Were the production errors actually accceptable?

*neatoman* · 10-31-2014, 01:47 AM

So we all know the Fred Wolf cartoon had quite a lot of production errors, missing animation, coloring mistakes, layer errors, sound mixing errors, continuity errors within the episodes themselves, etc.

The question is, was this actually acceptable? I'm not talking about wheter or not you found the errors unintentionally amusing, that's just you finding enjoyment in something that ended up in the show and if you find it enjoyable even if it was not intended to be there then that's fine.
I'm talking about quality standards here, did the production uphold a decent quality standard?

With constant errors I would say not. I have watched through a lot of 80's-90's cartoons and it's kind of scary how many errors many of them contain, so TMNT was not alone in that area and it's actually not quite as bad as it could have been, but even if I know they are old and had a very low budget it's clear to me that such a level of errors can't uphold a decent standard.

Because if errors like this:

Spoiler:

Can easily be fixed by cutting out a second of footage, yet it's left untouched and thus technically deemed acceptable for broadcast, then that's not a good standard, not even back then.

Reminder here, this is not about if you found it unintentionally funny, this about production standards.

*Refractive Reflections* · 10-31-2014, 02:13 AM

Most of these production errors are found during the 3rd, 4th (plus the European Sideseason), and 5th seasons when they were producing 47, 39+13 (52 total), 22 episodes a season respectively. So from that perspective, it's more than understandable that the production quality is going to suffer somewhat with so many episodes being produced within the course of each year. (Compare that to the 26 episodes/season for the 2003 and 2012 shows.)

In addition, isn't there around 4-5 images per second for hand-drawn animation?

So if we do the math:

4 images per second x 60 seconds per minute x 22 minutes = 5280 images
5 images per second x 60 seconds per minute x 22 minutes = 6600 images

So it ranges from 5280-6600 images per episode, and again, considering the number of episodes that had be created within a year for the 3rd, 4th, and 5th seasons, it makes sense why there would be animation errors with the rush paced of their production. It's certainly tolerable because it was just that bad, it (as with other cartoons) certainly wouldn't have been allowed to be aired.

But if you're looking for something more concrete in terms of quality control standards, the differences of animation standards from then and now, and the exact specifications of what's considered "acceptable" or not, you'll probably have to do some deeper digging and maybe contact an animation studio.

From my perspective and considering what I've stated above, I'm actually surprised that the animation quality wasn't worse and it's actually good. Not as polished as the first season of course, but the 3rd, 4th, and 5th seasons still hold up.

*IndigoErth* · 10-31-2014, 11:57 AM

It was the times. Most animation back then, outside maybe the likes of Disney and similar, doesn't seem to have been taken too seriously as an art form to concern itself with perfection. It was what it was, it was fun, if imperfect so be it. For back then, it's fine. When they've got multiple people pumping out frame after frame, maybe there just wasn't the budget to insist on exact attention to detail and perfection in terms of the time it would cost to see to it.

Animation has simply become more of a serious art form, more people getting into careers that take it seriously, making the audience expect more and making the faults in the old stuff a lot more noticeable.

*CyberCubed* · 10-31-2014, 01:59 PM

Most cartoons back in the 80's had animation errors. You just probably didn't notice it back then.

It was probably more obvious with TMNT simply because of the color bandana's.

*DarkFell* · 10-31-2014, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Most cartoons back in the 80's had animation errors. You just probably didn't notice it back then.

It was probably more obvious with TMNT simply because of the color bandana's.

Add that with the wrong costume / clothes colors, wrong voices coming out of the characters mouths, ect.
Common errors that were due mostly to rushed animation production, miscommunication in the VA booth, whatever.
Not holding any of that against them.

Lisardo · 10-31-2014, 03:44 PM

Acceptable based on the amount of episodes they had to crank out, also with the multiple animation studios they were outsourced too (already there's a lack of continuity). Tho with Batman TAS, there were less mistakes, and also the episodes were outsourced to multiple Asian animation studios. But at least there they fixed the mistakes later. I guess with TMNT there was too many to fix..? Though it would have been nice had it been done.

