Censorship in Videogames

[TMNT_Guy]

Originally Posted by Peanut

No. Having or wanting sex from a child is not right.

No one so far has said that it is. I think everyone here agrees that it's wrong, I'm glad that you hold your ethics and values so close and I respect you for it, but what everyone is saying, and what this topic is about, is why they don't like censorship.

I don't like censorship because theres no way to know where to draw the line. During the Night Trap controversey of 1993, Senator Joe Liebermann didn't just want to ban game like Night Trap and Mortal Kombat, he wanted to get rid of video game altogether, and almost succeded in this. This might sound rediculous to you and it may seem simple to some people on how far you should censor things, but not to others. Human beings always seem to jump from one extreme to the other.

I'm sure everyone has heard this story, an elemenatary school issued a "Zero tolerence to weapons" policy in response to one of the many unforchanet school shootings. A kid had brought in a LEGO cop toy to show his friends at lunch...and was suspended. The reason? Because the 3-inch cop toy held a gun. Instead of talking to the boy about like they should have or simply takeing the toy away from him, they suspended him for, I think, three weeks.

Thats my reason at least, you can agree or disagree with it.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Peanut

No. Having or wanting sex from a child is not right. I don't give a SH*T how you want to phrase it, twist it, or justify it. Cultural differences, historical reasoning, don't care.

Anyone who says otherwise doesn't have children in their life and therefore can't put themselves in the shoes of someone who has feared for their children's well being, or in some terrible cases had their own kids sexually abused or assaulted. That, or they're absolute f*cking filth and need to be buried.

It's also culturally OK to have children working themselves to the point of death in some parts of the world. Is that alright? Child abuse, whether sexual, physical, mental or whatever, IS NOT RIGHT. There's NOTHING backwards about that line of thinking and if that makes me wrong, or a bad person, or a bigot or racist or culturally insensitive in any way, I can honestly say I welcome it.

Ah, I see. So all those people in third-world nations whose values are different from ours and have been for centuries (and who DO have kids of their own) are wrong because they allow this to take place to THEIR OWN CHILDREN. Because according to OUR moral and ethical standards, it's abuse. To them, it's simply tradition and looking out for the interests of their family by doing what they believe is necessary for its continuation. Sure, that makes sense. Remember we are talking about people who are often below poverty-level, have little resources OTHER than their children, and live in cultures where children (especially girls) are seen as a valuable commodity to improve their family's situation.

What's WRONG with our society is not our views on children- it's the fact that we nearly always INSIST that the rest of the world live by the same rules and moral code. We are the most culturally elitist society in the world, as well as the most intrusively meddling. It's no wonder so many of those same nations hate us for trying to stick our collective noses into their affairs. I may not agree with a father in Afghanistan who yanks his 12 year-old daughter out of school to marry a twenty-year-old man so his family can continue to eat on the bride-price, but that doesn't mean I agree that we should censor media that is as often as not geared toward the standards of a society that reflects similar views. Much of the Japanese anime and manga does exactly that. In some parts of China, they still bind young girls' feet to keep them small and dainty (it's considered attractive) and it often causes painful foot problems later in life, but unless you're a part of that society, neither you nor I have any right to judge how those people live.

And for the record, I HAVE had a child, and though she lives elsewhere, I still care just as much about her welfare, and would hunt down and slowly flay alive anyone who dared to hurt her. I've also dealt with abuse myself, and I can tell you from that perspective ALONE that more often that not, the abuse you speak of comes from WITHIN ONE'S OWN FAMILY. Not an outsider a girl is given to in marriage where it is EXPECTED that she will be having sex (kind of have to in order to have kids) at some point. "Judge not, lest ye be judged." One of the FEW lines of the Bible I actually agree with.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Child brides are for one purpose only, to ensure the girl is still a virgin. Because in those countries many views women as property, a property that is worthless if not "intact".

It's quite an extreme to compare it to A cartoon like Negima.

