Official Episode Discussion S2 #22 "Vengeance is Mine"

[TurtleTitan97]

Definitely one of the best episodes by far. Loved how they expanded Shredder's backstory.

[Refractive Reflections]

Originally Posted by Midnight Mutant

This! This! This! So much this!
I just don't understand how a lot of the fanbase praises the show for making them more immature and more like teenagers or tweens than previous incarnations....then harshly criticizes the show and calls ''bad writing'' when they make them respond or react to some of the more serious situations like...a teenager/tween.

It's irritating.

They won't have anywhere to develop these guys if they make them them the most mature people in every serious situation right off the bat.

I know what you mean, I posted about this fandom contradiction in another thread actually:

Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections

It's funny how some are praising this depiction as "finally acting like teenagers", but yet when the Turtles do something immature/amateurish in fighting, some of those same people harp on the Turtles saying, "Why are they not taking it seriously? Don't they understand that ________!!!! " One example was with "Invasion of the Squirrelenoids" when the Turtles made light of Raph's situation, or going after Nick Mikey being dumb or insensitive.

I thought this was how "teenagers" are, right? This immature? It's a contradiction here where they want the Turtles to act rambunctious during their off-time, but yet behave seriously when things are important, like a more grown individual would behave. Hmmm, that seems to imply that there has to be a form of maturity here then, right? A discernment to know when to behave silly and when to be serious? On which emotions/reactions are appropriate in being externally expressed for a particular situation? So if those same people believe that "teenagers" can't do that, then what's to complain about the Nick Turtles behaving reckless/dumb/immature during fights and dramatic situations then? The show is simply catering to what they believe that "teenagers" apparently can not do.

...But for me, their behavior is more tween than anything else because of the lack of seriousness in those, and similar situations.

The viewers have to accept the good and the bad, if they want their Turtles to be so immature and praise this (what I believe) tween form of depiction. Heck, not even so called "mature" adults can always get it right. Viewing a character from a third-person point of view is far different than experiencing it from a first-person point of view.

[Lou 500]

Originally Posted by Vicky82

I know some people here said that Mikey got hurt he should have had a mark on his injured arm. Someone on Tumblr did that to show what it may look like.

This is something that's always bothered me about cartoons - why can't they show a bit of blood? I don't mean that Mikey should've had a giant gaping wound spewing blood everywhere, but maybe just a small, slightly wide red slash mark for a split second before he covered it with his hand.

It's not like kids never get nose bleeds or scraped knees a few times in their lives.

[BubblyShell22]

Originally Posted by Vicky82

Yeah and when the Leo beat down happens, I think we all will be screaming at our tv or computer screens.

I know I will for sure. Leo's my boy, and I did that with the 4Kids series even though I had an eye patch on my good eye and couldn't watch the episode until the next week. I was asking my sister what was happening and cheering for Leo to win. I'll probably do the same thing here, too. Yes, I'm weird. So what?

[Foombamaroom]

Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections

I know what you mean, I posted about this fandom contradiction in another thread actually:

The viewers have to accept the good and the bad, if they want their Turtles to be so immature and praise this (what I believe) tween form of depiction. Heck, not even so called "mature" adults can always get it right. Viewing a character from a third-person point of view is far different than experiencing it from a first-person point of view.

I personally don't feel it's bad writing. I feel that the teenage part goes in with the immaturity. The only character I feel is badly written at times is Mikey. He doesn't act like a teenager sometimes, he just acts stupid.

[Foombamaroom]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

I know I will for sure. Leo's my boy, and I did that with the 4Kids series even though I had an eye patch on my good eye and couldn't watch the episode until the next week. I was asking my sister what was happening and cheering for Leo to win. I'll probably do the same thing here, too. Yes, I'm weird. So what?

Leo one-shot is my favorite arc of the Mirage Comics. The City At War story arc for Leo is my second favorite. Even though Raph's my favorite turtle and has some pretty great arcs, Leo usually gets the best ones.

[Foombamaroom]

Originally Posted by Lou 500

This is something that's always bothered me about cartoons - why can't they show a bit of blood? I don't mean that Mikey should've had a giant gaping wound spewing blood everywhere, but maybe just a small, slightly wide red slash mark for a split second before he covered it with his hand.