*THGhost* · 11-02-2014, 04:23 PM

I didn't work in the 80s TV industry, so I personally cannot comment on whether or not these kinds of errors were acceptable. But I do believe that they should have been more careful.
However, they do add to the overall charm of the cartoons of the 80s. I've even seen cartoons from the 90s with similar errors.

If you want a cartoon with so many animation errors that they've become notoriously known throughout popular culture, watch the original G1 Transformers cartoon.

*ProactiveMan* · 11-03-2014, 12:45 AM

From what I understand, fixing animation errors pre-digital was reasonably expensive and time consuming. They had to prioritise fixes, and they couldn't get all of them. I guess it wasn't a matter of acceptability, but more feasibility.

AnarkyLantern · 11-03-2014, 09:15 PM

Understandable. TV animation usually have some retakes available but it comes down to what gets caught in time and what gets priority. There's a lot of technical innovations that have minimized animation errors in recent years. Color mistakes can be easily fixed due to digital coloring. Ftp servers can allow for animation to be seen within hours of being drawn. I think that's why the main place you see regular animation errors now are in lower budgeted, non-US productions. I don't know if this is still the case but at one point, anime series would have some animation errors fixed before video releases.

*pannoni1* · 11-04-2014, 12:42 PM

Continuing errors: No. It really skews off the overall arc between not just the episodes themselves, but also the course of the series. Its one of the weaknesses of the OT for that matter. More technical errors such as coloring and voice mistakes are more comical which add a bit to the tone of the show and I can get a laugh out of them however. Its more forgiving that many of these were animated in Korea or China (and even Europe for that matter) were inferior compared to those animated in Japan, which by the late 1980s had a reputation for quality animation. Something out of Toei or TMS will beat anything out of A-1 or MW Dublin anyday. I feel that since many episodes back then were recorded often just six months prior to airing (compared to today where its a year up to as much as 18 months), and combined with more episodes in certain seasons, just doesn't give the time to revise and polish. But unfortunately this short window led to more substantial errors in terms of misinterpreting the storyboards, which while partly a writer's error, also no doubt had errors based on animation.

*Whatswiththeheadbands?* · 11-04-2014, 01:19 PM

No. It shows that the series didn't get the best attention quality wise IMO.

Although, G1 Transformers had the absolute worst animation errors.

Check out Blue Optimus Prime

*ProactiveMan* · 11-04-2014, 07:01 PM

I don't know that much about the production of TMNT specifically but I know a bit about how other shows were produced for TV at the time. Apparently the Korean studios were under so much pressure to crank out animation that they would shoot cel set-ups without using the glass cover. You can see a lot of drop shadows and weird flairs of light in shows like the Simpsons and Ren & Stimpy, due to gaps between the cels when they were shot.

tmntpower1988 · 11-05-2014, 10:20 AM

What was up with Shredder in Michelangelo's Birthday?

*neatoman* · 11-05-2014, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmntpower1988

What was up with Shredder in Michelangelo's Birthday?

http://s14.directupload.net/images/141105/iyuawvxm.jpg

"Oh god! I not now, why do I have to take a dump right now?"

*pferreira* · 11-07-2014, 04:19 AM

I don't think all the animation errors were acceptable. When I look at the quality of animation in the OT I compare it to other cartoons from that period. Ninja Turtles did have more animation errors than The Real Ghostbusters. Having said that I think what irritates me the most is that the show being given to various animation companies meant that that show always looked off model. The style of animation not being consistent episode to episode annoyed me more as a child than the wrong colour bandanna. Ironically it was Fred Wolf's own Ireland studio who were also guilty of this. Wasn't the show produced in Ireland as well? Would that make the OT a British co-operation?

It would interesting if someone posted caps from all the animation studios who worked on the show just so we can see the differences between them.

~~Davetello~~ · 11-07-2014, 04:33 AM

I think it's fine, and probably even adds some charm to the show. It's quirky.

Let's be honest, the original show wasn't exactly intended to be a literary masterpiece, so we can be more forgiving of animation errors. It takes nothing away from the show, and as I said it probably adds to its appeal.

*neatoman* · 11-08-2014, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davetello

charm

You know, I keep hearing the show being described as "charming" but I never feel charmed watching it.

*CyberCubed* · 11-08-2014, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatoman

You know, I keep hearing the show being described as "charming" but I never feel charmed watching it.

That's because you don't know how to have fun.

