Turtles Forever: a direct insult to the old 1987 cartoon?

[sdp]

Ironically they made all OT turtles act out like 2k3 Mikey, who was whiny and idiotic most of the time, not to mention annoying. I agree that TF was made to celebrate all things turtle related, I never expected it and I think someone confirmed that it was made out of Mirages wallet for the anniversary. They went through great lengths to find the original concept art and hyped it up only to slap fans of the original show in the face with their portrayal, of them. The explanation of "their turtles from a wackier universe in the turtleverse not the OT" fails since the fact that its the original turtles that makes the crossover cool. I have to think if it was Peter who suggested all those things to make fun of them and the crew just went along with him. I always imagined OT Leonardo throwing a pizza and then attacking the foot with the 2k3 turtles, instead we saw OT Leo throwing a pizza only to keep making jokes be captured and then be saved by the 2k3 turtles. I've always been surprised by the lack of anger in this forum about this and yet this fandom complains about such petty things instead.

Anyway, how will the 2k3 turtles be remembered in 10 years? Probably not very well, even though the show lasted for so long and having lots of toys and videogames being on the Fox Box and then 4Kids TV hurt it a lot. Not many people are even aware that it exists, and many retrospectives "by geeks" skip the 2k3 show in their research or just make a quick note. We've seen the OT turtles in the Nick show and we might see them again. I bet you the 2k3 turtles won't get that chance in the show. Nick only bought the rights to the show because it came with the deal and they're glad no other channel can air the show now. We'll need a company like shout who is interested in releasing the show for it to ever get a DVD release since Nick won't give it one. Truly a shame since 2k3 is IMO the BTAS of the turtles franchise because of Laird being in charge and I don't see us getting another animated show like it.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by turtle1237

I think the tickle ray gun in the end was too much for showing suppose how lame 80's Shredder was. He didnt even do anything but wait around and let 2003 Shredder do everything pretty much.

OT Shredder at his best was a real threat, from almost cooking the earth, to leading invaded Rock armys, to pretty much making Newton's law invailed.

He even got one over Dredd in the last season. He was a force to recon with. Yeah he may not of been scary like 2003 Shredder, but with his robot armies, he was a very good villian.

Shredder was portrayed perfectly. 80's Shredder hovered between being an incompetent goofball or a real threat depending on the episode. Shredder obviously has nothing on 2k3 Shredder who actually was a real threat inside his suit.

This is portraying the characters accurately. I don't know how you can watch Seasons 3-5 where 80's Shredder was always tripping over himself or getting defeated by having a pizza thrown in his face or whining when Bebop/Rocksteady were failing him for the hundreth time.

There are some episodes where 80's Shredder is written more competent than usual and he's a real threat, but don't act like he wasn't treated as a goofy villain especially in the middle seasons of the show.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Pterobat

Well, I'll have you know that my OT cred is off the charts. Don't you dare question it!

Anyway, being angry that Turtles Forever didn't get every tiny detail right, and reducing your rebuttal to the special to a checklist, is not seeing the forest for the trees.

And debating using proverbs is dumb. Just because my rebuttal includes a checklist doesn't mean it was reduced to one.

In case you weren't aware, forests are made of trees. Just as I have never seen a pink tree, I will question why a pink tree exists in someone's drawing of a forest, even if it is only one. The OT Turtles crying under pressure is a pink tree. A little error like making them all pizza-obsessed is forgivable on the grounds that it's at least a misinterpretation of the truth; that bit is not. It's either pure elitism or an error out of nowhere.

Originally Posted by Pterobat

No, TF can't be completely accurate to the original cartoon because it's NOT the original cartoon, but an imitation filtered through a different production team.

Naturally, but I can think of many, many ways to do it better than they did, and for the record, the portrayal they gave of the OT was only the tip of the iceberg in terms of that movie's poor writing.

Originally Posted by Pterobat

However, it's an imitation for the purpose of tribute. The special is here to have fun with both universes, and Mirage, too. It's a tribute to all things TMNT.

And sometimes, believe it or not, people mock the things they like. Shocking on the internet, I know. Poking fun at the OT and playing up the contrasts between it and the 4Kids Turtles is'nt "bashing", it's playful, fun mockery.

HOW IS MAKING THE OT LOOK WEAK CONSIDERED PLAYFUL, FUN MOCKERY?! Playing up the differences between the two is absolutely no excuse when that difference didn't even exist. And I won't buy that adapting something is an uphill battle as the excuse for why they needed to have that crying bit in, nor the scene where Krang joins the fight against Ch'rel, but accomplishes absolutely nothing; considering they could have left them out and had less of an uphill battle.