It's not like kids never get nose bleeds or scraped knees a few times in their lives.

Because the soccer moms will go crazy.
Star Wars: The Clone Wars is the perfect example of a violent cartoon that's still for kids. They had death, blood, and serious aspects to it, but they also had some humorous parts and light-hearted kids parts. TMNT 2003 did a good job of this also, especially in seasons 3 and 4, but you could tell they had to pull the strings back a bit.

[blindturtle02]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

I know I will for sure. Leo's my boy, and I did that with the 4Kids series even though I had an eye patch on my good eye and couldn't watch the episode until the next week. I was asking my sister what was happening and cheering for Leo to win. I'll probably do the same thing here, too. Yes, I'm weird. So what?

You were sporting an eye patch, Bubbly? Boss! Sorry, I just think they're cool.

Just now getting around to posting my thoughts pertaining to this episode because of exam stuff. I loved it, of course. There hasn't been much of a chance for me to re-watch it yet but once things settle down, I'm certainly planning on it. I love all the Fot/Shredder/Karai stuff, so I was glued to the screen from the first scene. Well, we all saw the Karai mutation bit coming, but it was still sad. I love the idea of her being a sort of shapeshifter. Guess we'll have to wait and see if she'll be able to act rationally in her more humanoid form. Also great to know that Baxter is still able to speak. Like I said in the Kabuto thread, chalk it up to him being extremely depressed about the whole mutation thing now and then. Great episode and looking forward to the final 4 of season 2.

[Foombamaroom]

Originally Posted by blindturtle02

You were sporting an eye patch, Bubbly? Boss! Sorry, I just think they're cool.

Just now getting around to posting my thoughts pertaining to this episode because of exam stuff. I loved it, of course. There hasn't been much of a chance for me to re-watch it yet but once things settle down, I'm certainly planning on it. I love all the Fot/Shredder/Karai stuff, so I was glued to the screen from the first scene. Well, we all saw the Karai mutation bit coming, but it was still sad. I love the idea of her being a sort of shapeshifter. Guess we'll have to wait and see if she'll be able to act rationally in her more humanoid form. Also great to know that Baxter is still able to speak. Like I said in the Kabuto thread, chalk it up to him being extremely depressed about the whole mutation thing now and then. Great episode and looking forward to the final 4 of season 2.

I can't wait until the final 4! Season 2 has had too much filler, but in terms of story it is MUCH better.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by mmacauley

Leo one-shot is my favorite arc of the Mirage Comics. The City At War story arc for Leo is my second favorite. Even though Raph's my favorite turtle and has some pretty great arcs, Leo usually gets the best ones.

Now, that Nick owns the franchise completely, I am hoping they can get away from Leo having the best story arcs, and give each Turtles really excellent story arcs.

[snake]

Originally Posted by mmacauley

Because the soccer moms will go crazy.
Star Wars: The Clone Wars is the perfect example of a violent cartoon that's still for kids. They had death, blood, and serious aspects to it, but they also had some humorous parts and light-hearted kids parts. TMNT 2003 did a good job of this also, especially in seasons 3 and 4, but you could tell they had to pull the strings back a bit.

My six year old brother and I watch CW almost every night. We're on Mortis currently. They get away with so much in the show, TMNT could never pull something of as dark as the Nightsisters arc.

[Ninjinister]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

I know I will for sure. Leo's my boy, and I did that with the 4Kids series even though I had an eye patch on my good eye and couldn't watch the episode until the next week. I was asking my sister what was happening and cheering for Leo to win. I'll probably do the same thing here, too. Yes, I'm weird. So what?

Pre-emptive Tiger Claw cosplay?

[Mutant Ninja Anole]

Complete side note: Looking back at the scenes where Karai was completely unable to do anything against Tiger Claw, I can't help but wonder if the next time we see her we'll get a rematch where she completely destroys him in her new form.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Mutant Ninja Anole

Complete side note: Looking back at the scenes where Karai was completely unable to do anything against Tiger Claw, I can't help but wonder if the next time we see her we'll get a rematch where she completely destroys him in her new form.