*DarkFell* · 11-08-2014, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

That's because you don't know how to have fun.

Maybe other people here might see you the same way.
OT TMNT might not be fun for everyone. I can respect that.

*neatoman* · 11-08-2014, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

That's because you don't know how to have fun.

I know how to have fun, but what I'm assuming the "charm" is, I just find mildly annoying.

View Poll Results: Were the errors acceptable? (Ignoring wheter or not you found them amusing)
Yes	15	68.18%
No	7	31.82%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

10-31-2014, 02:13 AM	#2
Refractive Reflections Mad Scientist $Refractive Reflections's Avatar$ Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,371	Most of these production errors are found during the 3rd, 4th (plus the European Sideseason), and 5th seasons when they were producing 47, 39+13 (52 total), 22 episodes a season respectively. So from that perspective, it's more than understandable that the production quality is going to suffer somewhat with so many episodes being produced within the course of each year. (Compare that to the 26 episodes/season for the 2003 and 2012 shows.) In addition, isn't there around 4-5 images per second for hand-drawn animation? So if we do the math: 4 images per second x 60 seconds per minute x 22 minutes = 5280 images 5 images per second x 60 seconds per minute x 22 minutes = 6600 images So it ranges from 5280-6600 images per episode, and again, considering the number of episodes that had be created within a year for the 3rd, 4th, and 5th seasons, it makes sense why there would be animation errors with the rush paced of their production. It's certainly tolerable because it was just that bad, it (as with other cartoons) certainly wouldn't have been allowed to be aired. But if you're looking for something more concrete in terms of quality control standards, the differences of animation standards from then and now, and the exact specifications of what's considered "acceptable" or not, you'll probably have to do some deeper digging and maybe contact an animation studio. From my perspective and considering what I've stated above, I'm actually surprised that the animation quality wasn't worse and it's actually good. Not as polished as the first season of course, but the 3rd, 4th, and 5th seasons still hold up. Last edited by Refractive Reflections; 10-31-2014 at 02:22 AM.
$Refractive Reflections is offline$

10-31-2014, 03:44 PM	#6
Lisardo Stone Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 702	Acceptable based on the amount of episodes they had to crank out, also with the multiple animation studios they were outsourced too (already there's a lack of continuity). Tho with Batman TAS, there were less mistakes, and also the episodes were outsourced to multiple Asian animation studios. But at least there they fixed the mistakes later. I guess with TMNT there was too many to fix..? Though it would have been nice had it been done. __________________ "Look I'm not gonna stop doing what's right just because it's not appreciated." -Leo

11-02-2014, 04:23 PM	#7
THGhost Puppet Master Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: UK Posts: 2,825	I didn't work in the 80s TV industry, so I personally cannot comment on whether or not these kinds of errors were acceptable. But I do believe that they should have been more careful. However, they do add to the overall charm of the cartoons of the 80s. I've even seen cartoons from the 90s with similar errors. If you want a cartoon with so many animation errors that they've become notoriously known throughout popular culture, watch the original G1 Transformers cartoon. __________________ - - - 1990 > OotS > TMNT 2014 > Turtles Forever > TMNT III > SotO > TMNT 2007 "Can't we all just get along?" - pennydreadful "...bitchy people are what make fan forums insufferable when they don't need to be." - B-Man "Act like freakin' adults for goodness sake." - Jester "Tough guys with tiny voices." - Commenter 42

11-03-2014, 12:45 AM	#8
ProactiveMan Spooky ghost Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Western Australia Posts: 2,266	From what I understand, fixing animation errors pre-digital was reasonably expensive and time consuming. They had to prioritise fixes, and they couldn't get all of them. I guess it wasn't a matter of acceptability, but more feasibility. __________________ ProactiveMan!

10-31-2014, 11:57 AM	#3
IndigoErth Team Blue Boy Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: U.S., East Coast Posts: 16,293	It was the times. Most animation back then, outside maybe the likes of Disney and similar, doesn't seem to have been taken too seriously as an art form to concern itself with perfection. It was what it was, it was fun, if imperfect so be it. For back then, it's fine. When they've got multiple people pumping out frame after frame, maybe there just wasn't the budget to insist on exact attention to detail and perfection in terms of the time it would cost to see to it. Animation has simply become more of a serious art form, more people getting into careers that take it seriously, making the audience expect more and making the faults in the old stuff a lot more noticeable.

