Clarification of Dark Leo and Dark Raph

[aliena]

Okay, so I haven't read the comics. I'm in the process of trying to get a few IDW to get started, but I've been hearing bits and pieces of news that

Spoiler:

There may be a Dark Raph storyline coming up in season three

I'm not sure if I need to use spoilers since I'm not sure if anything is set in stone as fact yet.

My question is, what was the Dark Leo storyline about? How would it relate to a Dark Raph storyline? From what I've heard, could it be possible that Raph only pretends to be brainwashed by Shredder to get close enough to him to destroy him? When Raph couldn't get to Shredder as he was throwing Splinter into the drain, I just felt that he would be the one to come back out of nowhere and go after him. I had a feeling that he would try something sneaky and not go at him from the front, but from the shadows.

Anyway, I'd love to hear more about Dark Leo and how it could change the current show. What could we expect to see if there were to be a Dark Raph storyline?

[Warhorse]

My understanding is that its basically the Turtles version of the whole Anakin Skywalker turning into Darth Vader.

[Megchan]

Basically Shredder kidnapped Leo, and had a spirit named Kitsune rewrite his memories, making him believe Splinter was evil.

[PangolinFeets]

I was the one who first heard about the Dark Raph storyline coming up. I asked Brandon Auman at the NYCC meet and greet about possible IDW storylines or characters being used in the cartoon (specifically Alopex).
To my best recollection, he said they try to stay away from IDW stories and stick more to old stuff like Mirage, the movies, and 2k3. "But," he said, glancing both ways nervously, "Spoilers: You know the whole Dark Leo storyline? We're going to have something loosely based on that, but with Dark Raph."

So all I know for certain, if you want to take Brandon Auman's word as fact, is that there will be a 'Dark Raph' in the near future. I doubt it'll be under the same circumstances (In the comics, Shredder wants an apprentice who is a born leader.). Perhaps Shredder wants Raph for his brute strength? Or maybe it isn't even Shredder that gets him. I'm thinking Bishop gets introduced and EPF does the deed. Or perhaps a new villain.


As for the comic, City Fall was what got me reading IDW. It's my favorite story so I'm insanely excited to see anything like it appear in the show.

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by PangolinFeets

I was the one who first heard about the Dark Raph storyline coming up. I asked Brandon Auman at the NYCC meet and greet about possible IDW storylines or characters being used in the cartoon (specifically Alopex).
To my best recollection, he said they try to stay away from IDW stories and stick more to old stuff like Mirage, the movies, and 2k3. "But," he said, glancing both ways nervously, "Spoilers: You know the whole Dark Leo storyline? We're going to have something loosely based on that, but with Dark Raph."

So all I know for certain, if you want to take Brandon Auman's word as fact, is that there will be a 'Dark Raph' in the near future. I doubt it'll be under the same circumstances (In the comics, Shredder wants an apprentice who is a born leader.). Perhaps Shredder wants Raph for his brute strength? Or maybe it isn't even Shredder that gets him. I'm thinking Bishop gets introduced and EPF does the deed. Or perhaps a new villain.


As for the comic, City Fall was what got me reading IDW. It's my favorite story so I'm insanely excited to see anything like it appear in the show.

Or maybe Shredder mutants Raph and he becomes Tokka.

There always a chance that a person forgets who he/she was after getting mutated.

[Electric]

My very rough prediction of all this:

It'll be late in season 3

The ideas always tossed around that someone switched sides because they're forced to, but I highly doubt that'll be the case with Raph, I'm thinking brainwashing.

I think it'll be shredder who does it, and probably because of something with karai. Either just her absence makes him want a new apprentice, maybe she turns human again and joins the turtles, so shredder takes someone from them, or just another attempt to hurt splinter after he finds out he's Alive.


Really excited for dark raph, because it'll be something different. Also sounds like Raphs getting a bulk of development this season

[victory_angel]

There is a shot in the episode that sort of foreshadows Dark Raph in Vengeance is Mine.

During the point where the Shellraiser pulls up just as Shredder is explaining his evil evil plan to tiger claw. There is one moment of inside the Shellraiser that is largely focused on Raph and Splinter. Splinter is standing just behind Raph as he is putting on his Shuko spikes. Leo is in the far background with his back to the camera.

Donnie and Mikey are completely not seen except for Mikey's hand handing Donnie a smoke bomb egg in the foreground.

Originally Posted by ElectricN

My very rough prediction of all this:

It'll be late in season 3

The ideas always tossed around that someone switched sides because they're forced to, but I highly doubt that'll be the case with Raph, I'm thinking brainwashing.

