What's your order - Page 3

*heretic888* · 04-22-2003, 10:39 AM

Oh, by the way, I emailed TMNT webguru Dan Berger about this lil' ol' thing (concerning the 'validity' of the Palladium RPG) and these were his responses:

Q: [ So, is...] the description of the turtles in the Palladium RPG not the 'official' one??? I mean, with like Mike having so and so for Physical Prowess and Raph having so and so for Physical Strength??

A: It's official as it gets. Since neither Kevin nor Peter were game designers, they let the experts at Palladium make the game mechanic decisions.

Q: Did Kevin and Peter basically agree with the interpretations of the characters in that book???

A: Yes.

'Nuff sed.

*JameO* · 04-22-2003, 10:51 AM

Raphael
Michealangelo
Donatello
Leonardo

**Karpo_007** · 04-22-2003, 10:53 AM

Right, that was it in 1986.

*heretic888* · 04-22-2003, 11:01 AM

It was in '85 actually.

Besides, when they were all at the farmhouse, Mike engaged in intense self-training for about one year (age 15 to 16). More than likely that would result in a dramatic incease in his skills... since he had not been training all that hard beforehand.

Of course, Leo did some training too... mostly 'hunting' in the woods. Raph and Don kinda slacked off.

**Karpo_007** · 04-22-2003, 11:03 AM

Yeah, but before you said the RPG describes Mikey talented and Leo skilled, what is the diffrence?

*heretic888* · 04-22-2003, 11:15 AM

Well.... I've been lookin' over the RPG and I see it like this.

One of the attributes every character has is Physical Prowess (PP). This is basically a character's NATURAL agility and dexterity, reflexes and precision, accuracy and grace of movement, etc etc etc.... in other words, its how well they can use their body: physical prowess.

Now... the attribute is basically the character's NATURAL agility and dexterity. With very few exceptions, the PP can not be increased (the only way to increase it is by taking General Athletics and/or Gymnastics). A character with a naturally high PP (like the TMNT) will receive bonuses to Strike, Parry, and Dodge. An example would be Mike, who has a PP of 24 (which is about as high as you can get). Even if he had NO ninja or athletic training, he would still receive a +5 to Strike, Parry, and Dodge. He is, very simply, a natural athlete and natural fighter. Leo, having a PP of 20 (which is still quite impressive), would receive a bonus of +3 to his combat skills (Strike, Parry, Dodge).

Now.... when they say Leo is 'skilled' I think they are referring not to natural ability but dedicated training. In the game, Mike's bonuses are +7 to Strike, and +9 to Parry/Dodge. That means he got an additional +2 to Strike, and +4 to Dodge/Parry from his ninja training. Leo, on the other hand, has a +6 to Strike and +8 to Parry/Dodge. He got an additional +3 to Strike and +5 to Parry/Dodge from his training. In other words, Leo by training harder than Mike, got MORE out of his training.

The major reason Mike is the 'best fighter' in the game is because of his sheer natural ability. Leo, who is also extemely talented, gets more of his fighting ability from dedicated training.

During that year in the farmhouse, when Mike was training intensely, he most likely saw a dramatic increase in his skills, as he had not been traiing that hard beforehand. Think about it.

Laterz.

**Karpo_007** · 04-22-2003, 11:24 AM

Well Now we know the pofiles were probably written by Eastman and Laird, but I think the numbers were done by palladium.

Now, in the comics it is Leo who is presented as the best fighter [IE fights with Ooku Saki] but like said before, no one can be really said to be the most skilled or talneted, it all depends on individual situations.

I guess Leo is shown the most because he is the "big brother" and most responsible one.

*heretic888* · 04-22-2003, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Well Now we know the pofiles were probably written by Eastman and Laird, but I think the numbers were done by palladium.

Oh, I think you're definitely right about that. But, if either Kevin or Peter had a major problem with how the characters were portrayed, you'd think they'd say samething. Dan told me that they 'authorized' everything and were initially very involved with the RPG books (before 'turtlemania' began that is), although the Palladium folks did all the game mechanics.

Even if we just look at the profiles themselves, we see interesting notes:

"as a fighter, Raphael is neither the most skillful (Leonardo is better) or the most talented (Michaelangelo is phenomenal), but he is the most deadly Ninja Turtles because of his raw energy."

"Michaelangelo also likes rough and tumble stuff and gets into a good fight almost as much as Raphael. He enjoys sparring, and he and Raphael do a lot of this. He doesn't work as hard at the art of ninjitsu as any of the others (except perhaps Donatello), but his naturally high physical prowess more than makes up for his lack of discipline."

Quote:

Now, in the comics it is Leo who is presented as the best fighter [IE fights with Ooku Saki

I think him fighting Saki had less to do with his skill and more to do with establishing his 'role' as leader.

Quote:

but like said before, no one can be really said to be the most skilled or talneted, it all depends on individual situations.