So true. Many cultures- particularly those that still remain tribal or clannish in nature- still view wives as a form of wealth, and some even practice such horrific (to us) traditions of female circumcision, sewing the genitalia shut, and other such questionable things. Do I find it distasteful, harmful, and unethical? Yes. Would I censor content of a game based on that kind of culture just because I find it "offensive"? No. I would simply not watch or play it. That is all.

As for using Nagima, it was the first one that came to mind, as I happen to enjoy that particular anime. There are others far more extreme, of course, but I'm kind of picky with my anime-viewing.

[Turo602]

Are people seriously defending the abuse and degrading of children for media sakes? I'm all for graphic story telling... but sexualizing children? Really? You guys are ****in' sick.

[Cure]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

grossness

Between this and your homophobia, you're an awful person. Get help.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Turo602

Are people seriously defending the abuse and degrading of children for media sakes? I'm all for graphic story telling... but sexualizing children? Really? You guys are ****in' sick.

Never said I supported the practices themselves-read my posts again- but as for censoring something just because I find it "squicky"? Hell no. Unlike others, I can just ignore it in storytelling, games, and the like. If it ain't my cup'o tea, I just DON'T read/watch/play it!

Originally Posted by Cure

Between this and your homophobia, you're an awful person. Get help.

You, sir, are a troll. I am neither. Good day to you. (And take your own advice, you self-righteous hypocrite!)

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Never said I supported the practices themselves-read my posts again- but as for censoring something just because I find it "squicky"? Hell no. Unlike others, I can just ignore it in storytelling, games, and the like. If it ain't my cup'o tea, I just DON'T read/watch/play it!

That's a f*ck ton of b*llshit. This isn't the promotion of gay marriage or some religious belief, this is wrong. You might as well be saying child pornography is okay as long as you're not watching it... Spare me the BS.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I wasn't even referring to child pornography and the like- I was talking about cultural practices in other countries that while WE may find them objectionable, are NOT the same as abuse. Marrying a young girl off in order for the rest of the family to survive (and which possibly betters HER situation as well by ensuring she has a provider) is nothing like a sick scumbag who takes photos of nude kids for his own perverse pleasure. They are two completely different things. And abuse usually occurs within the home or from a close relative- trust me, I should know. That is NOT the same thing as a girl in her early or mid teens getting married.

Medically speaking, foot-binding and female circumcision are horrible practices, but who are we to call it abuse when it's a cultural tradition that is considered important to the people who do it? Have you LOOKED at some of the body-alterations that are considered "normal" in our own society? Pretty extreme compared to more tribal practices like ritual scarring of boys. I'd even ask if you consider male circumcision "abuse" seeing how it's medically unnecessary, traumatic to the infant, and serves no real purpose other than a religious tradition that is utterly outdated. How are the other things any different? But we don't judge people for that, because it's part of their culture.

[Peanut]

You're so absolutely beyond f*cked that it's sad. Get help.

And TMNT_Guy, there's a clear f*cking divide between showing sexualized minors and not. Don't be insane. It's not the same thing as what you're talking about at all.

I'm so glad I'm on a phone and not at a computer, because there is some seriously unhinged sh*t being spouted in this thread.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Peanut

I'm so glad I'm on a phone and not at a computer, because there is some seriously unhinged sh*t being spouted in this thread.

This threw me...what the difference? Either way you have to read people defending certain despicable things as long as they are cultural norms for someone somewhere.

[Cure]

I think he means he would type a much longer post if he was on his computer.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Cure

I think he means he would type a much longer post if he was on his computer.

Ok. Thanks. That makes sense.

[TMNT_Guy]

Originally Posted by Peanut

And TMNT_Guy, there's a clear f*cking divide

To you, me, and many others it's crystal clear...to others not so much. At the end of the day it all comes down to who's in charge of censoring this sort of thing and what they believe in.

As for defending the game because it's acceptable in another country, they would be right if this game was only avaible in Japan. But, this game is now beling released to a western audience, so of course it's going to be reviewed with our values and ethics.