It's possible, although I think unlikely. Tigerclaw makes his living going against dangerous foes, he's already seen what she can do in snake form and no doubt would prepare himself for the next encounter. Unless she catches him off guard, she's still going to have a tough time against a guy who likely has 30+ years of fighting experience.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

It's possible, although I think unlikely. Tigerclaw makes his living going against dangerous foes, he's already seen what she can do in snake form and no doubt would prepare himself for the next encounter. Unless she catches him off guard, she's still going to have a tough time against a guy who likely has 30+ years of fighting experience.

Since Tigerclaw has embraced his mutant self, he's one of the ones I hope gets demutated.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

Since Tigerclaw has embraced his mutant self, he's one of the ones I hope gets demutated.

That would be interesting to see. He's based his whole identity around being a tiger mutant, could he even live with being anything else?

[fridaynightdestination]

Originally Posted by mmacauley

Because the soccer moms will go crazy.
Star Wars: The Clone Wars is the perfect example of a violent cartoon that's still for kids. They had death, blood, and serious aspects to it, but they also had some humorous parts and light-hearted kids parts. TMNT 2003 did a good job of this also, especially in seasons 3 and 4, but you could tell they had to pull the strings back a bit.

Exactly, this is why I love Star Wars The Clone Wars so much (even though I've only seen Seasons 1 and 2, have been too lazy the rest of the show out) I don't see why they couldn't of put some sort of cut on Mikey's arm, but oh well...

Anyway..... Did anyone else get a little sad when Splinter picked up Mutated Karai and said "Miwa......My child." I hadn't felt that sad watching something TMNT related since SAINW, even though noone died in VIM and everyone dying in SAINW is what made it sad.

Speaking of dying, I wonder if they are ever gonna kill anyone in this show. If they do, it will have to be offscreen. Avatar The Last Airbender, another Nick cartoon action show that also was rated TVY7 got away with killing people, but they all died offscreen. Maybe they could kill off a villain by having them fall off a building or a building collapses on them... I dunno.

[Foombamaroom]

Originally Posted by snake

My six year old brother and I watch CW almost every night. We're on Mortis currently. They get away with so much in the show, TMNT could never pull something of as dark as the Nightsisters arc.

Wait until you get to Umbara and the "Revenge" story arc at the end of season 4. The show is fan-freaking-tastic because of how dark it gets.

[Foombamaroom]

Originally Posted by fridaynightdestination

Exactly, this is why I love Star Wars The Clone Wars so much (even though I've only seen Seasons 1 and 2, have been too lazy the rest of the show out) I don't see why they couldn't of put some sort of cut on Mikey's arm, but oh well...

Anyway..... Did anyone else get a little sad when Splinter picked up Mutated Karai and said "Miwa......My child." I hadn't felt that sad watching something TMNT related since SAINW, even though noone died in VIM and everyone dying in SAINW is what made it sad.

Speaking of dying, I wonder if they are ever gonna kill anyone in this show. If they do, it will have to be offscreen. Avatar The Last Airbender, another Nick cartoon action show that also was rated TVY7 got away with killing people, but they all died offscreen. Maybe they could kill off a villain by having them fall off a building or a building collapses on them... I dunno.

Well, Avatar and LoK get away with killing people, but the deaths aren't violent. Okay, spoiler for people who haven't seen LoK, but each season the main antagonist dies at the end. Amon got blown up and Unalaq/Dark Avatar got killed by Korra. Turtles could get away with killing a character per season, possibly killing Shredder. Heck, characters in 2003 and even 1987 series were killed sometimes.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by mmacauley

Well, Avatar and LoK get away with killing people, but the deaths aren't violent. Okay, spoiler for people who haven't seen LoK, but each season the main antagonist dies at the end. Amon got blown up and Unalaq/Dark Avatar got killed by Korra. Turtles could get away with killing a character per season, possibly killing Shredder. Heck, characters in 2003 and even 1987 series were killed sometimes.

Yeah murder suicide for Amon. And there is a moment where even Korra is contemplating suicide.