Has the "it's for kids' mentality been holding TMNT back?

[Davetello]

Yes. Of course it has. How could it not?

There's nothing wrong with writing or creating stuff that's aimed at young children. Slapstick and light-hearted is fine. But why can't we have different iterations targeted at different demographics? These kids will grow up one day too, and many of them will wish to see a more serious interpretation of the TMNT. I don't buy that there's no market for a more mature version of the turtles. Not only would many of us long-term fans embrace it, but if marketed well it would pull in adults who don't currently have an interest in the turtles.

If it was distributed via something with a reputation for quality and given free reign- HBO television or Vertigo comics, for example - the things that could be done with this franchise are almost limitless. There's so much untapped potential there. There is a lot that can be done to make these guys and their story a transcendent property in many ways. If it were to happen they could finally shake off their 'childish' stigma.

We have a clandestine ninja clan led by a ruthless master warrior. On the other side of the fence we have four animal outcasts trained by a rat - a rat who just so happens to be an enemy of said ninja master and is hell bent on obtaining vengeance for his own dead master.We have one guy who is level-headed and has incredible levels of focus. Another who's filled with almost uncontrollable rage and anger against the world. One more whose more serene and friendly personality is the antithesis of the previous guy's. And a final turtle whose intelligence and genius seemingly knows no bounds. Four stereotypical, but very untapped, personalities. Infinite layers of meat could be put on these bones. Imagine the character development that the heroes and villains could go through? Heck, like all good shows there wouldn't even be such a clear dichotomy between villains and heroes. The show would blur the line and challenge the viewer to see the good in the 'villain' and the bad in the 'hero'. The potential character development for this property is incredible: flashbacks to Saki as a child, and his inability to really get over Nagi's death - cool-headed lethal warrior on the outside, but full of rage, hate and spite on the inside. Splinter's similar flashbacks to his life with Yoshi and Tang Shen. After the turtles' initial failure to kill Shredder on the roof, they begin to feel that insatiable quench for revenge through Splinter and his pain. And so forth.

The things that could be done with this franchise are incredible. More creative minds than mine could come up with all sorts of ideas - it's what they'd be paid to do. Imagine an HBO or Netflix series of 7 seasons of 13 eps. The first two or three seasons could adapt and follow the main parts of Mirage - the first few eps could set the stage and develop the origin stories, and by the time it gets to the season 3 finale we could be watching City at War. & after that it could evolve to new stories and interpretations.

I don't buy into the claim that "they're turtles so the property is too unrealistic or immature to be taken seriously". The X-Men are unrealistic, Spider-Man is unrealistic. Heck, Martian Manhunter is even more unrealistic than the TMNT. It just takes a little open-mindedness between creators and consumers alike to do this franchise the justice it is so desperately waiting on.

Seriously, a Netflix or HBO inspired mature TMNT TV series would be the greatest thing of all time. It will never happen, but I fantasise about it daily. What an incredible ride it would be, if done with quality.

We all grow up eventually. These guys are perpetually 15 or 16 and it's high time that they became adult ninja turtles.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

And is it a good thing or a bad thing?

Something being "held back" is not a good thing, it means that it's not being allowed to live up to it's full potential.

Does having TMNT things primarily being made for children a bad thing? Well in the broader cultural sense it might seem like a bad thing (Star Wars is often said to be kids' thing), but people are more likely to attached to something as children as opposed to adults. This will lead to a niche of adults who will remain interested in TMNT, which opens up a market of more adult oriented TMNT material, the IDW series is hardly made for children (though not unacceptable for children to read) and it's probably the best TMNT material out there.

So in short, making "Kids' stuff" is needed to make sure there is a steady fanbase, and while that might create the stigma of "just for kids", that does not prevent adult oriented TMNT stuff from being produced.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Davetello

Seriously, a Netflix or HBO inspired mature TMNT TV series would be the greatest thing of all time. It will never happen

Shhh, don't say that, it must happen, if anyone in that business has enough daring and guts to try, they just gotta do this! Everyone ask Santa for it this year, maybe he'll pull some strings.