I think it'll be shredder who does it, and probably because of something with karai. Either just her absence makes him want a new apprentice, maybe she turns human again and joins the turtles, so shredder takes someone from them, or just another attempt to hurt splinter after he finds out he's Alive.


Really excited for dark raph, because it'll be something different. Also sounds like Raphs getting a bulk of development this season

We do have a couple of episodes where Raph is told that his anger is his enemy. And in one of the Shredder/Splinter fights...Shredder does say that his anger fuels him and makes him strong. So Shredder may realizes that Karai is a lost cause, so he entices Raph to give into his rage and join the foot clan.

In a way Slash from Slash and Destroy was a sneek peek at what Raph will become.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

My very rough prediction of all this:

It'll be late in season 3

The ideas always tossed around that someone switched sides because they're forced to, but I highly doubt that'll be the case with Raph, I'm thinking brainwashing.

I think it'll be shredder who does it, and probably because of something with karai. Either just her absence makes him want a new apprentice, maybe she turns human again and joins the turtles, so shredder takes someone from them, or just another attempt to hurt splinter after he finds out he's Alive.


Really excited for dark raph, because it'll be something different. Also sounds like Raphs getting a bulk of development this season

I like the idea of Shredder behind it, because in all the other incarnations, it was always Leo that had the Shredder stories, and it's is so refreshing to see someone finally break that mold.

[PangolinFeets]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

I like the idea of Shredder behind it, because in all the other incarnations, it was always Leo that had the Shredder stories, and it's is so refreshing to see someone finally break that mold.

Agreed. It'd be great if it was the same basic story as the original, but switching Raph and Leo.


Also, I just wanna say...I WAS RIGHT!!!!!!
http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/sho...02#post1359202

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

There is a shot in the episode that sort of foreshadows Dark Raph in Vengeance is Mine.

During the point where the Shellraiser pulls up just as Shredder is explaining his evil evil plan to tiger claw. There is one moment of inside the Shellraiser that is largely focused on Raph and Splinter. Splinter is standing just behind Raph as he is putting on his Shuko spikes. Leo is in the far background with his back to the camera.

Donnie and Mikey are completely not seen except for Mikey's hand handing Donnie a smoke bomb egg in the foreground.



We do have a couple of episodes where Raph is told that his anger is his enemy. And in one of the Shredder/Splinter fights...Shredder does say that his anger fuels him and makes him strong. So Shredder may realizes that Karai is a lost cause, so he entices Raph to give into his rage and join the foot clan.

In a way Slash from Slash and Destroy was a sneek peek at what Raph will become.

What episode does Shredder say "his anger fuels him and makes him strong"? I dont remember that line.

[Darth Knuckles]

Originally Posted by Werecat

What episode does Shredder say "his anger fuels him and makes him strong"? I dont remember that line.

In The Invasion, Part 2 Shredder says "And I am stronger than ever. Fueled by anger, by rage!" It's when he and Splinter just start to fight. Splinter also says "Rage is a fuel that burns quickly." I did find it interesting that Shredder said that in that specific episode. Especially an episode where he defeated Splinter in the fight. He defeated him the way Raph usually is, with anger as an ally. So I did find that really interesting.

[HotNunchuckFury]

I'm excited to see this, it will be good for Raph to get more character development. Although one reason I believe City Fall had such a strong impact is because the one who switched sides was Leo - the leader, the eldest son, the most dedicated of the four to Master Splinter's teachings. I think with Raph it's generally half expected that at some point he'll wander off track, he's the one most likely to challenge things and rebel. I'm not saying it won't work, I'm very much looking forward to it, I just wonder if it will have the same impact.

[victory_angel]

In a way it seems that Raph is the only one who the Shredder would see promise in.

Leo is skilled but he's to loyal to Splinter...to noble. In "Kuro Kabuto" the Shredder does have a moment where he mocks Leo by saying that that he's pathetic but that is to be expected when his Sensei is a weak willed coward like Splinter.

Donnie and Mikey I don't see him having much value in. Donnie he would say is a weak fighter and like all weak fighters he should be eliminated because they have no place on the battle field. In the Shredder's eyes Donnie's only saving grace would be his intellect and that also would make him someone the Shredder would want to eliminate simply because it would cause the turtles would lose any advantage with him.

Mikey would be too random...too erratic...so at best Shredder would put him in the most dangerous missions with the hope he would perish along side the Shredder's foes.

But Raph he could see promise in because Raph does let his anger fuel his actions. So telling Raph that Splinter is holding back his potential and why should his weakling brothers shine while he is so much better then they are and should by rights shine brighter.

