Movie Shredder is a Japanese warlord, not a ninja

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

All right, after having seen the movie myself, and seeing what the characters do, how they fight, et. I've come to the conclusion that movie shredder is not a ninja in this movie- but rather, that he sees himself as a self-styled, feudal Japanese warlord. My evidence?

-Nowhere, in the entire movie are the Foot Clan called ninjas. They are only called a criminal organization that hailed from Japan orginally. A japanese clan with a lot of foriegn adoptees, yes. But not ninja!

-The foot soldiers use of non-ninja weapons and tactics. There is no stealth, no shadow fighting. They threaten people with guns, and make no effort to hide in the shadows. Even Karai is more military than ninja.

-Motivation. A ninja clan would be out to make a profit by selling it's mercenary services to the higest bidder. Ororke Saki here is trying to take over the city- and fighting in a mechanized suit of Samurai-like armor, too boot.

An armored clan leader, who wants power, with an army of trained soldiers doing his bidding. This in no way sounds like a ninja master, but it fits the description of a modern take on a Sengoku-era warlord to a T.Sure, he may know martial arts, but that armor is more for sci-fi samruai style combat than ninjitsu.

Now before you think I'm hating on the movie, I actually LIKE this idea. In both folklore and history, Ninja clans rarely fought with other ninja clans, unless they were working for opposing daimyos that hired them. More often, thier true targets were the evil warlord whom the villagers scraped together enough money to hire the ninja to kill them, or one Daimyo who wanted a rival dead, and hired a ninja clan to elimate him.

So casting Shredder as a warlord who knows martial arts is entirely fitting. Add to the fact the turtles knowledge of ninjitsu is not tied to the foot clan here, and there is no need for the foot to be ninja to begin with. With the new movie, you have the very Japanese concept of four ninja being raised to take down the evil warlord plauging the people- an idea mentioned in both the 'legend of the yokai' video, and Sachs's little speech about the warlord from feudal japan who poisioned the water supply (and I think both warlords may actually be Saki himself, kept alive through the power of the mutagen).

I leave this idea here for your consideration.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Real ninjas also used guns. Also, I don't think the 2014 film Foot Clan even is supposed to be as much ninja as previous versions, except for Shredder.

[The True Shredder]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Real ninjas also used guns. Also, I don't think the 2014 film Foot Clan even is supposed to be as much ninja as previous versions, except for Shredder.

I don't think real ninjas use guns. And this film disappointed me because. Martial Arts if done right is more dangerous than using guns....

[Puddinpop]

When have they ever been called foot ninja? They are foot soldiers. And Shredder in this movie is obviously a Master Martial Artist. There also wasn't anything ruling out him being a ninja.. Personally.. I don't get this thread lol. But.. Eh.

I think Shredder was more deadly in this movie than ever before. That first scene with him alone was more badass than anything Ive ever seen him do in the past. His voice was also naturally intimidating. It didn't need a cheesy computer effect layer over it for him to sound intimidating. I wish we saw more of him fighting without the armor. Even though I enjoyed him kicking ass in that armor.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by The True Shredder

I don't think real ninjas use guns. And this film disappointed me because. Martial Arts if done right is more dangerous than using guns....

Not true at all. Ninjas, in truth, were the Sengoku and early edo-era version of modern mercanary comandos, thier services for sale to the higest bidder. They used whatever weapons were nesscessary to get the job they were hired to do, done- wither it was spying, sabotoge, garding a target, or (the reerest task they were actually called upon for) assassinating a target. To the Shinobi, martial arts was simply just another tool to accomplish thier goals- along with poision, guns (once the Dutch brought them in), or whatever else was needed to accomplish whatever they were hired to do.

As I said before, ninja-on-ninja martial arts battles were rare to the point of nonexistance. A ninja only engaged another ninja if they were hired for opposing tasks. Ninja-ninja martial arts battles, clan rivialres over honor 'you killed my mother/brother/sister, etc.', and the ninjas bring promarily martial artists is more a product of hollywood over reality or japanese folklore. A ninja would have no problem picking up a gun and shooting a target if he was paid to do so.

Originally Posted by Puddinpop

When have they ever been called foot ninja? They are foot soldiers. And Shredder in this movie is obviously a Master Martial Artist. There also wasn't anything ruling out him being a ninja.. Personally.. I don't get this thread lol. But.. Eh.

I think Shredder was more deadly in this movie than ever before. That first scene with him alone was more badass than anything Ive ever seen him do in the past. His voice was also naturally intimidating. It didn't need a cheesy computer effect layer over it for him to sound intimidating. I wish we saw more of him fighting without the armor. Even though I enjoyed him kicking ass in that armor.

They are indeed called foot ninja in certain continuities, and Shredder is alwways presnted as the 'leader of a ninja clan' outside of this film. Yes he knows martial arts here, but I still contend this shredder is not a shinobi- his goal and the goal of his clan is aquistion of power and conquest, while the goal of a ninja clan is the selling of mercenary servies of spying, sabotoge, and assasination to the highest bidder. The point of this thread is this Shredder is more Diamyo than ninja master, and I think that is awesome.

[Puddinpop]

Originally Posted by The True Shredder

I don't think real ninjas use guns. And this film disappointed me because. Martial Arts if done right is more dangerous than using guns....

In todays world.. with todays technology and high security.. it made sense. This foot was more of a threat. They aren't a bunch of 16 year olds stealing TV's. They are trying to control the city by spreading fear. If you are surrounded by cops with guns and stun guns.. I don't think you are going to be able to kick and punch your way out of it. Yea it's cooler to see only martial arts being utilized but.. there is no way a foot or a fist can be more deadly than an automatic weapon. If that were the case.. cops and soldiers would all be ninjas.
They also cut a lot of scenes out for some reason. Unfortunately.