Seriously though, keep the "kids stuff" around, it's perfectly enjoyable no matter your age, but let the Turtles grow up a bit too.

I mean, it's easier to leave adult characters stuck in time and unaging since the progress is much slower once you're grown anyhow, but for characters perpetually stuck in their teens, feels a little stifling after this long. (Poor things, seven years of being a teen was hard enough, these guys have been stuck there for 30 years. lol)

[Brooke507]

I want the TMNT fandom to have a balance to it. I understand that eventually kids are going to grow up and they're going to want to see more mature content, and that's fine, but I don't want them to make it overly raunchy. I still believe in being tasteful. yet at the same time, I don't want the fandom to be so overly strict or too innocent that it seems like a barney episode.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Brooke507

I want the TMNT fandom to have a balance to it. I understand that eventually kids are going to grow up and they're going to want to see more mature content, and that's fine, but I don't want them to make it overly raunchy. I still believe in being tasteful. yet at the same time, I don't want the fandom to be so overly strict or too innocent that it seems like a barney episode.

I think the reason this is being brought up in the first place, though, is that TMNT was born from more mature content (nothing too raunchy; actually of a pretty tasteful, though indie-influenced variety).

The child-focused elements came after, but unlike nearly every other comic/superhero franchise now -- which actually were kids' properties from the get-go -- it's kind of precluded those adult elements from ever hitting the mainstream. (It certainly doesn't have the multiple target demographics DC and Marvel properties do, with cartoons running alongside relatively adult films, live-action shows, etc; even the 2014 movie was aimed at the toy crowd; the IDW comic is also fairly declawed and subject to content restrictions leveled b Nickelodeon.)

It's a shame.

[CJRocky]

Originally Posted by Davetello

Yes. Of course it has. How could it not?

There's nothing wrong with writing or creating stuff that's aimed at young children. Slapstick and light-hearted is fine. But why can't we have different iterations targeted at different demographics? These kids will grow up one day too, and many of them will wish to see a more serious interpretation of the TMNT. I don't buy that there's no market for a more mature version of the turtles. Not only would many of us long-term fans embrace it, but if marketed well it would pull in adults who don't currently have an interest in the turtles.

If it was distributed via something with a reputation for quality and given free reign- HBO television or Vertigo comics, for example - the things that could be done with this franchise are almost limitless. There's so much untapped potential there. There is a lot that can be done to make these guys and their story a transcendent property in many ways. If it were to happen they could finally shake off their 'childish' stigma.

We have a clandestine ninja clan led by a ruthless master warrior. On the other side of the fence we have four animal outcasts trained by a rat - a rat who just so happens to be an enemy of said ninja master and is hell bent on obtaining vengeance for his own dead master.We have one guy who is level-headed and has incredible levels of focus. Another who's filled with almost uncontrollable rage and anger against the world. One more whose more serene and friendly personality is the antithesis of the previous guy's. And a final turtle whose intelligence and genius seemingly knows no bounds. Four stereotypical, but very untapped, personalities. Infinite layers of meat could be put on these bones. Imagine the character development that the heroes and villains could go through? Heck, like all good shows there wouldn't even be such a clear dichotomy between villains and heroes. The show would blur the line and challenge the viewer to see the good in the 'villain' and the bad in the 'hero'. The potential character development for this property is incredible: flashbacks to Saki as a child, and his inability to really get over Nagi's death - cool-headed lethal warrior on the outside, but full of rage, hate and spite on the inside. Splinter's similar flashbacks to his life with Yoshi and Tang Shen. After the turtles' initial failure to kill Shredder on the roof, they begin to feel that insatiable quench for revenge through Splinter and his pain. And so forth.

The things that could be done with this franchise are incredible. More creative minds than mine could come up with all sorts of ideas - it's what they'd be paid to do. Imagine an HBO or Netflix series of 7 seasons of 13 eps. The first two or three seasons could adapt and follow the main parts of Mirage - the first few eps could set the stage and develop the origin stories, and by the time it gets to the season 3 finale we could be watching City at War. & after that it could evolve to new stories and interpretations.