Well, I think it can be said that one of more skilled and/or talented than another.... but every situation is completely unique. Sometimes, the dice are just rolled against you regardless of how good you are.

Quote:

I guess Leo is shown the most because he is the "big brother" and most responsible one.

Well, he is the leader and the stereotypical 'warrior' of the group. But that has less to do with his skill and more to do with his position in the family.

**Karpo_007** · 04-22-2003, 01:15 PM

True that, no matter what Universe, Leo is always presented as the Leader of the group. and therefor making all the important decicions and fights...

Well Eastman and Laird authorized "Secret of the ooze" to, but I don't think neither of them likes it very much... I´still think that one cannot be shown being actually better at fighting than other, When Raph gets in berserk, he is the one beating most enemies, but still not the best fighter.

*heretic888* · 04-22-2003, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Well Eastman and Laird authorized "Secret of the ooze" to, but I don't think neither of them likes it very much...

Yes, but you have to remember that the Palladium book was created at a time when there were no other licensing products set aside the comic. Also, Pete and Kevin didn't have to make any 'compromises' with the Palladium people to get their stuff put out. Besides, Dan told me that they agreed with the RPG's basic interpretation of their characters and that it was 'official as it gets'.

Quote:

I´still think that one cannot be shown being actually better at fighting than other, When Raph gets in berserk, he is the one beating most enemies, but still not the best fighter.

That 'berserker rage' deal doesn't work on very skilled opponents.

**Karpo_007** · 04-22-2003, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heretic888

That 'berserker rage' deal doesn't work on very skilled opponents.

Well it was Raph who beat the foot elite. So he can definetly hold is own as well as the others.

*heretic888* · 04-22-2003, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Well it was Raph who beat the foot elite. So he can definetly hold is own as well as the others.

If I recall correctly, Raph was about to get killed and Leo barely saved him in time.

**Karpo_007** · 04-22-2003, 01:31 PM

No, Raph killed the foot eilte beofre any of the others came there. I believe you were talkin about "Return to NY".

*heretic888* · 04-22-2003, 01:37 PM

Oh, you mean against that one guy?? Well, he wasn't exactly 'berserkering' there....

**Karpo_007** · 04-22-2003, 03:20 PM

No he wasn't, that goes to show he can fight with skill to.

*Tetsu Deinonychus* · 04-22-2003, 09:44 PM

I still say all the TMNT are equal!

But, anyway in my experience "most skilled" tends to beat "most talented".

*heretic888* · 04-23-2003, 08:15 AM

Well, not all TMNT are equal in all areas, Tetsu. Just like in real life... some people are stronger, or more intelligent, or more agile, or whatnot than others. That does NOT mean they are 'better' or 'superior' only that they are not 'equal' in everything. Unity in diversity.

As for skill vs. talent.... well, that's dependent on the individual circumstance. The only real reason Mike is a better 'fighter' than Leo in the RPG is because of his sheer natural ability. Some people are just like that: they have so much natural ability that they don't require that much training to be very competent fighters.

Of course, with enough training and determination, any amount of natural ability can be eventually overcome...... but Mike seemed to have stopped his 'slacking off' when they came to Northampton.

*Tetsu Deinonychus* · 04-23-2003, 08:40 AM

I didn't mean equal in all areas. I meant equal total. If you add up their various different strengths and weaknesses they end up equal but for different reasons.

*heretic888* · 04-23-2003, 08:44 AM

If you mean who is more 'useful', then they are more or less equal.....

~~Tokka-B~~ · 04-23-2003, 08:57 AM

Very interesting posts here......

04-22-2003, 10:39 AM	#41
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	ahem Oh, by the way, I emailed TMNT webguru Dan Berger about this lil' ol' thing (concerning the 'validity' of the Palladium RPG) and these were his responses: Q: [ So, is...] the description of the turtles in the Palladium RPG not the 'official' one??? I mean, with like Mike having so and so for Physical Prowess and Raph having so and so for Physical Strength?? A: It's official as it gets. Since neither Kevin nor Peter were game designers, they let the experts at Palladium make the game mechanic decisions. Q: Did Kevin and Peter basically agree with the interpretations of the characters in that book??? A: Yes. 'Nuff sed. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

04-22-2003, 10:51 AM	#42
JameO Mad Scientist Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,753	Raphael Michealangelo Donatello Leonardo __________________ "Lie, Cheat & Steal, Atleast I'm Honest"

04-22-2003, 11:01 AM	#44
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hmmm It was in '85 actually. Besides, when they were all at the farmhouse, Mike engaged in intense self-training for about one year (age 15 to 16). More than likely that would result in a dramatic incease in his skills... since he had not been training all that hard beforehand. Of course, Leo did some training too... mostly 'hunting' in the woods. Raph and Don kinda slacked off. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

