Which turtle is the most dispensable?

[judasghost]

Originally Posted by DarthRaphael

I think you guys have Raph all wrong. He is always the one who wants to take out bad guys even when the others don't or can't. He is the physical strength of the team. Seems he can go longer than the others in a fight. He is also super loyal. This is of course any version of him except the OT.

Raph ditches the group in one movie, gets captured in another, and tries to kill Leo in yet another movie. A lot of his choices and second-guessing get the team into trouble in Nick, making him the second biggest liability next to Mikey in that incarnation. You have a weird definition of 'loyal'.

[DarthRaphael]

He's not the smartest, but the most passionate.

[jett]

Leo and don are the two most important of course. Mikey or raph aren't as important and had to choose either one of them then I'd get rid of raphael. Yeah he's strong and he can be funny at times but overall he's the angry A-hole of the group that never listens and his eager to fight gets them in trouble sometimes. Besides, michaelangelo is funnier and has a better personality anyway.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Bingo. That's pretty much what I said, too. Raph may be strong, but that's about ALL he has going for him. His hot-head nature tends to make him more of a liability than an asset. Also- when he disobeys a DIRECT ORDER from Splinter because he's getting pissy at Leo, there's a problem.

[Leo656]

If any of them are expendable - and I'd argue that none of them are - but I'd say even though he's the "Heart" of the team and the most popular, Mikey doesn't add anything except jokes. Like, maybe his goofy good-nature helps keep the team together during the tough times, but as far as being an actual physical asset, nah. He exists for Marketing Potential, the jokes and the catch-phrases and to keep little kids watching, and that's it. The other three could conceivably handle just about any situation without him.

That said, it probably IS his good nature that would keep them all from eventually drifting apart due to their vastly different personalities, but strictly in the sense of, "Assuming they're still a team, could the other three handle any given situation they'd face without him?" Yes, they could. He actually has made things worse in the short-term a bunch of times by being such a bungler.

Raph is just dumb muscle, so he's the next most-expendable. His main role is to conflict with Leonardo and whine about he'd be a better leader even though, holy sh*t, not on your life. He exhibits little to no leadership quality or ability and is all about himself most of the time. He doesn't really want to be in charge, he just wants what Big Brother has, which is childish and annoying.

Not that I'd get rid of any of them. What makes the dynamic work so well is the conflicting personalities, after all. That said, as far as strictly who is most capable, the two Turtles who Think Before They Act would clearly be way ahead of the two that Never Do.

[pennydreadful]

I don't think any of them are dispensable, really - all of them are essential parts of a whole. Each of them brings something unique to the team; realistically you could take any of them out of the equation and they'd struggle along, but the team functions at its best when all of them are together. Like Splinter says in the 2007 movie - each of them has their own strengths and weaknesses, each of them is strong in areas where their brothers are weak and vice versa.

I don't think Raph really deserves the flak that he's getting either. Is he a hothead? Sure. But so is Wolverine and we don't consider that that really makes him a dispensable member of the Xmen. It's easy to just write him off as the meathead with a bad temper - particularly when certain incarnations paint him as only that, and he can get short shrift in terms of showing the other parts of him (I feel - particularly in the Nick series).

But nobody is more protective of his brothers than Raph is. Whether he disagrees with them or not, no matter how badly he argues with his family, he'll fight to the death to protect them. Does he lose his temper and storm off and make bad choices sometimes? Of course he does. But a good character always has flaws. Each of the guys has their own flaw.

Mikey's is that he doesn't take things seriously most of the time - the world is a joke to him. He lacks focus and doesn't always direct his potential; his energies are scattered.

Leo's is that he can be arrogant, too serious and doesn't always consider his brothers feelings when he gets super-focused on a mission. He sees the big picture but doesn't always focus on the details.