I don't buy into the claim that "they're turtles so the property is too unrealistic or immature to be taken seriously". The X-Men are unrealistic, Spider-Man is unrealistic. Heck, Martian Manhunter is even more unrealistic than the TMNT. It just takes a little open-mindedness between creators and consumers alike to do this franchise the justice it is so desperately waiting on.

Seriously, a Netflix or HBO inspired mature TMNT TV series would be the greatest thing of all time. It will never happen, but I fantasise about it daily. What an incredible ride it would be, if done with quality.

We all grow up eventually. These guys are perpetually 15 or 16 and it's high time that they became adult ninja turtles.

i agree with all of this.

look at it this way, batman had the adam west version that was campy fun, then the tim burton version that was darker but still good for kids and now the nolan version that is more serious and realistic. three completley different versions of the same property. somewhere along the line somebody realised just because its a comic story about a man dressing up as a bat dosent mean it cant be done in a serious tone.

on film turtles has always had either the fun version or the fun with a dash of slightly darker version. they have never gone past that and like davetello said just because its about Turtles that do Ninjitsu dosent mean it cant be done in a serious tone.

[jenna]

The terms "dark" and "gritty" are thrown about very freely in relation to turtles, but I think mature audiences are looking for more than darkness and grit. Like soul, substance and character growth. That's why I love IDW.

To answer the question: yes. The fact that the heroes are talking turtles seems to be an insurmountable hurdle for producers to push beyond the "it's for kids" reasoning. I mean, even Transformers, which came from a toy line received more adult treatment than TMNT, which came from a comic with a fairly adult edge. I don't think it's possible to get to the heart of TMNT without embracing a mature audience, because the origin is centred around murder, grief and the need for vengeance.

And as long as the OT is considered the source material by the masses we won't see much beyond it.

Originally Posted by Davetello

Yes. Of course it has. How could it not?

There's nothing wrong with writing or creating stuff that's aimed at young children. Slapstick and light-hearted is fine. But why can't we have different iterations targeted at different demographics? These kids will grow up one day too, and many of them will wish to see a more serious interpretation of the TMNT. I don't buy that there's no market for a more mature version of the turtles. Not only would many of us long-term fans embrace it, but if marketed well it would pull in adults who don't currently have an interest in the turtles.

If it was distributed via something with a reputation for quality and given free reign- HBO television or Vertigo comics, for example - the things that could be done with this franchise are almost limitless. There's so much untapped potential there. There is a lot that can be done to make these guys and their story a transcendent property in many ways. If it were to happen they could finally shake off their 'childish' stigma.

We have a clandestine ninja clan led by a ruthless master warrior. On the other side of the fence we have four animal outcasts trained by a rat - a rat who just so happens to be an enemy of said ninja master and is hell bent on obtaining vengeance for his own dead master.We have one guy who is level-headed and has incredible levels of focus. Another who's filled with almost uncontrollable rage and anger against the world. One more whose more serene and friendly personality is the antithesis of the previous guy's. And a final turtle whose intelligence and genius seemingly knows no bounds. Four stereotypical, but very untapped, personalities. Infinite layers of meat could be put on these bones. Imagine the character development that the heroes and villains could go through? Heck, like all good shows there wouldn't even be such a clear dichotomy between villains and heroes. The show would blur the line and challenge the viewer to see the good in the 'villain' and the bad in the 'hero'. The potential character development for this property is incredible: flashbacks to Saki as a child, and his inability to really get over Nagi's death - cool-headed lethal warrior on the outside, but full of rage, hate and spite on the inside. Splinter's similar flashbacks to his life with Yoshi and Tang Shen. After the turtles' initial failure to kill Shredder on the roof, they begin to feel that insatiable quench for revenge through Splinter and his pain. And so forth.

