If Tone Had NOT Changed Would Fandom Be What It Is Today?

PizzaPower1985 · 07-01-2014, 02:59 PM

Just a question for my fellow fans... What would have happened to the TMNT if let's say the tone of the Mirage books had stayed the same in every other incarnation.

Imagine if you will the 1987 series with a darker tone... toys and movies and comics and everything else reflecting what Eastman and Laird had done.

Would fandom be as strong? Would you guys have preferred it that way? Do you like how malleable TMNT can be? Do you prefer the "kiddification" of the TMNT?

I for one like a healthy mix. The darker tone with humor from Mikey and the turtles relationships.

Discuss....

*snake* · 07-01-2014, 03:07 PM

It would attract the same amount of fans I assume, just not as many younger ones.

*IndigoErth* · 07-01-2014, 03:16 PM

I don't think it would be. After 30 years - assuming it would have gone this long either way - it might still have a healthy enough number of followers, but lets face it... The "kiddification" opened it up to a wider audience and also introduced TMNT to people who were otherwise not yet familiar with the comics or simply weren't the comics sort.

Even if it was a less gritty side, kids helped... back then, and now. Ya figure, there may be a lot of adult collectors today, but doubtful there were back then and the adults now were the child collectors long ago and I'm sure it probably helps when kids get attached to something and want ALL the merchandise that they are possibly allowed to own. Get it popular with the kids on that level and it earns it's permanent spot in society.

I imagine if you take the kids out of the equation it's limited to being something of a cult following sort of fanship.

*CyberCubed* · 07-01-2014, 03:24 PM

I find this topic utterly illogical. All superheroes have kids cartoons.

Did having Spiderman or Batman shows aimed at kids compared to the comics change anything? No, it brought more kids into the franchise.

pingclang · 07-01-2014, 03:41 PM

Everything grows and changes so I think even if the tone had stayed the same there would still be drastic changes in different versions. I think it would still be popular but maybe with different folks.

*Powder* · 07-01-2014, 04:17 PM

I think it'd have gone more the route of Hellboy, had it not become more kid-oriented.

*Redeemer* · 07-01-2014, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I find this topic utterly illogical. All superheroes have kids cartoons.

Did having Spiderman or Batman shows aimed at kids compared to the comics change anything? No, it brought more kids into the franchise.

Batman and spider-man was always meant to be for kids. TMNT is the opposite of Spiderman and batman. TMNT was created for an older audience, Batman and Spider-man was created for kids.

As far as I know Hellboy and Spawn do not have kid cartoons. It is easy to take a kid cartoon and turn it into something more serious, but it can be rather difficult to "Kiddi-fy" a more serious property as TMNT

I believe TMNT would have died out judging from Vol 4

*plastroncafe* · 07-01-2014, 05:29 PM

There have been both Spawn and Hellboy cartoons, and while I wouldn't call either of them "kid friendly" I think they'd pass a YA test.

Well, maybe not Spawn.

Leofan26 · 07-01-2014, 07:19 PM

Well, I think we'd have more adult ish fans than kids.

Yes, shows grow darker as time moves on.

PizzaPower1985 · 07-01-2014, 08:11 PM

I suppose I can agree that without the exposure to children, TMNT would have become a sleeper hit and not generated the mass appeal and not become the phenomenon it has become.

Comparing this hypothetical TMNT to the success of Spawn and Hellboy is probably a very fair assumption.

*miru* · 07-01-2014, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

I suppose I can agree that without the exposure to children, TMNT would have become a sleeper hit and not generated the mass appeal and not become the phenomenon it has become.

Comparing this hypothetical TMNT to the success of Spawn and Hellboy is probably a very fair assumption.

I feel the more childish works actually pushed E&L to work harder, so of they never happened, City at War may have never come to be.

~~Leo656~~ · 07-01-2014, 10:33 PM

I too feel that had the TMNT franchise not been expanded to be more youth-oriented, it very likely would have turned out like Hellboy or Daredevil. Fairly popular, always around more or less, people are aware of it, but still very, very niche. People can cry and talk about "selling out" or "abandoning the roots" all they want about this or that franchise, but the fact remains, you simply cannot truly build a "franchise" or a "brand" to become an evergreen, decades-long, platinum-selling property if you do NOT sell toys to little kids.