Donnie's is similar in that he will often get drawn into the details, rather than the big picture. He's the smartest and most reserved but that can then lead to scenarios where he is introverted and drawn into his own world and his inventions while ignoring what's going on outside of that. I'd also argue that as the gentlest Turtle, he could be considered to be the least ferocious in a fight/have the least passion about the warrior aspects of their training.

The problem as I see it is that Raphs flaws are the easiest go-to for writers when it comes to finding something to create drama or tension for plot purposes, or to create a cause-and-effect scenario to move the plot along.

So yeah - back to my original point: Raph has a lot of traits which make him an asset to the team. As much as he fights with his brothers, he's still depicted as being very close with them (particularly in the 2k3 series). He is the most emotional Turtle; while that means that he is prone to outbursts, it also means he has a great deal of compassion - he's always very distressed in any incarnation when his brothers are hurt, he goes out of his way to help others (see: Lone Raph & Cub, Touch & Go from the 2k3 series, as well as the fact that he commits to preventing crime by taking on the Nightwatcher gig in the 2k7 flick). He is reckless and doesn't always think - but he's also proactive, passionate, driven and results-focused. That recklessness also correlates into bravery as he's not afraid to put himself at risk in order to achieve his goals.

It's a question of maturity. They're teenagers; most of the time they've always been portrayed as teenagers. I've always felt that Raph had a great deal of potential and that the question of whether he overcame his inner darkness or not would impact whether he continued to be a loner, or whether he would become a leader/second-in-command in his own right.

I'd argue that while he is portrayed in the Nick series as not wanting the leadership role (because he's unable to put his brothers in situations where their lives are risked), this isn't universal across the board in all of his incarnations. I also think that his constant challenging of Leo is sometimes less to do with wanting to be leader and more to do with the fact that he doesn't like being told what to do. Leo doesn't always take his brothers' opinions into consideration when he's giving orders, and I think that rubs Raph the wrong way. Raph always prefers to go from Point A to Point B via the shortest route. It's simply a question of having a different POV when problem-solving.

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by DarthRaphael

He's not the smartest, but the most passionate.

Passionate without rationale thinking is pretty much dispensable imo.

[pennydreadful]

But thinking without passion is also a flaw.

That's the thing - all of the guys have very human, relatable flaws. You don't need to be a mutant turtle to have a bad temper, or to sometimes be arrogant or to take hardly anything seriously.

You probably wouldn't find a single person on these boards who doesn't have at least one of the flaws that the guys does.

Pobody's nerfect, as they say.

[Leo656]

I've got enough of Raph's flaws and enough self-awareness to know that he's kind of overrated in general, that's my position.

See, lots of people who claim they have a lot of Raph in them embrace that, and in turn, embrace him. I cant stand that sh*t about myself and I aspire to something greater, because nobody should actually want to be like that guy. His behavior, by and large, is not very good.

It's why I'm more a Leo guy in general. It's better to aspire to reach greatness, or an ideal, and to fail or come up short, than it is to say, "This is me, deal with it, I am who I am and I'm not interested in changing." There's nothing noble or heroic in that, it's an admission of self-defeat.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I've got enough of Raph's flaws and enough self-awareness to know that he's kind of overrated in general, that's my position.

See, lots of people who claim they have a lot of Raph in them embrace that, and in turn, embrace him. I cant stand that sh*t about myself and I aspire to something greater, because nobody should actually want to be like that guy. His behavior, by and large, is not very good.

It's why I'm more a Leo guy in general. It's better to aspire to reach greatness, or an ideal, and to fail or come up short, than it is to say, "This is me, deal with it, I am who I am and I'm not interested in changing." There's nothing noble or heroic in that, it's an admission of self-defeat.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. Perfectly explains why Leo is my favorite despite my being the most like Raph.

& frankly, the people who say they're like Raph yet glorify him, probably aren't actually anything like Raph at all. Uncontrollable anger is a terrible burden to bear. You know better, but these primal instincts drive you to hostility regardless. You hurt people you care about. You cause yourself unending emotional grief. It's not cool at all.