The things that could be done with this franchise are incredible. More creative minds than mine could come up with all sorts of ideas - it's what they'd be paid to do. Imagine an HBO or Netflix series of 7 seasons of 13 eps. The first two or three seasons could adapt and follow the main parts of Mirage - the first few eps could set the stage and develop the origin stories, and by the time it gets to the season 3 finale we could be watching City at War. & after that it could evolve to new stories and interpretations.

I don't buy into the claim that "they're turtles so the property is too unrealistic or immature to be taken seriously". The X-Men are unrealistic, Spider-Man is unrealistic. Heck, Martian Manhunter is even more unrealistic than the TMNT. It just takes a little open-mindedness between creators and consumers alike to do this franchise the justice it is so desperately waiting on.

Seriously, a Netflix or HBO inspired mature TMNT TV series would be the greatest thing of all time. It will never happen, but I fantasise about it daily. What an incredible ride it would be, if done with quality.

We all grow up eventually. These guys are perpetually 15 or 16 and it's high time that they became adult ninja turtles.

Yes to all of this. Very well said.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by jenna

The terms "dark" and "gritty" are thrown about very freely in relation to turtles, but I think mature audiences are looking for more than darkness and grit. Like soul, substance and character growth. That's why I love IDW.

The version that is cast aside for being nothing more than "dark & gritty" has more soul, substance, & character growth than any other version, including IDW.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Powder

The version that is cast aside for being nothing more than "dark & gritty" has more soul, substance, & character growth than any other version, including IDW.

Which version are you referring to? I probably love that one too....

[Powder]

Mirage, of course.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Powder

Mirage, of course.

Oh yeah... Definite favourite. Shame it is so overlooked.

I referenced IDW as I was referring to the current incarnations, but agree that Mirage ticks those boxes, and by extension so does does 2k3, being so heavily influenced by Vol 1.

[victory_angel]

I hate to say this...but perhaps Disney should pick up the rights to TMNT. '

I mean think about it, they own Marvel now, they own Star Wars now. But they also leave those properties seperate from there usual Disney fair. So no I doub't you'd never see a Kingdom hearts where your team consists of Sora, Donald, and Han Solo or Wolverine though it would be cool if that was possible.


But back in the day Disney did have a cartoon show known as Gargoyles. It was a serious cartoon and while it still plot fair was light enough for kids to enjoy there were still situations and plots that could be enjoyed by adults and stuff.

All the characters were well developed, and in a way the characters were similar to the Cast of TMNT.

And I believe I've heard there were a couple of episodes that were shown in school class rooms as lesson. For example one of the episodes in the first season was called "A Deadly Force" one of the characters finds a guns and starts playing with it, but then it goes off and he is horrified to learn that he has just hurt his clans human ally. The whole moment wasn't kidified, it was seriously done. And in the end when he appologized to their human ally about it, she forgives him and also admits that it was partly her fault because she had left her fire arm in the open where it could have been found.

And at least an episode following this she is shown hobbling around on crutches, and in a much later episode she is taking her service gun on out of a locked box.

So if that isn't enough proof that Disney is capable of giving TMNT the justice it deserves.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Ah, Gargoyles. One of my favorites, and for that very reason. And like TMNT it was heavy on themes of vengeance and forgiveness, family, and friendship. The main characters are outcasts hidden from the world just as the turtles are, and there are even some adult plots dealing with romance, respecting people who are different, and issues of mercy, honor, compassion, etc. Disney did it once, they could certainly do it again! (And the possibilities for crossovers of these two IP's are just drool-worthy, IMHO....) Also, Gargoyles had lots of fun Easter Egg shout-outs to their other properties, so we already know that any TMNT incarnation they did would probably have a few fun gags tossed in for die-hard fans!

[Luckyday]

Disney for some reason is....getting it's act together. I don't how but it with Gravity Falls, Wonder Over Yonder, Phineas and Ferb, and treatment of the Marvel Universe, the channel is slowly returning to it's former glory.

I honestly would to prefer Cartoon Network but 6 years ago, I would never even dare Cartoon Network with past cancel shows like Sym-Bionic Titan but now seems like anything is possible on that network.

