10 Ways To Make Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2 Not Suck

[Jester]

Silly question time: Isn't martial arts essentially all about muscle memory? Isn't the point of katas and "wax on, wax off" to train your body to move with out thinking. Isn't that muscle memory primarily taught through scads of repetition of the same forms?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

Like, say, maze-solving?

Maze-solving is a far cry from being able to string together a series of fighting moves designed to be used against an opponent who can study and adapt to them. In other words, the maze doesn't change once you're in it. Each combat situation is unique and requires its own specific series of movements in order to avoid getting creamed. And thank you so much for taking that out of context- the POINT is that those moves ON THEIR OWN are repetitive. The actual USE of them is NOT.

Originally Posted by Jester

Silly question time: Isn't martial arts essentially all about muscle memory? Isn't the point of katas and "wax on, wax off" to train your body to move with out thinking. Isn't that muscle memory primarily taught through scads of repetition of the same forms?

See above. Muscle repetition is one thing, but the ability to learn and apply it is something else entirely.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Maze-solving is a far cry from being able to string together a series of fighting moves designed to be used against an opponent who can study and adapt to them.

Oh, now it's THAT and not just "Their brain isn't evolved enough for such higher thought processes as learning a complicated skill."

Got it.

In other words, the maze doesn't change once you're in it. Each combat situation is unique and requires its own specific series of movements in order to avoid getting creamed. And thank you so much for taking that out of context- the POINT is that those moves ON THEIR OWN are repetitive. The actual USE of them is NOT.

Yes, and once he's mutated, his brain evolves, remembers the movements, and begins to USE them and LEARN them and APPLY them.

The already mutated rat who reads a picture book and then becomes a ninja "master" is, inherently, worse.

RANDOM capitalized WORDS.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Actually, there IS a lot of abstract thinking involved. Just the reasoning of wanting to learn in the first place, or to put it another way, WHY would he want/need to learn it? He has NO reason to "study" (because that's what he would have to actively be doing, NOT just watching) something so far outside his own personal, immediate sphere of experience and survival skills, because as an animal, it literally has nothing to do with him. There is also the spiritual aspect which most certainly is abstract. Animals do not understand the concept of a soul, and cannot comprehend, let alone LEARN the mind-set of spiritual "enlightenment", patience, stillness, and inner peace that "zen" entails. They simply exist without understanding how or why, and thus have no basis for self-awareness that is so essential to any martial art.

I think we're seeing it from very different angles. You're argument is based on the assumption that animals are not self aware. You are also assuming that said animal must consciously make a decision to want to learn.

All I'm saying is that 1. He has watched, and therefore can recall the movements. It requires no want of any kind. I'm not suggesting he is choosing to practice while a normal rat. He simply watched. 2. Once mutated he could put said memories to use. Also, as a mutant, his rat-ness might give him and advantage in achieving zen, not that as a rat he is aware of zen, or has any desire to achieve it.

Also, and my final point, why is it so many people assume animals are not self aware? Most reasearch actually points to the inverse.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

I think we're seeing it from very different angles. You're argument is based on the assumption that animals are not self aware. You are also assuming that said animal must consciously make a decision to want to learn.

All I'm saying is that 1. He has watched, and therefore can recall the movements. It requires no want of any kind. I'm not suggesting he is choosing to practice while a normal rat. He simply watched. 2. Once mutated he could put said memories to use. Also, as a mutant, his rat-ness might give him and advantage in achieving zen, not that as a rat he is aware of zen, or has any desire to achieve it.

Also, and my final point, why is it so many people assume animals are not self aware? Most reasearch actually points to the inverse.

Boom baby.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0711094623.htm

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

Oh, now it's THAT and not just "Their brain isn't evolved enough for such higher thought processes as learning a complicated skill."

Got it.

Yes, and once he's mutated, his brain evolves, remembers the movements, and begins to USE them and LEARN them and APPLY them.

The already mutated rat who reads a picture book and then becomes a ninja "master" is, inherently, worse.

RANDOM capitalized WORDS.

It's not random, Trick, it's called EMPHASIS. I don't like using the italics or bold because I feel this get the point across just as clearly without having to add a bunch of extra fonts and crap. Thank you for being so understanding....


As for the distinction- do you understand how much more is involved with consciously studying a skill rather than learning a pre-determined path? Put a rat in a maze where the end has been changed, and it will still follow the old path, and become confused when it gets to the supposed end. A human, however, would simply realize it has changed and work out the new path with little difficulty. The rat would take far longer to learn the new path due to its already ingrained memory. It's confused because it can't understand how or why it changed.

Learning a martial art is even more difficult, given that each move is studied both on its own and in the context of a combat sequence- and changes each time a new opponent is faced!