Originally Posted by Pterobat

I'd also like to add that we still don't know how popular or well-remembered the 4Kids series will be in the past,

Since when is past a synonym for future?

Originally Posted by Pterobat

because it's only a decade old--not long enough yet for the wheel of nostalgia to start turning for 00s kids.

Plus, the vast majority of kids who watched it then didn't know Mirage from nothing, so calling the 4Kids series less successful 'cause it was derivative of Mirage doesn't hold water. Most of the viewers didn't know these were adaptations of older comics.

Another gross misinterpretation of my views. At no point did I say the 4Kids series was "less successful" because if was derivative of Mirage. Indeed; it was a success, and the more well-received parts of it were the ones that followed Mirage. Generally, people liked seeing a darker, tougher, and more adventurous version of the Turtles, as well as the expanded plot; even if they didn't know it was drawn from Mirage. Substantially less liked Shredder being an alien, the Ninja Tribunal, Fast Forward, or Back to the Sewers.

What I actually said is that, as an adult who has access to the Mirage series--and now more people than ever do--the 4Kids series seems less essential to me; there arguably aren't enough differences between the two to justify its own existence, and many of those differences that do exist, aren't for the better.

Edit: Now to clarify, my old post about everything wrong with the movie:

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

It's not just the portrayal of the Fred Wolf turtles that bothers me about the movie; almost all aspects of it feel like a bad fanfiction.

For example, contrived deux ex machinas for warping. I don't remember anything as lame as a dimensional teleporter made from a flashlight (nor Don saying science relied on guesswork and positive thinking to make such things) or a galactic Google search with a built-in retrieval beam in the OT, but even if they were, either they shouldn't have still worked in the 2003 universe, or the latter should have at least given the OT villains some sort of leg up, instead of just being used to bring back Ch'rel and humiliate them. Also, how is it that OT Don can build a working teleporter from a flashlight, but somehow the lasers he built on the Turtlevan out of parts from Stockman's lab suddenly don't hurt villains? What possible excuse is there for that?

Also, plotholes; so many I'll count them:
1) How did the OT Turtles get out of the Technodrome when it warped to the 4Kids universe?
2) How did Karai know that Ch'rel was back, underground, in a giant Christmas ornament?
3) For that matter, why was Karai still loyal to him? I thought that bit had been closed as of the end of the Teenage Mutant Naruto Turtles arc, and then proven to have stayed closed when she fought against the cyber Shredder; knowing he was Ch'rel's ordered successor.
4) Why was Ch'rel impressed by mutagen? Utroms knew about it, as well as how to make it, for a long time.
5) Where the shell is everyone in the Mirage universe?! I've been to New York, and nowhere were the streets just barren at night, but even if I could buy that in that one place, the people were just sleeping, the Technodrome rampaging would have woken them up. There wasn't even any evidence of the commotion caused by them fleeing it, and in New York, that many people could not have fled all at once without many of them being gridlocked.
6) Finally, and I get that this is meta, but what was Ch'rel's plan supposed to be? Since the only way for him to understand that one universe inspires another is by knowing it's all fiction, and he hoped to erase it all by killing the Turtles, what was stopping Eastman and Laird from just stopping him from doing it? Was he aware of them? Could he come out and kill them? Were they aware that someone was alive in their graphic novel and it was trying to rewrite itself?

Again, I know this is meta and you might argue I shouldn't be thinking about it, but I retort that the writers of the movie shouldn't have gone there for that very reason. Their whole cosmology is just dumb, and in my opinion, they didn't achieve Rule of Funny or Rule of Cool nearly enough to make that forgivable; in practice they just came off as annoying and cocky.

[Jeff]

Yo...does anyone know what the words "homage," "parody," or to an extent "roast" mean? Those words all describe how the 87 Turtles were handled in Forever and those words also are positives, and are done with respect. Just like you could tell your buddy to go **** himself while giving him a hug...87 and 2K3 are buddies. If the 87 Turtles were really insulted by 2K3, then 2K3 were DEFINITELY insulted by the Mirage Turtles. A lot of people look at the 87 series with rose colored glasses (and I DO have a lot of nostalgic love for it) but all in all, it was a silly show (which is fine, given its demographic and lasting success) but it was also...not a very good show. All Forever did was poke fun at the cliches that were rampant in 87.

