Why Do People Hate Venus So Much?

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by neatoman

A series of problems really:

1. "The Xth Y" is an inherently lazy idea.
2. Having the main or only difference be the opposite sex is also lazy.
3. Having her share the backstory of the regular turtles is the epitome of laziness.
4. Making her a potential love interest shattered the fundamental family dynamic when combined with the problem above.

These (and maybe her personality) are the fundamental problems with her, most other things are nitpicks really. So in a nutshell the main problem is that she's not a very creative idea at all, plus the fact that her presence interferes with the established relationship between the turtles.

Granted, it's not really that hard to to make a more compelling character representing some ideas she represents. Ninjara, Slash, Mona Lisa, Leatherhead, Alopex, Mondo Gecko, Metalhead, Fugitoid, Renet, Nobody, even Casey and April are all more popular (or at least more compelling) characters than Venus, and not that different in concept.

Thank you! Yes these are the things that are wrong with this character. She is the ultimate example of lazy writing.

The key to make a great character to think outside the box instead of the old fifth turtle concept and make them stand strong on their own in concept. Tokka and Slash are anything but the fifth turtle and that is why they're remember in a more positive light.

The biggest solution to fix Venus to not make her the fifth turtle and their sister. Hell just make her something other then a ninja by god then she will stand out among the masses of OCs who are just females versions of the ninja turtle with ****ing shell boobs and long flowing hair.

[Candy Kappa]

A good "fifth" Turtle, would be Artemisia by Ross Campbell.

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

A good "fifth" Turtle, would be Artemisia by Ross Campbell.

That more of a elseworld story then an ass pull in retcon of establish canon and if there one thing that geeks really hate, it's retconning.

[Candy Kappa]

True, Artemisia was always there in Ross' universe, which works a lot better then "*poff* long lost family suddenly here to stay"

and Arty's design is not tacked on with feminizing stuff like hair, eyelashes and boobs. She looks just like the guys, a mutant bipedal turtle.

[Luckyday]

That said, I do want to see a female mutant turtle some day. Turtles are not just one species. There are clearly mutants from different countries so how hard can it be to create one with a unique concept and with flaws and all?

[Prowler]

Well, first of all, she was created over a decade after the other turtles. There was no need to create another a turtle. And her being female gave the vibe that they did it just for the sake of diversity. And they even had the nerve to go there and make her not blood related to them. And finally, her being a bad character in a bad show that was considered the lowest point ever in the history of the franchise didn't do her any favors either. Michael Bay's film came close but at least that one made quite some decent money, while TNM was cancelled pretty early. That show was the nail on the coffin of the rapid popularity decline of the franchise. So basically, her poor reputation and infamy is attributed to a mix of poor characterization and being part of one of the crappiest, if not the crappiest, TMNT incarnation to date.

[MST3KFan]

Venus is the prime example of a Mary Sue. That pretty much sums her up. The fact that they changed the turtles from brothers no less so they could compete for her love as well...

The way Leonardo says "We're not brothers" in the show, it's like..."What!? Since when?"

[BabyTurtles]

Firstly I'd like to say I don't mind a girl turtle because I like Arty.

but Venus was too much of a Mary Sue.

[Garfield]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'm always of the Grant Morrison mindset that says "There are NO bad characters or ideas, just badly executed ones."

I agree with this. Venus could work. But she didn't she was goofy. Not because of anything on paper about the character but because she was portrayed poorly. But that's really doesn't have anything to do with the concept of the character. TMNT:NM was just a goofy show over all.

[IndigoErth]

She could have been cool. I'll never understand how people can take some initial idea and then...make it stupid. Or is it down to simply nobody in charge knows how to make cool female characters, esp without making them fit some agenda.


At the very least that show could have said she was one lone hatchling simply put with the boys, keeping their agenda intact without having to bring the unnecessary "not brothers" nonsense into it.

Better yet... She's another turtle they cross paths with eventually, but who did not start out with or mutate with them. Maybe she was a lab animal, or maybe enemies experimented with trying to mutate their own turtle to try to combat the boys and she was either lost, or better yet, purposely escaped, defecting from their ranks as she knew they were evil. Maybe she does not live locally, but becomes an ally and contact who occasionally aids them. Has a real signature weapon, not mystical powers; gear is noticeably different in style (cool style please, not a style that shouts "girl"), perhaps no mask at all. Maybe she'd even tease the guys about wearing them.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

^ This.... could be very cool.