It made sense for the foot to be equipped with automatic weapons.

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

They are indeed called foot ninja in certain continuities, and Shredder is alwways presnted as the 'leader of a ninja clan' outside of this film. Yes he knows martial arts here, but I still contend this shredder is not a shinobi- his goal and the goal of his clan is aquistion of power and conquest, while the goal of a ninja clan is the selling of mercenary servies of spying, sabotoge, and assasination to the highest bidder. The point of this thread is this Shredder is more Diamyo than ninja master, and I think that is awesome.

I don't think there was enough information to disclaim him being a ninja.

I LOVED Shredder in this movie.. So much so that I'm a little bitter that they didn't have more of him without the armor. He was so intimidating.
His low voice speaking Japanese.. I don't remember him speaking Japanese in any of the other films. After seeing him take out that foot soldier with his hands tied behind his back... it was awesome. This film definitely could have been better. I think they've learned a lot from this first one and hopefully will do a lot better in TMNT 2. I Enjoyed what Liebesman did here.. But I want someone else for TMNT 2. Some with more experience.
Maybe put Bay behind the camera.

[The True Shredder]

Originally Posted by Puddinpop

In todays world.. with todays technology and high security.. it made sense. This foot was more of a threat. They aren't a bunch of 16 year olds stealing TV's. They are trying to control the city by spreading fear. If you are surrounded by cops with guns and stun guns.. I don't think you are going to be able to kick and punch your way out of it. Yea it's cooler to see only martial arts being utilized but.. there is no way a foot or a fist can be more deadly than an automatic weapon. If that were the case.. cops and soldiers would all be ninjas.
They also cut a lot of scenes out for some reason. Unfortunately.

It made sense for the foot to be equipped with automatic weapons.

Sure. Today's society we use guns...but I disagree with what you say.If you think Martial Arts is nothing more than just kicks and punches than you are sorely mistaken. You overestimate guns big time.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by The True Shredder

I don't think real ninjas use guns. And this film disappointed me because. Martial Arts if done right is more dangerous than using guns....

Except guns did exist during the time of the Ninja. Heck, one of the Shinobi's specialty was explosives, grenades.

Martial arts, as in fisticuffs is not a primary thing that makes a ninja a ninja. And the most "ninja" conventional weapon probably is the bow and arrow, as Shinobi had a plethora of arrows to do various tasks. (The fire arrow comes especially into mind).

But, that said, a more "traditional" ninja would have Been great to see, as swords are cooler then guns.

[strawberryfields]

Originally Posted by Puddinpop

When have they ever been called foot ninja? They are foot soldiers. And Shredder in this movie is obviously a Master Martial Artist. There also wasn't anything ruling out him being a ninja.. Personally.. I don't get this thread lol. But.. Eh.

I think Shredder was more deadly in this movie than ever before. That first scene with him alone was more badass than anything Ive ever seen him do in the past. His voice was also naturally intimidating. It didn't need a cheesy computer effect layer over it for him to sound intimidating. I wish we saw more of him fighting without the armor. Even though I enjoyed him kicking ass in that armor.

The lack of character development actually made shredder a better villain. The only scene leading up to him as shredder is when he's tied up and kicks that soldiers ass. The only impression you get is that he is a merciless monster of a person and it worked out very well. At one point I thought for sure he was going to kill splinter but then I thought "no way I would have heard about that by now"

[The True Shredder]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Except guns did exist during the time of the Ninja. Heck, one of the Shinobi's specialty was explosives, grenades.

Martial arts, as in fisticuffs is not a primary thing that makes a ninja a ninja. And the most "ninja" conventional weapon probably is the bow and arrow, as Shinobi had a plethora of arrows to do various tasks. (The fire arrow comes especially into mind).

But, that said, a more "traditional" ninja would have Been great to see, as swords are cooler then guns.

You misunderstood me about ninjas and guns. I was using it in Today's sense not back than. And yeah it is the Bow and Arrow.I never mind that because a ninja is supposed to be discreet . But as a last resort they will do Martial Arts.

[graphic_content]

@Panda

well written, well thought out. Ive seen the movie twice and though I noticed the samurai versys ninja struggle I didnt place it in conjunction with the historical context that for years the ninja were used/hired to fight against oppressive samurai (not that all were, but still); given new context, the conflict between them seems just as strong. I may prefered Hamato and opposing ninja clans, but this will serve its purpose well.

[jestermon]

Originally Posted by The True Shredder

I don't think real ninjas use guns. And this film disappointed me because. Martial Arts if done right is more dangerous than using guns....

What kind of martial arts are you going to use that can get the results of a squad of guys with automatic weapons?

Of course real ninjas used guns if they had access to them, it would be dumb not to use the latest weapons they were paid assassins.

[The True Shredder]

Originally Posted by jestermon

What kind of martial arts are you going to use that can get the results of a squad of guys with automatic weapons?

Of course real ninjas used guns if they had access to them, it would be dumb not to use the latest weapons they were paid assassins.

Have you ever watched DBZ?

[SwiftNinjaFox]

Originally Posted by Puddinpop

They are trying to control the city by spreading fear. If you are surrounded by cops with guns and stun guns..

...then you aren't a very good ninja to begin with.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by SwiftNinjaFox

...then you aren't a very good ninja to begin with.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by The True Shredder

Have you ever watched DBZ?

So now DBZ is reality?

[Candy Kappa]

Clearly you don't need guns when you can rip a planet in half with your middle finger, or when you can shot energy bolts from your fists that cause more damage then a assault rifle.

Totally Ninja.