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

I think we're seeing it from very different angles. You're argument is based on the assumption that animals are not self aware. You are also assuming that said animal must consciously make a decision to want to learn.

All I'm saying is that 1. He has watched, and therefore can recall the movements. It requires no want of any kind. I'm not suggesting he is choosing to practice while a normal rat. He simply watched. 2. Once mutated he could put said memories to use. Also, as a mutant, his rat-ness might give him and advantage in achieving zen, not that as a rat he is aware of zen, or has any desire to achieve it.

Also, and my final point, why is it so many people assume animals are not self aware? Most reasearch actually points to the inverse.

But that still presupposes he had any reason to remember it in the first place. Most animals are not going to pay enough attention to something that has no bearing on their own needs to actually retain that memory. Basically, he might watch it long enough to determine if the actions present a threat or some form of reward or other direct effect on him, but then ignore it thereafter. A rat's not going to sit and stare at something like that for hours on end any more than a cat or dog would- both would soon lose interest and find some more relevant activity to engage in. Animals aren't motivated to study humans performing what- to them- are nonsensical acts. I'm not saying the book is really much better, but at least it's POSSIBLE.

Animal self-awareness is rudimentary, at best, based on current knowledge. Some HIGHER animals (cats, dogs, pigs, primates, and cetaceans, mostly) have some vague awareness of themselves as an individual, but that's about it. The only ones who approach anything close to a human level of awareness are whales/dolphins, and apes. Now animal emotional development is a different matter- perhaps this is what you're referring to? That is still very little studies, and is a subject for much debate among behaviorists.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

Boom baby.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0711094623.htm

Excellent post.

I read a book on hockey once. I don't play in the NHL.

Ms. Marvel, you also continue to assume that you know the mind of an animal. I will assert, that none of us do, so we are all guessing, even though there is ample evidence of sentience in animals other than Sapiens. We do not fully understand other species, or why they do, what they do. We can only theorize.

In any event, removing Yoshi was stupid. Clearly, it was just more important to watch 4 Shreks beat-box in an elevator, or go for a sleigh ride down the mountain on a semi truck.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

As for the distinction- do you understand how much more is involved with consciously studying a skill rather than learning a pre-determined path? Put a rat in a maze where the end has been changed, and it will still follow the old path, and become confused when it gets to the supposed end. A human, however, would simply realize it has changed and work out the new path with little difficulty. The rat would take far longer to learn the new path due to its already ingrained memory. It's confused because it can't understand how or why it changed.

I love this so much.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0711094623.htm

It couldn't have been more perfect if I had set it up myself.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Excellent post.

Unfortunately, all this proves is that rats remember things that directly affect THEM. This has no bearing on whether a rat would remember or understand what it saw its Master doing in a completely unrelated activity that it had no part in.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

I love this so much.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0711094623.htm

It couldn't have been more perfect if I had set it up myself.

Aaannd you just posted the same article. See above post. This is your argument? It's a straw man, at best.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Unfortunately, all this proves is that rats remember things that directly affect THEM. This has no bearing on whether a rat would remember or understand what it saw its Master doing in a completely unrelated activity that it had no part in.

Getting out of breath chasing all these goal posts.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

You got a better explanation? I'd love to hear it! Because I'm talking about actual animal behavior, not some hypothetical "suppressed memory" that an ordinary rat MIGHT have. At least a rat with awakened intelligence and a humanoid body could read the book to learn. I STILL prefer Splinter as Yoshi (it just makes more sense) but it was what it was, and I can at least believe the movie's version COULD happen, rather than a common pet having ANY means or motivation to study a very difficult, time-consuming set of HUMAN abilities! (Because no one has even addressed the point of his body structure being all wrong in the 90 movie for those moves....)

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

You got a better explanation? I'd love to hear it! Because I'm talking about actual animal behavior, not some hypothetical "suppressed memory" that an ordinary rat MIGHT have. At least a rat with awakened intelligence and a humanoid body could read the book to learn. I STILL prefer Splinter as Yoshi (it just makes more sense) but it was what it was, and I can at least believe the movie's version COULD happen, rather than a common pet having ANY means or motivation to study a very difficult, time-consuming set of HUMAN abilities! (Because no one has even addressed the point of his body structure being all wrong in the 90 movie for those moves....)

"At least a rat with awakened intelligence and a humanoid body could remember the moves it saw its Master make and therefore apply them with its now advanced intelligence and humanoid body."