[Leo656]

It is also very likely why you and I get along quite well, despite often having very large gaps of opinion and being quite different people in general.

See people? It can happen!

[IndigoErth]

I couldn't get rid of anyone, including ol' pain in the ass , I mean who would Leo fuss with then?

Personally I've never seen Leo as arrogant (ok, 2007 made him look cocky, but I've always kind of discounted that movie), I just take him as being so focused on not wanting to fail or let anyone down, especially Splinter. And youngsters don't tend to know how to lead without appearing bossy sometimes, esp when dealing with equal peers who may want to disregard someone's role as leader. And sometimes they do brush him off too easily and a kid may not know how to maintain or recover order of the team he needs to be leading when that happens. And if he can't be an effective leader, then in his mind he may have let everyone down.

Hell, even in this movie in that one scene he's yelling "Guys we need a plan!" NOPE. Were you saying something Leo?

I agree a big part of Raph is being the sort of personality that doesn't like being told what to do. So that inevitably makes the dynamic hard for him. But it should also be a part of his own maturing and development, that while he may not be fond of it, he can recognize when he needs to step back and allow the better sides of him be an asset instead of wrestling for control.

[pennydreadful]

We kind of do see Raph aspiring to be better though (or at least, that's my perception). When he gets to the point where he loses his temper so badly that he breaks Leo's swords or nearly bashes Mikey's brains in with a length of pipe - that's when he pulls up and realizes that he's gone too far and he does need to have more control. He admits that he's messed up and reigns it in.

He has a lot of outbursts, but I think his actual out-of-control moments are fewer and more far between. And that's why he storms off when he does get angry - because when he gets into that headspace, he goes off by himself to cool off so he doesn't lash out and cause more damage.

I dunno, that's just the way I see it. Powder and Leo both make good points - being angry isn't a desirable character trait, and isn't fun for the person who has it or anyone around them. It's certainly not something to aspire to. I do honestly feel that Raph does envy Leo's control and his ability to stay calm. Maybe that's part of why he always argues with him - to try to crack that cool exterior and prove that Leo's control isn't perfect either?

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I've got enough of Raph's flaws and enough self-awareness to know that he's kind of overrated in general, that's my position.

See, lots of people who claim they have a lot of Raph in them embrace that, and in turn, embrace him. I cant stand that sh*t about myself and I aspire to something greater, because nobody should actually want to be like that guy. His behavior, by and large, is not very good.

It's why I'm more a Leo guy in general. It's better to aspire to reach greatness, or an ideal, and to fail or come up short, than it is to say, "This is me, deal with it, I am who I am and I'm not interested in changing." There's nothing noble or heroic in that, it's an admission of self-defeat.

THANK YOU FOR THIS.

Nick Raph is possibly the worst about this, as well, and yet frighteningly he seems to be considered one of the better versions.

Although I disagree with your previous point that Mikey is the most popular. I might think he's possibly the most expendable (Raph a close second) but I'm pretty Raph is the most popular.

[Leo656]

I think Raph and Mikey are each the "most popular" with a different set. Mikey has always been the one the little kids emulated the most - as anyone who constantly yelled "Cowabunga!" or "Gnarly, Dude!" on the playground with their friends back in the day can attest - but just a few years later, kids start to adopt Raphael as "Their Turtle" during their "Angsty Teen" phase. It seems that most people don't pick a "Real" favorite until they outgrow all that stuff in their late-teens. At that point, yeah, they usually will either pick or stay with Raphael because he's "cooler" than the nerd or the uptight, bossy one.

So yeah, I'll agree that I think Raphael is probably most popular In General while Mikey is most popular with kids.

And I'll back up what Powder said, I've known a few guys who self-identified as "Raphaels". They totally envisioned themselves as too-cool-for-school, knuckle-cracking, toothpick-chewing "lone wolf" bad-asses, but, they were really just assh*les, and Raph was the Turtle that happened to bear the closest resemblance to themselves. More an issue of narcissism and posturing than anything else. Not everyone, obviously, but it's... kind of irritatingly common. You see it a lot with Wolverine fans, too.