I understand where your coming from, MsMarvelDuckie. I really like the anime Sailor Moon, I love the shows subjects of friendship, forgiveness, redemption and understanding one another…for others they can’t get past that Sailor Moon wears a short skirt. But I think this subject matter were dealing with is a bit more serious then the length of a skirt.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Peanut

You're so absolutely beyond f*cked that it's sad. Get help.

I'm so glad I'm on a phone and not at a computer, because there is some seriously unhinged sh*t being spouted in this thread.

So we're equating an anime or video game with real-life child porn and other trash? Give me a break. Plenty of NORMAL people (myself included) enjoy those "shonen/shojo" animes, or video games with those types of characters, who would call bloody murder on real-world pedophiles and the like. Like others have said before me, censorship of media has no place in an enlightened civilized world, and yet plenty of you are eager to jump on a niche market for furries, "sexy" girl animes and other forms of entertainment simply because it's offensive TO YOU. Personally, as disgusting and wrong as real-life child abuse and porn, etc is (see above posts- I've spelled out my feelings on that subject already, very clearly), I'm not going to get bent out of shape over someone liking a FICTIONAL story about some kids prancing around in skimpy outfits when I know DARN well (I'd use the other word, but, hey- Mods.) that it's JUST FICTION. Unlike some folks, I'm very capable of separating the two. One is simply harmless fun (You know, because no one is actually hurting kids in these games or mangas or what-not, it's an expression of something we may not understand or agree with, but it's still just entertainment) and the other really IS a moral cesspool. BUUUT.....

There is also a difference between THAT, and what goes on in some Middle-Eastern country where more than half the population lives at or below what we consider poverty level, and marrying off children is often a necessity simply to ensure the survival of said children and their siblings. What WE often forget is that many of these cultures are based on different religious beliefs that feel it's acceptable, even EXPECTED to do so. Has anyone forgotten that even the Bible (I hate going to that book for examples, but...) tells of having multiple wives and such in the Old Testament? I guess no one ever bothered to ask how old some of those wives were? Because the average life-span was MUCH shorter, and girls were married much younger to ensure the largest number of children possible. In many places, that's still true.

The marriage age in many cultures is FAR younger than what WE view as "acceptable". Yet the world goes on, and we call it "abuse" without knowing ANYTHING about it. Yes, it might kind of suck for the kids, having to grow up and literally become adults so early and for such crappy reasons, but up until a couple hundred years ago, Europe and North America were not much different. In some places even here, it still isn't. We as a society have grown accustomed to the attitude of entitled moral superiority over those who still live under conditions we would consider deplorable, but put you in the same situation, and I'd bet none of you would last a week. And you'd be crying "abuse!" while meanwhile native girls and boys would simply shrug and obey their families' wishes for the good of the clan/tribe/whatever. Because it's how they live.

What's disgusting to me is how anyone can equate that under the same umbrella as a child-molester masquerading as a respectable citizen. How many have known family friends, relatives, or even their own close family members who turned out to be monsters in disguise? How many times have we heard news stories about children being sexually assaulted by their own parents in this country? Now, how often to we actually hear the same thing from those supposedly "backward" parts of the world? Think about it. Our own society has become so sick that we see a 12 year-old girl in India getting sent off to marry an older man, and automatically assume the worst of the situation, while completely ignoring the monsters lurking in our own neighborhoods. Hypocrisy at its finest.

[Peanut]

I read nothing beyond the first sentence. People who like those kinds of games and anime aren't normal. Notice how weirdos like you are the only ones who complain about this kind of censorship. That's all that needs to be said. You're a creep and digging as hard as possible into bullsh*t excuses to defend this kind of thing is what people like you do. You stretch and stretch as hard as possible, because you know you're f*cked and your mental instability won't allow you to admit it.

If for ANY reason you can justify the existence of sexual depictions of children, real or imagined, seek help, or jump in the ocean.