Have you watch Regular Show? That show started as another dude show like sanjay and craig and would remain as such had it been on Nick but on Cartoon Network it flourish and actual allow character develop.

What is that Disney and CN doing right with their shows and what is Nick doing wrong?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

The thing is Disney goes through cycles of really GREAT stuff, followed by stuff that is- not so great. It usually happens every time a new generation grows up and enters the industry. We get a few years of mediocre, generic crap as older talent runs out of ideas, and then some fresh blood comes into the Disney talent stable, and WHAM! We get some amazing stuff from the Mouse House. It's been going on since the earliest days of the company.

[Guitar_Raph]

Demographs? No sir, I'm a Republican!


Seroiusly, I like TMNT in my own unique way.

[Ravenshell]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

I hate to say this...but perhaps Disney should pick up the rights to TMNT. '

I mean think about it, they own Marvel now, they own Star Wars now. But they also leave those properties seperate from there usual Disney fair. So no I doub't you'd never see a Kingdom hearts where your team consists of Sora, Donald, and Han Solo or Wolverine though it would be cool if that was possible.


But back in the day Disney did have a cartoon show known as Gargoyles. It was a serious cartoon and while it still plot fair was light enough for kids to enjoy there were still situations and plots that could be enjoyed by adults and stuff.

All the characters were well developed, and in a way the characters were similar to the Cast of TMNT.

And I believe I've heard there were a couple of episodes that were shown in school class rooms as lesson. For example one of the episodes in the first season was called "A Deadly Force" one of the characters finds a guns and starts playing with it, but then it goes off and he is horrified to learn that he has just hurt his clans human ally. The whole moment wasn't kidified, it was seriously done. And in the end when he appologized to their human ally about it, she forgives him and also admits that it was partly her fault because she had left her fire arm in the open where it could have been found.

And at least an episode following this she is shown hobbling around on crutches, and in a much later episode she is taking her service gun on out of a locked box.

So if that isn't enough proof that Disney is capable of giving TMNT the justice it deserves.

And that's Disney's red-headed stepchild. Probably why they didn't even put out the second half of the second season on DVD for 20 years. They really weren't crazy about us Gargs fans. (I'd like to see what other property they made that had a fan-con that ran 12 years, though.)

Disney, at least through the Eisner era, seemed a bit...grabby. They were riding high on their "second Golden Era" and started getting formulaic in their thinking, and that's when they dropped Pixar and started putting out drivel like Chicken Little and Brother Bear and Home on the Range. (As MsMarvelDuckie said.)

So it might be a matter of who's in charge and what kind of minds are on staff at the time (people who have a love for the property AND have good ideas) that would determine if they'd make a good TMNT series or not. If Diz for a hold of it during a slump, it might not do it any justice.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

I think so. The mentatility that Turtles is for Kids, has made people in the general public not give Turtles the respect it deserves.

[LeoRaph]

Disney would be the worst possible thing to happen to TMNT, they would kiddify it up even more than it is now. Think about it, you're Disney you know a kids company...what would you choose as your primary version, cute or serious? The kids version would reign supreme and even if they did a mature version it would be heavily censored barely even reaching the standards of 2K3. Sure they did Gargoyles, and I loved what I saw when it was on but it was still a kids show and to be honest it was still underneath the level of 2K3.

We want a kids show AND a mature version. I don't believe Disney could do a mature version better than WB. WB do great versions of both and they DON'T hold back on the reality. These are ninjas with weapons which actually create a bloody mess, these are mutants forced to live out of normal society with no one else of their kind, freaks who know that is what people see, they are not heroes by choice they do what the have to do when they have to do it, they have no future that IS their reality. There is a lot of pain to their existence and many grey areas to explore. You think Disney has the balls to tell that story? I sure as hell don't.

WB would at least put as much effort into a more mature version as their kids version and give the characters the freedom they need. What's more they would be unique to the WB world and not drowned by the countless marvel/disney/starwars characters.

[Allio]

With that mentality is why we got Power rangers Samurai and Megaforce...the worst shows in teh franchise