04-22-2003, 11:15 AM	#46
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hmmm Well.... I've been lookin' over the RPG and I see it like this. One of the attributes every character has is Physical Prowess (PP). This is basically a character's NATURAL agility and dexterity, reflexes and precision, accuracy and grace of movement, etc etc etc.... in other words, its how well they can use their body: physical prowess. Now... the attribute is basically the character's NATURAL agility and dexterity. With very few exceptions, the PP can not be increased (the only way to increase it is by taking General Athletics and/or Gymnastics). A character with a naturally high PP (like the TMNT) will receive bonuses to Strike, Parry, and Dodge. An example would be Mike, who has a PP of 24 (which is about as high as you can get). Even if he had NO ninja or athletic training, he would still receive a +5 to Strike, Parry, and Dodge. He is, very simply, a natural athlete and natural fighter. Leo, having a PP of 20 (which is still quite impressive), would receive a bonus of +3 to his combat skills (Strike, Parry, Dodge). Now.... when they say Leo is 'skilled' I think they are referring not to natural ability but dedicated training. In the game, Mike's bonuses are +7 to Strike, and +9 to Parry/Dodge. That means he got an additional +2 to Strike, and +4 to Dodge/Parry from his ninja training. Leo, on the other hand, has a +6 to Strike and +8 to Parry/Dodge. He got an additional +3 to Strike and +5 to Parry/Dodge from his training. In other words, Leo by training harder than Mike, got MORE out of his training. The major reason Mike is the 'best fighter' in the game is because of his sheer natural ability. Leo, who is also extemely talented, gets more of his fighting ability from dedicated training. During that year in the farmhouse, when Mike was training intensely, he most likely saw a dramatic increase in his skills, as he had not been traiing that hard beforehand. Think about it. Laterz. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

04-22-2003, 01:37 PM	#54
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hmmm Oh, you mean against that one guy?? Well, he wasn't exactly 'berserkering' there.... __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

04-22-2003, 10:53 AM	#43
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Right, that was it in 1986.

04-22-2003, 11:03 AM	#45
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Yeah, but before you said the RPG describes Mikey talented and Leo skilled, what is the diffrence?

04-22-2003, 11:24 AM	#47
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Well Now we know the pofiles were probably written by Eastman and Laird, but I think the numbers were done by palladium. Now, in the comics it is Leo who is presented as the best fighter [IE fights with Ooku Saki] but like said before, no one can be really said to be the most skilled or talneted, it all depends on individual situations. I guess Leo is shown the most because he is the "big brother" and most responsible one.

04-22-2003, 01:15 PM	#49
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	True that, no matter what Universe, Leo is always presented as the Leader of the group. and therefor making all the important decicions and fights... Well Eastman and Laird authorized "Secret of the ooze" to, but I don't think neither of them likes it very much... I´still think that one cannot be shown being actually better at fighting than other, When Raph gets in berserk, he is the one beating most enemies, but still not the best fighter.

04-22-2003, 01:31 PM	#53
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	No, Raph killed the foot eilte beofre any of the others came there. I believe you were talkin about "Return to NY".

04-22-2003, 03:20 PM	#55
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	No he wasn't, that goes to show he can fight with skill to.

04-22-2003, 09:44 PM	#56
Tetsu Deinonychus The Iron Dinosaur Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Studio Snowlion HQ Posts: 3,021	I still say all the TMNT are equal! But, anyway in my experience "most skilled" tends to beat "most talented". __________________ (Image hosting by Postimage.org) And here's a list of all my old wacky threads!

04-23-2003, 08:15 AM	#57
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hmmmm Well, not all TMNT are equal in all areas, Tetsu. Just like in real life... some people are stronger, or more intelligent, or more agile, or whatnot than others. That does NOT mean they are 'better' or 'superior' only that they are not 'equal' in everything. Unity in diversity. As for skill vs. talent.... well, that's dependent on the individual circumstance. The only real reason Mike is a better 'fighter' than Leo in the RPG is because of his sheer natural ability. Some people are just like that: they have so much natural ability that they don't require that much training to be very competent fighters. Of course, with enough training and determination, any amount of natural ability can be eventually overcome...... but Mike seemed to have stopped his 'slacking off' when they came to Northampton. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

04-23-2003, 08:40 AM	#58
Tetsu Deinonychus The Iron Dinosaur Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Studio Snowlion HQ Posts: 3,021	I didn't mean equal in all areas. I meant equal total. If you add up their various different strengths and weaknesses they end up equal but for different reasons. __________________ (Image hosting by Postimage.org) And here's a list of all my old wacky threads!

04-23-2003, 08:44 AM	#59
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hmmmm If you mean who is more 'useful', then they are more or less equal..... __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

04-23-2003, 08:57 AM	#60
~~Tokka-B~~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Lost Sewer Posts: 1,829	Very interesting posts here......