[TMNT_Guy]

Yeah, I fail to understand what any of that has to do with this topic, MsMarvelDuckie. It seems you're accepting to all cultures except for the one you're a part of.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Peanut

I read nothing beyond the first sentence. People who like those kinds of games and anime aren't normal. Notice how weirdos like you are the only ones who complain about this kind of censorship. That's all that needs to be said. You're a creep and digging as hard as possible into bullsh*t excuses to defend this kind of thing is what people like you do. You stretch and stretch as hard as possible, because you know you're f*cked and your mental instability won't allow you to admit it.

If for ANY reason you can justify the existence of sexual depictions of children, real or imagined, seek help, or jump in the ocean.

You read only ONE sentence, huh? Ah, I get it. You're a self-righteous ultra-conservative fanatic who feels justified in stamping out other peoples' freedoms of expression (First Amendment!) over anything you disagree with on the grounds of your supposed moral superiority. Got it.

So.... Not normal, huh? Married for 14 years, had one child, work a 40-hr week and pay my bills, enjoy going out to eat, movies, cuddling at home with my other half to watch TV, and read, write, listen to music, or play RPG's. Sounds pretty normal to me. I don't PERSONALLY watch those kinds of animes (Negima is about as risqué as I'll usually get, though I'm more partial to fare like FMA, Wolf's Reign, and Akira) but I'm not about to dictate what others enjoy, either. YOU, apparently, are. And if that makes me a weirdo, then so be it. I'm pretty sure my hubby would utterly disagree with you, however, and since we've been together for going on 17 years, he should know. I do NOT condone or approve of ANY kind of child porn/abuse (as said before, I've had personal experience with such- I doubt many of you can say the same) but I don't approve of censorship in any form, either. That doesn't make me sick- it means I'm SANE. I dislike ANYTHING that is taken to extremes, whether it is "moral superiority", or "perverse entertainment". Furries, anime lolicon, or things like that don't bother me. Real-life child porn DOES. See the difference? No? Maybe YOU are the one who needs help, if that's the case.

The REAL creeps are the ones who feel the need to push their own moral pseudo-religious views on the rest of the world just because they are uncomfortable with a small niche form of escapist entertainment that harms no one. THAT, sir, is the very definition of mentally unstable! Also, about jumping in the ocean- lead the way!

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by TMNT_Guy

Yeah, I fail to understand what any of that has to do with this topic, MsMarvelDuckie. It seems you're accepting to all cultures except for the one you're a part of.

My point here is that we can't judge other peoples' ways of life, when there is so much wrong with our own society. And I DO accept all cultures, including my own- but I'm severely jaded and cynical when it comes to our own supposed moral "enlightenment". My motto is "live and let live". Or to put it another way, I live by the Wiccan Creed of "An it harm none, do as ye' will." Words I think more people should take to heart, to be honest.

[Jester]

But sexualizing children in media like this game normalizes it to a point that it COULD hurt someone. Some people will see it as a justification of their feelings/behavior.

[Powder]

Arguing with Duckie is a lost cause. Abandon thread.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Jester

But sexualizing children in media like this game normalizes it to a point that it COULD hurt someone. Some people will see it as a justification of their feelings/behavior.

You know, they had this same argument about games back in the 90's, only then it was violence. And those arguments don't hold water even now. I'm old enough to remember that mess, and it was just as ludicrous then as it is now. Video games and cartoons do NOT make people do those things. Being mentally unbalanced and having a faulty moral compass (compared to the rest of society- I won't go into what I think of morality in general here, it would fill a novel) DOES. I even remember the D&D scandal of the 80's, and THAT was just as stupid and inane.

Thinking that games and such make people do horrible things is like saying that watching the news or reading comics does so. It's a cop-out excuse. Simple as that. To this day, there have been NO cases of reported violence, suicide, or abuse that were definitively caused by ANY form of media. The people involved in all such supposed cases all had something in common- mental illness and/or drugs/alcohol. Check the history on the subject. No matter how the right-wing conservatives and watch-dog groups like to spin things, games and other media don't make ANYONE do ANYTHING. They just show what already exists in the world. That is all they do. Art imitates life, not the other way around.