But with the Foot Clan, he will shine and his full potential will be unlocked. He would no longer be retrained or forced to play second fiddle to people who aren't even worth his time.

[IndigoErth]

If Raph ends up brainwashed to fight against his own family... Perhaps that may end up containing a rather nasty Leo/Raph encounter? Something akin to 2007? Though I hope all are involved, I can't see Leo being able to give it his all against his own brother, and I imagine that setup would be more dangerous to hold back than it was in 2007. If he zeros in on Leo hopefully Donnie and Mikey will have the opportunity to subdue him and get his ass out of that situation.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

If Raph ends up brainwashed to fight against his own family... Perhaps that may end up containing a rather nasty Leo/Raph encounter? Something akin to 2007? Though I hope all are involved, I can't see Leo being able to give it his all against his own brother, and I imagine that setup would be more dangerous to hold back than it was in 2007. If he zeros in on Leo hopefully Donnie and Mikey will have the opportunity to subdue him and get his ass out of that situation.

Well, I read sypnosis of the City Fall story,

Spoiler:

and in that one, Raph was the main one dealing with the fighting of Leo, and it does mention he himself was not fighting Leo with everything he's got because he didn't want to hurt his brother, so, he actually started to talk to Leo, and try to get through him in that way, not physcially, but mentally. I'm pretty sure we're going to get something similar, but I wouldn't be surprised that it's Mikey who gets through to Raph in the end.

[snake]

City fall is a great arc. The way it leads into Northhampton is pretty cool as well.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Well, I read sypnosis of the City Fall story,

Spoiler:

and in that one, Raph was the main one dealing with the fighting of Leo, and it does mention he himself was not fighting Leo with everything he's got because he didn't want to hurt his brother, so, he actually started to talk to Leo, and try to get through him in that way, not physcially, but mentally. I'm pretty sure we're going to get something similar, but I wouldn't be surprised that it's Mikey who gets through to Raph in the end.

Ah, ty. Would be great for Mikey if it's him. Though I also really love those moments/events that bring Leo and Raph closer together.

[victory_angel]

Well we never saw that beat down Slash gave Donnie. We just see Donnie getting dragged away and then when Raph and Mikey find him we are left with the impression that he was beaten and left for dead. And when he tells Raph and Mikey about what happened to him. he says the person that attacked him was like Raph, but angrier.

And also when the Shredder attempts to kill Donnie Raph is the one who deflects the killing blow

So maybe as a test of loyalty the Shredder has Raph face off against one of his brothers which turns out to be Donnie. Raph goes through with giving Donnie a beat down. But doesn't kill him. Instead he claims Donnie would more then likely not survive his injuries. So he should be left where the other Turtles could find him as a warning.

[Vicky82]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

If Raph ends up brainwashed to fight against his own family... Perhaps that may end up containing a rather nasty Leo/Raph encounter? Something akin to 2007? Though I hope all are involved, I can't see Leo being able to give it his all against his own brother, and I imagine that setup would be more dangerous to hold back than it was in 2007. If he zeros in on Leo hopefully Donnie and Mikey will have the opportunity to subdue him and get his ass out of that situation.

Dark Raph vs Leo would be awesome

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Well, I read sypnosis of the City Fall story,

Spoiler:

and in that one, Raph was the main one dealing with the fighting of Leo, and it does mention he himself was not fighting Leo with everything he's got because he didn't want to hurt his brother, so, he actually started to talk to Leo, and try to get through him in that way, not physcially, but mentally. I'm pretty sure we're going to get something similar, but I wouldn't be surprised that it's Mikey who gets through to Raph in the end.

I have a feeling that it will be Mikey that helps Raph. When Mikey calms Raph down in The Invasion, I think it is foreshadowing it but the next time it be in a more dangerous situation and Mikey could be putting his life in danger just to help bring back Raph to his senses.

I think at the end of season 3, we are going to see another badly injured turtle and it's not going to be Leo this time.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Vicky82

Dark Raph vs Leo would be awesome



I have a feeling that it will be Mikey that helps Raph. When Mikey calms Raph down in The Invasion, I think it is foreshadowing it but the next time it be in a more dangerous situation and Mikey could be putting his life in danger just to help bring back Raph to his senses.

I think at the end of season 3, we are going to see another badly injured turtle and it's not going to be Leo this time.

Or maybe not Raph either. We've already seen Raph and Leo on the brink of death already (Raph in the 1990 movie, Leo and Raph in the 2k3 and now Leo in 2012) But, I guess it's because the two more aggressive of the brothers are doing their jobs at keeping the sweeter brothers safe.