As in most cases, this property has never had any problem with having simultaneously-existing products aimed at both kids or adults. In the 80s, you could pick up an issue of Mirage at the local comic shop, then go right next door to whatever discount store or what have you and buy a cheesy coloring book. I kinda get a kick out of that. It's all good for the continued success of the property.

TMNT might still exist if they hadn't gone after the kids' market, but it would never have become AS successful and people wouldn't be as into it as they are. Some would, but they'd be much, much smaller in number.

*pennydreadful* · 07-02-2014, 01:12 AM

Matches Malone · 07-02-2014, 03:07 AM

Echoing the above, I think the comics could've stayed strong as an independent and retained a healthy following. Would it still be around? Maybe. Would we have all the cartoons, toys, and movies? Probably not.

Hannurdock · 07-02-2014, 03:34 AM

Probably not. It was the mass marketing and appeal to children that started fans world-wide liking it. I like the fact there are different versions for age specific fans. You want older and more mature, the comics are the way to go.

Konchadunga · 07-02-2014, 04:43 AM

"Tone" is the wrong word, as the Mirage series is all over the place in tone; something I don't think a lot of people, only familiar with it through the shock value the first issue gave next to the show, understand. If you mean maintaining the mores of the Mirage series, with taboo content and a lack of desire to perpetuate a status quo, I think that's a redundant question given the mores of 1980s cartoons; it had to make those changes or not exist at all as a show.

So if we change the question to whether the franchise and its fandom would be the same with only the Mirage series and it's own merchandise, there are too many variables to answer clearly. With the series already popular by indie serial standards, it probably could have found a toy developer who would promote it without a kiddified cartoon series, and made a movie down the line. However, based on Eastman and Laird's statements, I'm not sure they would have wanted to extend the thing forever. A notable difference when you're a writer of adult graphic novels; as opposed to involved in creating a children's cartoon, is that the adult fans will think more in terms of "Hey; I know that name! His turtle stuff was cool, so I think I'll buy this new motorcycle book." Children only care about what's happening within a series. So had Eastman and Laird devoted more time to the book, they might have decided to can it after a while.

*Refractive Reflections* · 07-02-2014, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

I too feel that had the TMNT franchise not been expanded to be more youth-oriented, it very likely would have turned out like Hellboy or Daredevil. Fairly popular, always around more or less, people are aware of it, but still very, very niche. People can cry and talk about "selling out" or "abandoning the roots" all they want about this or that franchise, but the fact remains, you simply cannot truly build a "franchise" or a "brand" to become an evergreen, decades-long, platinum-selling property if you do NOT sell toys to little kids.

As in most cases, this property has never had any problem with having simultaneously-existing products aimed at both kids or adults. In the 80s, you could pick up an issue of Mirage at the local comic shop, then go right next door to whatever discount store or what have you and buy a cheesy coloring book. I kinda get a kick out of that. It's all good for the continued success of the property.

TMNT might still exist if they hadn't gone after the kids' market, but it would never have become AS successful and people wouldn't be as into it as they are. Some would, but they'd be much, much smaller in number.

Agree with this, and typically not much more to add after Leo656 speaks.

*Candy Kappa* · 07-02-2014, 06:05 AM

Without The Fred Wolf series the pen & paper role-playing game might have gotten bigger. But we've probably not gotten anything more then the first movie, maybe a short lived toyline. And Eastman & Laird would probably go back to Marvel's offer and sell the property when they got bored.

*Katie* · 07-02-2014, 06:22 AM

My guess is that it would be a dead franchise.

The old toon built the fanbase that keeps the franchise alive. Without it, all we'd probably have is mirage books, which, to me, got a little boring after awhile.

Probably would have been dropped eventually as PL tried to push Fugitoid......which would still bomb terribly.

