, and it's really unfair. He wants to create a good show, and frankly we should be thankful that Ciro took the initiative to create this show for us in the first place

Thank you! This is what I've been saying for the past 5 pages. The two females we have are more than just love interest, Are more than good and evil, and are two very important characters. If they add more females, they need to contribute just as every other character does.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

It's lacking. Yes. Does it need to be fixed? No. Because the show is telling the story of 4 mutant turtles, and unless the writers see fit to have many female characters, there is no need for them.

I respectfully disagree.

[Electric]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I've addressed this earlier. I know that April and Karai are more than mere love interests, but again: when they're the only two representative it's easy to draw that conclusion and to make that argument. The solution to side-stepping that argument is to add more, not argue for less.

I agree that things are being blown out of proportion. It was a simple question that he chose to answer in a problematic way.
Nothing was taken out of context. No follow up should be required. He knew we were recording.

He tried to answer it without giving anything away. He didn't answer it problematically. You asked a simple question. He gave a simple answer. If you want to take it any deeper than that, which you have, then you are responsible for asking further into it to get more information from him.

You are really refusing to acknowledge any responsibility in this.

[Electric]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I respectfully disagree.

I respectfully think you are not watching the right show then. The show is about 4 mutant ninja turtles, not 4 mutant turtles that show gender equal representation through the characters they encounter.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

He tried to answer it without giving anything away. He didn't answer it problematically. You asked a simple question. He gave a simple answer. If you want to take it any deeper than that, which you have, then you are responsible for asking further into it to get more information from him.

You are really refusing to acknowledge any responsibility in this.

Because I have no responsibility in this. The interview wasn't transcribed and then printed, it was a recorded podcast. He knew we were recording. I asked a question. As an interviewer I am under no responsibility to require him to clarify his positions. I am under no responsibility to take the conversation deeper. I asked the question, he answered the question.

There's no "context" to be taken out, you can listen to the podcast in full.

That you don't see his response is problematic, is not my problem.

Originally Posted by ElectricN

I respectfully think you are not watching the right show then. The show is about 4 mutant ninja turtles, not 4 mutant turtles that show gender equal representation through the characters they encounter.

It saddens me that you think these things are mutually exclusive.

[Electric]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Because I have no responsibility in this. The interview wasn't transcribed and then printed, it was a recorded podcast. He knew we were recording. I asked a question. As an interviewer I am under no responsibility to require him to clarify his positions. I am under no responsibility to take the conversation deeper. I asked the question, he answered the question.

There's no "context" to be taken out, you can listen to the podcast in full.

That you don't see his response is problematic, is not my problem.



It saddens me that you think these things are mutually exclusive.

Ciro tried to explain something. People took it wrong. If you have no responsibility for asking, he has none for answering.

And it pisses me off that your making a problem out of nothing. You don't get it. Representation isn't always equal. Girls, blacks, Asians, Hispanics etc. Are all not represented enough in tmnt, and by the way, yes those fall under the same category. You're trying to say that unless one of these groups is equal, it's not okay. But in that case they all would. And that would ruin the show if they add characters just for representation. It is unecessary in a cartoon that has been occurring for decades to make everything equally represented. It is a cartoon for enjoyment. If you cannot enjoy it because one group isn't represented to your liking, you should stop watching it and go complain about any other show that does this exact same thing.

[Colonel Schrader]

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

It's interesting to me that asking if two named female characters will have a single conversation about something that isn't a male protagonist is...Over PC-ification.

Do we want to go into how Turtles have historically handled race? Because we can do that. It won't be pretty, but we can totally go there if you want.

I'm letting the work stand on its own, and I'm saying that female representation in the Current TMNT Nick cartoon is lacking.

Again, why does every work of fiction have to satisfy a specific group of people? Can't we have some works that do, and some that don't? You only want this thing in there because it means something to you. Seems a bit selfish, IMO. There are plenty of other groups not "represented" in the turtles. What makes your cause so much more important than any other?

You had the creator in front of you. You could have opened up a civil, adult conversation with him about it. Instead you asked a loaded question, he gave a vague answer, the internet lost it's mind (not your fault) but then you come to an open forum, where he and anyone on his staff can read what you say... and you attack his statement without giving him the benefit of a retort. Not only is that grossly unprofessional from an interviewer/interviewee standpoint, but it's cowardly. You said you didn't want to make this about you, but isn't that exactly what you did when you came to this open, public forum to talk about this single, specific point? And the entire rest of the interview (which was awesome) has now become overshadowed by it.

If I was Ciro, I would be totally offended by your behavior. You fangirled out to his face and then came here to attack the things he said. I'm sorry, but I can't respect that. If you really believed in what you're selling, then you should have had the guts to say so to the man's face.