10-31-2014, 01:59 PM	#4
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,831	Most cartoons back in the 80's had animation errors. You just probably didn't notice it back then. It was probably more obvious with TMNT simply because of the color bandana's.

11-03-2014, 09:15 PM	#9
AnarkyLantern Foot Soldier Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 154	Understandable. TV animation usually have some retakes available but it comes down to what gets caught in time and what gets priority. There's a lot of technical innovations that have minimized animation errors in recent years. Color mistakes can be easily fixed due to digital coloring. Ftp servers can allow for animation to be seen within hours of being drawn. I think that's why the main place you see regular animation errors now are in lower budgeted, non-US productions. I don't know if this is still the case but at one point, anime series would have some animation errors fixed before video releases. __________________ Quickie video of Fishface's trip to Disneyland: www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5bGIhuHaps

11-04-2014, 12:42 PM	#10
pannoni1 Foot Elite Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: USA Posts: 3,447	Continuing errors: No. It really skews off the overall arc between not just the episodes themselves, but also the course of the series. Its one of the weaknesses of the OT for that matter. More technical errors such as coloring and voice mistakes are more comical which add a bit to the tone of the show and I can get a laugh out of them however. Its more forgiving that many of these were animated in Korea or China (and even Europe for that matter) were inferior compared to those animated in Japan, which by the late 1980s had a reputation for quality animation. Something out of Toei or TMS will beat anything out of A-1 or MW Dublin anyday. I feel that since many episodes back then were recorded often just six months prior to airing (compared to today where its a year up to as much as 18 months), and combined with more episodes in certain seasons, just doesn't give the time to revise and polish. But unfortunately this short window led to more substantial errors in terms of misinterpreting the storyboards, which while partly a writer's error, also no doubt had errors based on animation. __________________ http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/sho...d.php?t=37065- MY WANT LIST TMNT FAN CLUB LINK: http://sot.ag/gCjK/ 30 years of Turtle Power!

11-04-2014, 01:19 PM	#11
Whatswiththeheadbands? The Weed of Crime Join Date: May 2013 Location: The Shadow's Sanctum Posts: 3,007	No. It shows that the series didn't get the best attention quality wise IMO. Although, G1 Transformers had the absolute worst animation errors. Check out Blue Optimus Prime __________________ Who knows what Evil lurks in the hearts of Men? The Shadow knows...

11-04-2014, 07:01 PM	#12
ProactiveMan Spooky ghost Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Western Australia Posts: 2,266	I don't know that much about the production of TMNT specifically but I know a bit about how other shows were produced for TV at the time. Apparently the Korean studios were under so much pressure to crank out animation that they would shoot cel set-ups without using the glass cover. You can see a lot of drop shadows and weird flairs of light in shows like the Simpsons and Ren & Stimpy, due to gaps between the cels when they were shot. __________________ ProactiveMan!

11-05-2014, 10:20 AM	#13
tmntpower1988 Stone Warrior Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Ireland Posts: 793	What was up with Shredder in Michelangelo's Birthday?

11-07-2014, 04:19 AM	#15
pferreira Foot Elite Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,514	I don't think all the animation errors were acceptable. When I look at the quality of animation in the OT I compare it to other cartoons from that period. Ninja Turtles did have more animation errors than The Real Ghostbusters. Having said that I think what irritates me the most is that the show being given to various animation companies meant that that show always looked off model. The style of animation not being consistent episode to episode annoyed me more as a child than the wrong colour bandanna. Ironically it was Fred Wolf's own Ireland studio who were also guilty of this. Wasn't the show produced in Ireland as well? Would that make the OT a British co-operation? It would interesting if someone posted caps from all the animation studios who worked on the show just so we can see the differences between them.

11-07-2014, 04:33 AM	#16
~~Davetello~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Greater Glasgow, Scotland, The Ununited Kingdom Posts: 1,712	I think it's fine, and probably even adds some charm to the show. It's quirky. Let's be honest, the original show wasn't exactly intended to be a literary masterpiece, so we can be more forgiving of animation errors. It takes nothing away from the show, and as I said it probably adds to its appeal.