And at the end of the day the ultimate insult from one franchise to another is how Nickelodeon insults 2K3 by pretending it didn't ****ing exist. From the tiny cameo in "Wormquake!" to its complete lack of any merchandise, especially a DVD release of the last season.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Jeff

And at the end of the day the ultimate insult from one franchise to another is how Nickelodeon insults 2K3 by pretending it didn't ****ing exist.

That's not really fair to say, at least not on a whole. IDW has been making use of quite a few 4kids characters.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Powder

That's not really fair to say, at least not on a whole. IDW has been making use of quite a few 4kids characters.

Hun and Angel.

That's it. I can't think of one other character or storyline or anything that was spawned in 2K3 that IDW uses. It seems like Nick just gives free reign to IDW, since IDW makes up their own characters, etc. I mean as far as the show and all other merchandising goes. From action figures (87 rereleases, to Classics) to every other tchotchke emblazoned with the 87 series. It does make sense, since their primary market for the Nick show is kids, and the primary market for 87 is their parents, or parent-aged counterparts, and the fans that were kids around 2k3...are in an awkward kid-less limbo (I guess????)...but what else does 2K3 have still? Ice Cream truck popsicles?

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by Jeff

And at the end of the day the ultimate insult from one franchise to another is how Nickelodeon insults 2K3 by pretending it didn't ****ing exist. From the tiny cameo in "Wormquake!" to its complete lack of any merchandise, especially a DVD release of the last season.

I love that Nick completely ignores 2k3. After the insult that is Turtles Forever belittling the OT, they kind of deserve it.

Thank you Nick.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

I love that Nick ignores 2k3. After the insult that is Turtles Forever belittling the OT, they kind of deserves it.

Thank you Nick.

I tried being diplomatic, but even if they did insult 87 (which....they didn't), I'm glad, because 87 does NOT deserve the praise it gets. If anything they get a handshake for giving the franchise lasting power, but other than that...the show sucks.

[Shark_Blade]

The show is the pinnacle of the series tbh. Even recently for example, when delivering news of Megan Fox casted as April, they put OT April pics for comparison, not 2k3 April.

[Technogeek29]

This is going nowhere fast.

On that note Nick took several ideas from 2k3 but unlike the OT where its obvious. 2k3's are mostly subtle. In Mirage Leo and Karai we're business partners at best. 2k3 introduce that she was something more to Leo. The Purple dragons were one off characters who only appeared twice in Mirage. Their reacurring theme is from 2k3 when most people didn't know and for that matter didn't care who they were. Utroms while important were never really huge in the TMNT. 2k3, Nick and IDW have changed that.

[Powder]

I like how virtually every person speaking in favor of the OT in this thread is making a pissing contest of the matter. What little hate the series does get is due to you guys. You're so annoying.

Originally Posted by Jeff

Hun and Angel.

That's it. I can't think of one other character or storyline or anything that was spawned in 2K3 that IDW uses. It seems like Nick just gives free reign to IDW, since IDW makes up their own characters, etc.

Pretty sure Bishop is on the way and I wanna say there was someone else eluded to though it escapes me at the moment. I'm sure in due time it will give more reference to the book. I hope so, anyway. IDW doesn't have free reign, though. I know at the very least they're not allowed to use Nick series characters so I imagine there are other policies at work.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

The show is the pinnacle of the series tbh. Even recently for example, when delivering news of Megan Fox casted as April, they put OT April pics for comparison, not 2k3 April.

i'm being presumptuous, but i have a feeling time will prove me right in saying that comparing what you're trying to say is better than what im trying to say is better to the upcoming movie does NOT help your argument, like...at all.

[1987]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

I love that Nick completely ignores 2k3. After the insult that is Turtles Forever belittling the OT, they kind of deserve it.

Thank you Nick.

totally agree with u on that. i have nothing against the 2k3 series i thought it was an all around good show, but after the way they treated the ot in "turtles forever", almost makes me wanna boycott it. i did see the nick "wormquake" ot clip on youtube, much more of a respectable portrayal of the ot than 2k3 did. maybe i can find some good in the nick series after all.

i loved the part when mirage comics leo sticks up for the ot turtles near the end of "turtles forever" because with those writers they couldnt possibly defend themselves, but then i was shocked how they belittled comic shredder by defeating him so quickly with garbage.