*Kendamu* · 07-02-2014, 05:04 PM

I think it would've ended up more like Usagi Yojimbo. However, if TMNT (in the '80s) could've gotten away with what Batman: The Animated Series got away with in the '90s, it might've become something more while pretty much being Mirage the whole way through. I don't think it would've hit as hard as it did with how things actually went, but people would know it and remember it fondly. Some would actually go out of their way to buy the DVD sets and watch them once in awhile. Some might go as far as to collect animated series-specific nostalgia merchandise, too. Still, it wouldn't be some sort of Viacom-owned mega-franchise only beaten by one of Viacom's other properties in terms of popularity.

07-01-2014, 02:59 PM	#1
PizzaPower1985 Stone Warrior Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: United States Posts: 947	If Tone Had NOT Changed Would Fandom Be What It Is Today? Just a question for my fellow fans... What would have happened to the TMNT if let's say the tone of the Mirage books had stayed the same in every other incarnation. Imagine if you will the 1987 series with a darker tone... toys and movies and comics and everything else reflecting what Eastman and Laird had done. Would fandom be as strong? Would you guys have preferred it that way? Do you like how malleable TMNT can be? Do you prefer the "kiddification" of the TMNT? I for one like a healthy mix. The darker tone with humor from Mikey and the turtles relationships. Discuss....

07-01-2014, 03:16 PM	#3
IndigoErth Team Blue Boy Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: U.S., East Coast Posts: 16,295	I don't think it would be. After 30 years - assuming it would have gone this long either way - it might still have a healthy enough number of followers, but lets face it... The "kiddification" opened it up to a wider audience and also introduced TMNT to people who were otherwise not yet familiar with the comics or simply weren't the comics sort. Even if it was a less gritty side, kids helped... back then, and now. Ya figure, there may be a lot of adult collectors today, but doubtful there were back then and the adults now were the child collectors long ago and I'm sure it probably helps when kids get attached to something and want ALL the merchandise that they are possibly allowed to own. Get it popular with the kids on that level and it earns it's permanent spot in society. I imagine if you take the kids out of the equation it's limited to being something of a cult following sort of fanship. Last edited by IndigoErth; 07-01-2014 at 03:43 PM.

07-02-2014, 01:12 AM	#13
pennydreadful trash Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Australia Posts: 4,546	__________________ Creator of the Technodrome After Dark Discussion Group. PM for an invite (must be over 18 - no exceptions).

07-02-2014, 03:07 AM	#14
Matches Malone Stone Warrior Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: California Posts: 954	Echoing the above, I think the comics could've stayed strong as an independent and retained a healthy following. Would it still be around? Maybe. Would we have all the cartoons, toys, and movies? Probably not. __________________ "Baxter, you slime puppy!"

07-02-2014, 03:34 AM	#15
Hannurdock Foot Soldier Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Birmingham, England Posts: 236	Probably not. It was the mass marketing and appeal to children that started fans world-wide liking it. I like the fact there are different versions for age specific fans. You want older and more mature, the comics are the way to go. __________________ *Try to be like the turtle ... at ease in your own shell.*

07-01-2014, 03:07 PM	#2
snake Disgusting Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Outer Heaven Posts: 12,231	It would attract the same amount of fans I assume, just not as many younger ones.

07-01-2014, 03:24 PM	#4
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,869	I find this topic utterly illogical. All superheroes have kids cartoons. Did having Spiderman or Batman shows aimed at kids compared to the comics change anything? No, it brought more kids into the franchise.

07-01-2014, 03:41 PM	#5
pingclang Stone Warrior Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Tennessee Posts: 552	Everything grows and changes so I think even if the tone had stayed the same there would still be drastic changes in different versions. I think it would still be popular but maybe with different folks.

07-01-2014, 04:17 PM	#6
Powder 40 Years of TMNT Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Shell-Ri-La Posts: 26,954	I think it'd have gone more the route of Hellboy, had it not become more kid-oriented.

07-01-2014, 07:19 PM	#9
Leofan26 Mad Scientist Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 1,306	Well, I think we'd have more adult ish fans than kids. Yes, shows grow darker as time moves on.