[Electric]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Again, why does every work of fiction have to satisfy a specific group of people? Can't we have some works that do, and some that don't? You only want this thing in there because it means something to you. Seems a bit selfish, IMO. There are plenty of other groups not "represented" in the turtles. What makes your cause so much more important than any other?

You had the creator in front of you. You could have opened up a civil, adult conversation with him about it. Instead you asked a loaded question, he gave a vague answer, the internet lost it's mind (not your fault) but then you come to an open forum, where he and anyone on his staff can read what you say... and you attack his statement without giving him the benefit of a retort. Not only is that grossly unprofessional from an interviewer/interviewee standpoint, but it's cowardly. You said you didn't want to make this about you, but isn't that exactly what you did when you came to this open, public forum to talk about this single, specific point? And the entire rest of the interview (which was awesome) has now become overshadowed by it.

If I was Ciro, I would be totally offended by your behavior. You fangirled out to his face and then came here to attack the things he said. I'm sorry, but I can't respect that. If you really believed in what you're selling, then you should have had the guts to say so to the man's face.

You keep on saying everything perfectly, geez

[DarkLightDragon]

Just can't give a rest, can you guys?

[Colonel Schrader]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Again, why does every work of fiction have to satisfy a specific group of people? Can't we have some works that do, and some that don't? You only want this thing in there because it means something to you. Seems a bit selfish, IMO. There are plenty of other groups not "represented" in the turtles. What makes your cause so much more important than any other?

You had the creator in front of you. You could have opened up a civil, adult conversation with him about it. Instead you asked a loaded question, he gave a vague answer, the internet lost it's mind (not your fault) but then you come to an open forum, where he and anyone on his staff can read what you say... and you attack his statement without giving him the benefit of a retort. Not only is that grossly unprofessional from an interviewer/interviewee standpoint, but it's cowardly. You said you didn't want to make this about you, but isn't that exactly what you did when you came to this open, public forum to talk about this single, specific point? And the entire rest of the interview (which was awesome) has now become overshadowed by it.

If I was Ciro, I would be totally offended by your behavior. You fangirled out to his face and then came here to attack the things he said. I'm sorry, but I can't respect that. If you really believed in what you're selling, then you should have had the guts to say so to the man's face.

well said!

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

Ciro tried to explain something. People took it wrong. If you have no responsibility for asking, he has none for answering.

And it pisses me off that your making a problem out of nothing. You don't get it. Representation isn't always equal. Girls, blacks, Asians, Hispanics etc. Are all not represented enough in tmnt, and by the way, yes those fall under the same category. You're trying to say that unless one of these groups is equal, it's not okay. But in that case they all would. And that would ruin the show if they add characters just for representation. It is unecessary in a cartoon that has been occurring for decades to make everything equally represented. It is a cartoon for enjoyment. If you cannot enjoy it because one group isn't represented to your liking, you should stop watching it and go complain about any other show that does this exact same thing.

I'm not the one making the problem. I'm the one who asked a question. A single question. People are seeking to hold Ciro responsible for his words.

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Again, why does every work of fiction have to satisfy a specific group of people? Can't we have some works that do, and some that don't? You only want this thing in there because it means something to you. Seems a bit selfish, IMO. There are plenty of other groups not "represented" in the turtles. What makes your cause so much more important than any other?

You had the creator in front of you. You could have opened up a civil, adult conversation with him about it. Instead you asked a loaded question, he gave a vague answer, the internet lost it's mind (not your fault) but then you come to an open forum, where he and anyone on his staff can read what you say... and you attack his statement without giving him the benefit of a retort. Not only is that grossly unprofessional from an interviewer/interviewee standpoint, but it's cowardly. You said you didn't want to make this about you, but isn't that exactly what you did when you came to this open, public forum to talk about this single, specific point? And the entire rest of the interview (which was awesome) has now become overshadowed by it.

If I was Ciro, I would be totally offended by your behavior. You fangirled out to his face and then came here to attack the things he said. I'm sorry, but I can't respect that. If you really believed in what you're selling, then you should have had the guts to say so to the man's face.

There's a whole lot of selfish going around, it seems.

I haven't removed Ciro's ability to access the internet. I haven't banned him from this forum, facebook, or tumblr. He has the exact same wealth of conversation options at his fingertips that I do.

The rest of the interview IS awesome. I'm very proud of my cast mates for making it so, and I'm honored to have had a chance to talk to Ciro.

But...I won't be held responsible for the consequences of his words. They're his words, if he didn't want them to be nitpicked and scrutinized...then he shouldn't have said them.

Again, I don't think that Mr Nieli is a misogyist. I think that the choices he and his staff have made with regard to character design and implementation leaves the show open to attack on several fronts.

[Colonel Schrader]

Booyakasha!!!!