[Powder]

They didn't "belittle" Mirage Shredder, they're just making a joke of the fact he was beaten in the very first issue, you know, quickly disposed of. Jesus.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Powder

Pretty sure Bishop is on the way and I wanna say there was someone else eluded to though it escapes me at the moment. I'm sure in due time it will give more reference to the book. I hope so, anyway. IDW doesn't have free reign, though. I know at the very least they're not allowed to use Nick series characters so I imagine there are other policies at work.

I can agree with all of that. IDW is doing an exceptional job at incorporating all sorts of goodies from all incarnations into the story. I do have to ask, though...if some people think Turtles forever took a **** all over 87 turtles, how do you feel about how IDW has handled characters like Bebop and Rocksteady, or Krang? They essentially changed everything about Krang...does that mean that they disrespect the source material?

And to further prove my point that Forever didn't disrespect 87...can you remind me again who ultimately saved the multiverse in Forever? Oh yeah...it was Bebop and Rocksteady.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by 1987

i loved the part when mirage comics leo sticks up for the ot turtles near the end of "turtles forever" because with those writers they couldnt possibly defend themselves, but then i was shocked how they belittled comic shredder by defeating him so quickly with garbage.

"those writers" also wrote that Leo. js

[Technogeek29]

Originally Posted by 1987

totally agree with u on that. i have nothing against the 2k3 series i thought it was an all around good show, but after the way they treated the ot in "turtles forever", almost makes me wanna boycott it. i did see the nick "wormquake" ot clip on youtube, much more of a respectable portrayal of the ot than 2k3 did. maybe i can find some good in the nick series after all.

i loved the part when mirage comics leo sticks up for the ot turtles near the end of "turtles forever" because with those writers they couldnt possibly defend themselves, but then i was shocked how they belittled comic shredder by defeating him so quickly with garbage.

That was more of a joke at how Shredder isn't a big part of the Mirage universe. Just the aftermath of killing him is.

[CyberCubed]

LOL @ people saying Nick ignores 2k3.

Karai being Shredder's adoptive daughter, Raph smacking Mikey, Hun and Angel in IDW, are all from the 2k3 series.

I'm also sure we'll see more 2k3 characters who up as Nick and IDW progress. IDW already hinted at Bishop appearing eventually.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

LOL @ people saying Nick ignores 2k3.

Karai being Shredder's adoptive daughter, Raph smacking Mikey, Hun and Angel in IDW, are all from the 2k3 series.

I'm also sure we'll see more 2k3 characters who up as Nick and IDW progress. IDW already hinted at Bishop appearing eventually.

i was more commenting on the merchandising aspect.

[Pterobat]

Originally Posted by Jeff

Yo...does anyone know what the words "homage," "parody," or to an extent "roast" mean? Those words all describe how the 87 Turtles were handled in Forever and those words also are positives, and are done with respect. Just like you could tell your buddy to go **** himself while giving him a hug...87 and 2K3 are buddies. If the 87 Turtles were really insulted by 2K3, then 2K3 were DEFINITELY insulted by the Mirage Turtles. A lot of people look at the 87 series with rose colored glasses (and I DO have a lot of nostalgic love for it) but all in all, it was a silly show (which is fine, given its demographic and last success) but it was also...not a very good show. All Forever did was poke fun at the cliches that were rampant in 87.

And at the end of the day the ultimate insult from one franchise to another is how Nickelodeon insults 2K3 by pretending it didn't ****ing exist. From the tiny cameo in "Wormquake!" to its complete lack of any merchandise, especially a DVD release of the last season.

This one up here gets it.

Turtles Forever not being 100% like the actual cartoon isn't the point. The point is whether the special's actual intention succeeded. That intention wasn't to offer an exact duplicate of the OT, but to have a tribute to the franchise and a fun riff on the basic contrasts between the two cartoons.

The crying thing was the only really "off" thing for the OT Turtles. The rest worked for me, and ditto for the portrayal of the villains.

And as I said, it'll take some time before we can be sure that the 4Kids show sinks or swims in the collective cultural memory. It could be like how Transformers fans claimed Beast Wars would never be remembered, but then it's survived and gotten several homages.

And even if the Mirage material formed the springboard or most of the 4Kids series' best arcs and episodes, the changes are still enough that the 4Kids version stands out and is easy to imagine standing the test of time, instead of being considered redundant because of the Mirage comic; the latter's still a niche work that didn't have as much public exposure as a kid's TV series.