[pennydreadful]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

She could have been cool. I'll never understand how people can take some initial idea and then...make it stupid. Or is it down to simply nobody in charge knows how to make cool female characters, esp without making them fit some agenda.


At the very least that show could have said she was one lone hatchling simply put with the boys, keeping their agenda intact without having to bring the unnecessary "not brothers" nonsense into it.

Better yet... She's another turtle they cross paths with eventually, but who did not start out with or mutate with them. Maybe she was a lab animal, or maybe enemies experimented with trying to mutate their own turtle to try to combat the boys and she was either lost, or better yet, purposely escaped, defecting from their ranks as she knew they were evil. Maybe she does not live locally, but becomes an ally and contact who occasionally aids them. Has a real signature weapon, not mystical powers; gear is noticeably different in style (cool style please, not a style that shouts "girl"), perhaps no mask at all. Maybe she'd even tease the guys about wearing them.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Personally, I always had an idea that Venus could have been brought temporarily to the 4Kids cartoon as a mutant created in a lab by Agent Bishop with the express purpose of infiltrating the Turtles. Have her start off as a villain, turn sympathetic, and THEN LEAVE THE TEAM.

There ain't no room for a permanent fifth Turtle.

Oh, and change the name to Artemisia. Naming the girl after a piece of art but the guys after artists (people with rights)... read into that what you will.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

She could have been cool. I'll never understand how people can take some initial idea and then...make it stupid. Or is it down to simply nobody in charge knows how to make cool female characters, esp without making them fit some agenda.


At the very least that show could have said she was one lone hatchling simply put with the boys, keeping their agenda intact without having to bring the unnecessary "not brothers" nonsense into it.

Better yet... She's another turtle they cross paths with eventually, but who did not start out with or mutate with them. Maybe she was a lab animal, or maybe enemies experimented with trying to mutate their own turtle to try to combat the boys and she was either lost, or better yet, purposely escaped, defecting from their ranks as she knew they were evil. Maybe she does not live locally, but becomes an ally and contact who occasionally aids them. Has a real signature weapon, not mystical powers; gear is noticeably different in style (cool style please, not a style that shouts "girl"), perhaps no mask at all. Maybe she'd even tease the guys about wearing them.

You win the Internet today.
Nice well told pitch. I can picture it in my head easily. 5 Stars.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

She could have been cool. I'll never understand how people can take some initial idea and then...make it stupid. Or is it down to simply nobody in charge knows how to make cool female characters, esp without making them fit some agenda.


At the very least that show could have said she was one lone hatchling simply put with the boys, keeping their agenda intact without having to bring the unnecessary "not brothers" nonsense into it.

Better yet... She's another turtle they cross paths with eventually, but who did not start out with or mutate with them. Maybe she was a lab animal, or maybe enemies experimented with trying to mutate their own turtle to try to combat the boys and she was either lost, or better yet, purposely escaped, defecting from their ranks as she knew they were evil. Maybe she does not live locally, but becomes an ally and contact who occasionally aids them. Has a real signature weapon, not mystical powers; gear is noticeably different in style (cool style please, not a style that shouts "girl"), perhaps no mask at all. Maybe she'd even tease the guys about wearing them.

all this, i have always said venus didnt need to be in the bowl with them...but yes to this i second..or third it..this is my new Venus origin

[Cipher]

If I had to hazard a guess: Probably because she's solely connected to the absolute worst iteration of the franchise and her execution was gobsmackingly horrible.

That said, I'd be up for seeing a smart version of Venus. The presence of a female Turtle would be a serious blow to the Turtles' universe in an anti-"Sons of the Silent Age" kind of way, and I'd be up for seeing a better developed version of her character as well. There are smart stories to be told with some version of her.

You could argue whether or not it'd even be the same character if the only traits carried over are "there's a fifth Turtle, and it's a girl," but ... whatever. Characters have seen more variation than that throughout different versions of TMNT already.

[Donnieangelo]

Good thing I was born a few months after the show ended.