[Rooish]

How do you explain the adults who still like Mike best?

[Leo656]

Oh I'unno, people like all different things, there's never Just One Reason.

I was just commenting on how a lot of self-described "Raph Types" tend to fit a pattern, but that's not always the case.

I guess people who prefer Mikey probably tend to be more laid back and upbeat in general, I'unno. It's not a blanket analysis. Like, not all Don fans are uber-geeks and not all Leo's are uptight bossy types. And not all Raph fans are "Raph Types". It's just something you tend to see *more* in Raphael's case, so that's what I was getting into before.

[Gunpowder]

Well, I see myself in all of them except for Leo. I'm a workout buff who'll get frustrated over the littlest things; I'm a studious Grammar Nazi whose friends get mad at him for correcting them (*cough* several times per minute); and, in the right environment, I'm the most effervescent/carefree person you've ever seen. But I'm not the bossy type in the slightest, so Leo isn't my guy, unfortunately.

That said, I think Leo's the most vital to the team, considering he's the most dedicated one there is. Take him away, and the other 3 lose their motivation. Donnie's absolutely necessary for fairly obvious reasons. They need brains on their side.

That leaves Mikey and Raph as the two contenders for most "dispensable." I could list pros and cons for each; but all in all, I couldn't imagine the TMNT with only 3 members. So I can't decide. But if I had a gun to my head, I'd say Mikey. True that Raph's anger issues are basically at the root of every problem between the four of them...but he's also a better fighter. Mikey's funny, sure, but that doesn't really "help" them much. And his fighting style is the most inferior in almost every incarnation, so losing him would be the least detrimental. And I personally think Raph's drama makes things seem more realistic, in that it makes them actually seem like brothers with the way they argue. Open to objection, but that's my input.

Originally Posted by Leo656

And I'll back up what Powder said, I've known a few guys who self-identified as "Raphaels". They totally envisioned themselves as too-cool-for-school, knuckle-cracking, toothpick-chewing "lone wolf" bad-asses, but, they were really just assh*les, and Raph was the Turtle that happened to bear the closest resemblance to themselves. More an issue of narcissism and posturing than anything else. Not everyone, obviously, but it's... kind of irritatingly common. You see it a lot with Wolverine fans, too.

True. Very true. But Raphael is the most similar out of the four to that persona, so can't exactly blame them for associating themselves with him. Raph's kind of an a-hole, too. I see where you're comin' from, though; people shouldn't falsely identify themselves like that. Plenty of posers out there, after all.

I like Raph the most, but it's mostly because I always love that aggressive "do-it-yourself" character; not necessarily because I relate to him.

[Leo656]

Note that I said they "envisioned" themselves as that kind of bad-ass. For most of them that I knew, self-identifying with a tough-guy cartoon character and having some kind of Hot Topic piercing was as "bad-ass" as they'd ever get.

"I 'get' Raph so much, man, he's just like me!"

"DUDE. You fill scripts at Rite-Aid, and you got mad at your Dad and punched a hole in your wall ONE TIME. Your MOM bought you a CAR, you don't have any siblings to scrap with, and you live in the goddamn suburbs. You *happen* to like the color red. SHUT. UP."

Ahhh, high school. But we all knew someone like that, amIrite?

[IndigoErth]

Ah, the youngsters in particular who want to put on that tough guy front. There are certainly Raph-type personalities out there, but for all those who aren't but just wish to be the tough guy, it might be a bit healthier to want to emulate Raph's sort of qualities that can be used for good rather than just looking like a hard ass. I could easily see him being a role model to being a go-getter, having the strength not to bend to pressures you shouldn't, like peer pressure, and being passionate about what you believe in - if people can look past the attitude.