Well goddamn that was easy.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

You got a better explanation? I'd love to hear it! Because I'm talking about actual animal behavior, not some hypothetical "suppressed memory" that an ordinary rat MIGHT have. At least a rat with awakened intelligence and a humanoid body could read the book to learn. I STILL prefer Splinter as Yoshi (it just makes more sense) but it was what it was, and I can at least believe the movie's version COULD happen, rather than a common pet having ANY means or motivation to study a very difficult, time-consuming set of HUMAN abilities! (Because no one has even addressed the point of his body structure being all wrong in the 90 movie for those moves....)

You prefer a human devolving into a large rat, and all the improbabilityies associated with that, to a rat remembering something it watched hundreds of times?

[LeoRaph]

I think you'd be better of just going to Peter Laird's Blog and ask him point blank why he 'chose' Splinter to be a rat rather than a human because clearly all these responses are just too 'ridiculous' so maybe he can at least get you to see his point of view...you know being one of the 'actual' creators and the main writer behind it all.

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com/

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yeah, we already know from virtually every incarnation (except maybe Mirage) that the mutagen is unpredictable and apparently works both ways. At least Yoshi already KNEW all that stuff, and simply had to adapt it to his new form. A rat remembering something his OWNER did that he literally had no part of (ie, it had no direct impact or interest for him) is far less believable, IMHO. That would be like my cat watching me type while working on my fics every day, and then it mutating to write a novel and become the next Steven King. The rat has no understanding of what it's even seeing (ie what purpose it serves) much less interest in something that doesn't involve food, mating, a threat, or any other basic concern animals have. And most animals have fairly one-track minds.... (Seriously, They are persistent as heck when it comes to getting what they want! But anything else is either a temporary distraction, or they just don't care.)

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by LeoRaph

I think you'd better just go to Peter Laird's Blog and ask him point blank why he 'chose' splinter to be a rat rather than a human because clearly all these responses are just too 'ridiculous' so maybe he can at least get you to see his point of view...you know being one of the 'actual' creators and the main writer behind it all.

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com.au/

Oh, I "get" it- I just don't agree with it. It was basically a joke from the ground up. Had it been a SERIOUS attempt at an origin story rather than a parody, I imagine they might have gone a different route. Probably something closer to the OT- or perhaps IDW's take (which I LOVE, BTW.) That one actually makes the most sense from the rat-end of the spectrum (enter rat butt jokes here) and I can swallow that version of Splinter-as-rat FAR more readily than a simple "pet was watching his master do stuff" origin. At least the past life scenario gives them a prior starting point that makes him knowing things as an animal reasonable. Yet even there, he wasn't "awakened" until the scientists started giving him the injections. (There is at least some basis in myth and theology for this version, which Mirage/ 90 movie don't have.)

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Yeah, we already know from virtually every incarnation (except maybe Mirage) that the mutagen is unpredictable and apparently works both ways. At least Yoshi already KNEW all that stuff, and simply had to adapt it to his new form. A rat remembering something his OWNER did that he literally had no part of (ie, it had no direct impact or interest for him) is far less believable, IMHO. That would be like my cat watching me type while working on my fics every day, and then it mutating to write a novel and become the next Steven King. The rat has no understanding of what it's even seeing (ie what purpose it serves) much less interest in something that doesn't involve food, mating, a threat, or any other basic concern animals have. And most animals have fairly one-track minds.... (Seriously, They are persistent as heck when it comes to getting what they want! But anything else is either a temporary distraction, or they just don't care.)

But again, you allowing mutagene to be a maguffin, and not adhering to your very strict rules of what is and is not possible. You're cherry picking the parts you agree with , and ignoring what you don't, no different than anyone else.

You're writer argument holds no water, as you're suggestion incorporates the ability to read, in English. Absolutely a bridge to far, one that the movie invokes in fact. Splinter spontaneously learns to speak and read English?

Surely both of those abilities are far more complex than mimicking body movements.

Idw's version requires some sort of spirituality, which is, in my opinion the antithesis of what TMNT is about.

All the past life stuff is mumbo jumbo nonsense, and is of severe detriment to the comics.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

"At least a rat with awakened intelligence and a humanoid body could remember the moves it saw its Master make and therefore apply them with its now advanced intelligence and humanoid body."

Well goddamn that was easy.

Again, taking things out of context. That's ASSUMING he paid any attention to those moves ORIGINALLY. No rat I've ever seen (or any other animal of comparable intelligence) would bother. They'd sit and watch for a few minutes, and then do something else. Maybe scratch an itch or scurry over to the food bowl.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Again, taking things out of context. That's ASSUMING he paid any attention to those moves ORIGINALLY. No rat I've ever seen (or any other animal of comparable intelligence) would bother. They'd sit and watch for a few minutes, and then do something else. Maybe scratch an itch or scurry over to the food bowl.

Good thing it's a f*cking movie then.