07-01-2014, 08:11 PM	#10
PizzaPower1985 Stone Warrior Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: United States Posts: 947	I suppose I can agree that without the exposure to children, TMNT would have become a sleeper hit and not generated the mass appeal and not become the phenomenon it has become. Comparing this hypothetical TMNT to the success of Spawn and Hellboy is probably a very fair assumption.

07-01-2014, 10:33 PM	#12
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I too feel that had the TMNT franchise not been expanded to be more youth-oriented, it very likely would have turned out like Hellboy or Daredevil. Fairly popular, always around more or less, people are aware of it, but still very, very niche. People can cry and talk about "selling out" or "abandoning the roots" all they want about this or that franchise, but the fact remains, you simply cannot truly build a "franchise" or a "brand" to become an evergreen, decades-long, platinum-selling property if you do NOT sell toys to little kids. As in most cases, this property has never had any problem with having simultaneously-existing products aimed at both kids or adults. In the 80s, you could pick up an issue of Mirage at the local comic shop, then go right next door to whatever discount store or what have you and buy a cheesy coloring book. I kinda get a kick out of that. It's all good for the continued success of the property. TMNT might still exist if they hadn't gone after the kids' market, but it would never have become AS successful and people wouldn't be as into it as they are. Some would, but they'd be much, much smaller in number.

07-02-2014, 04:43 AM	#16
Konchadunga Stone Warrior Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Southern California Posts: 912	"Tone" is the wrong word, as the Mirage series is all over the place in tone; something I don't think a lot of people, only familiar with it through the shock value the first issue gave next to the show, understand. If you mean maintaining the mores of the Mirage series, with taboo content and a lack of desire to perpetuate a status quo, I think that's a redundant question given the mores of 1980s cartoons; it had to make those changes or not exist at all as a show. So if we change the question to whether the franchise and its fandom would be the same with only the Mirage series and it's own merchandise, there are too many variables to answer clearly. With the series already popular by indie serial standards, it probably could have found a toy developer who would promote it without a kiddified cartoon series, and made a movie down the line. However, based on Eastman and Laird's statements, I'm not sure they would have wanted to extend the thing forever. A notable difference when you're a writer of adult graphic novels; as opposed to involved in creating a children's cartoon, is that the adult fans will think more in terms of "Hey; I know that name! His turtle stuff was cool, so I think I'll buy this new motorcycle book." Children only care about what's happening within a series. So had Eastman and Laird devoted more time to the book, they might have decided to can it after a while. __________________

07-02-2014, 06:05 AM	#18
Candy Kappa The Agenda of Existing Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Vikingland Posts: 14,596	Without The Fred Wolf series the pen & paper role-playing game might have gotten bigger. But we've probably not gotten anything more then the first movie, maybe a short lived toyline. And Eastman & Laird would probably go back to Marvel's offer and sell the property when they got bored. __________________ devianArt Instagram Youtube Tumblr Art Blog Patreon

07-02-2014, 06:22 AM	#19
Katie Just...way too serious. Join Date: May 2005 Location: purgatory Posts: 3,519	My guess is that it would be a dead franchise. The old toon built the fanbase that keeps the franchise alive. Without it, all we'd probably have is mirage books, which, to me, got a little boring after awhile. Probably would have been dropped eventually as PL tried to push Fugitoid......which would still bomb terribly. __________________ THE WORLD IS JUST AWESOME

07-02-2014, 05:04 PM	#20
Kendamu Sewerhead Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 2,890	I think it would've ended up more like Usagi Yojimbo. However, if TMNT (in the '80s) could've gotten away with what Batman: The Animated Series got away with in the '90s, it might've become something more while pretty much being Mirage the whole way through. I don't think it would've hit as hard as it did with how things actually went, but people would know it and remember it fondly. Some would actually go out of their way to buy the DVD sets and watch them once in awhile. Some might go as far as to collect animated series-specific nostalgia merchandise, too. Still, it wouldn't be some sort of Viacom-owned mega-franchise only beaten by one of Viacom's other properties in terms of popularity.