10 Ways To Make Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2 Not Suck

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

If you can sympathize with my frustration, why not just say so right away!
You just said you want the same thing most of us do, BUT we'll never get it, so to hell with it.

If fans had thought that, we would have had aliens, and blue door.

I think I've said this 100 times by now. You've had crazy long winded arguments with people you agree with. That's crazy!

And lastly, I'll tell you why they made the changes they made. It's all about intellectual property laws, simple as that. They changed it for the same reason playmates made hundreds of different characters with variations and themes etc.
they're securing and locking down IP so that no one can make a bootleg anything without getting sued. It's that simple.

By redesigning x, they now own exclusive rights to that x. They had rights to the turtles, but again, if their turtles look just like the old turtles, they can't truly claim ownership in the same way.

It's a little more detailed than that, but that's the jist of it.

And no, lots of people wanted to work on the film, but the ones who bought the rights did so, by their own admission, to make piles of money, on name brand recognition. There's a video I've posted twice, where you can hear it from the horses mouth.

They also, by their own admission begged Liebesman to do it. BEGGED!
Fox was the only one who begged onto the project. No one else.

All this to say, why argue with us, the supposed haters, if you're secretly agreeing with us?

Because he's a troll. He's already admitted it previously.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

Because he's a troll. He's already admitted it previously.

I must have missed that. Thanks for the heads up. Yay for exercises in futility!

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

I must have missed that. Thanks for the heads up. Yay for exercises in futility!

Said he specifically joined the board to counteract all the negative posts on the movie, or some such nonsense.

[Venom]

Hey, if you guys wanna debate origins and stuff, cool, but don't bring insults and crap into the mix.

Puke: Learn to debate better. I can see your pov in there, but you don't really elaborate on it well and end up reiterating the same thing, which becomes aggravating and lends credence to what Penny stated - arguing for the sake of it. Stop, comes across as pedantic.

C42: Cure wasn't being sarcastic. Puke has admitting to enjoying a troll now and again. You've been around here long enough to know our personalities. If you have a beef, there's an ignore button for a reason. If you choose not to ignore someone you feel is snarking on ya, or don't ask in a collected manner thru PM whether or not they were, then grow a thicker skin, ignore the post and move on.

You have a choice to move right past a post as much as you have one to click "quote" and type a response. Don't take the bait, in other words.

Now, I'm leaving this on here and going back to bed, so knock of the personal crap and talk like civil folks. We made this subsection for a reason, don't muck it up.

If you have beef with something I said, PM me, if not, goodnight.

I'm out.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Venom FTW.

[Purse Grabbin Puke]

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

Because he's a troll. He's already admitted it previously.

This is a flat out lie.

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

Said he specifically joined the board to counteract all the negative posts on the movie, or some such nonsense.

Another lie.

I'm only responding to your lies, however, your poor attempts at insults will be ignored, until you offer a comment of value.

I have never even THOUGHT about trolling anyone, let alone claimed to troll. I said in a thread that had many posts deleted, the only reason I started posting here was because of the insane hypocrisy that was happening regarding the sexual nature of the movie. Seeing someone post how degrading to women the trailers were, and they're sexualizing April (who is completely clothed, and wearing a jacket most of the movie) And Mikey is molesting April, then turn around and slut shame Megan Fox, and the same person then posted about how hot she thought the Turtles were in some concept art thread.

That was not trolling negative comments about the movie. I hadn't seen the movie, and I honestly didn't think it was going to be good at that point.

Bry - PM me if you want to debate Batman, I'll gladly do that away from the TMNT discussion.

Regarding the comment about Laird and the starving artists. They could have made money off TMNT without allowing it to be raped by a toy company for profit. The holier than thou attitude some have about this franchise (WHICH I LOVE BTW) is astonishing. The actual creators don't even hold it in such high regard.

Commenter 42 - I sympathize with wanting an adult, and serious take on the Turtles, yes, but I disagree with the constant whining and complaining about what we got. The constant bullying of anyone who says they like it. It's really just lame.

You said I had long winded arguments with people I agree with, and that's not true. Let me state this now. My argument is not the Mirage or '90s origin is any better or than the origin we were given in the '14 movie. I also don't think it's impossible to tell a TMNT story without the Yoshi/Saki past. My feeling is as long as their is conflict between Splinter and Shredder, the origin doesn't really matter unless it's really stupid, and far fetched, and I don't think '14's origin is stupid or far fetched. I think it's quick and simple. I also don't think the movies should be mostly about Splinter and his past, I think it should be all about the Turtles. If I had my dream movie I would kill Splinter, and have the revenge come from that.

I shouldn't have said "who cares" obviously we all do or we wouldn't waste so much time on the subject.

I think you're the one who likes Next Mutation, and that's fine, I think it's abysmal, and far worse than the '14 turtles. Here is why I end up responding to people here, it's because it's fascinating to me, that you would rather keep telling the same group of people how much you hate the movie than go to the sections on the board where you can talk about the things you like.

Galactus - They ARE crime fighters, because they fight the Foot...who are committing crimes...they fight the Purple Dragons who are also committing crimes. Please anyone show me where the Turtles are like "We're gonna kick these guys asses for the hell of it, screw the citizens of NYC". They may not preach that they are fighting for the people of NYC, but they are. After the whole Splinter/Shredder thing, they are for sure fighting crime, and also saving the world from Aliens. (this makes them SUPERHEROES)

Galactus if you want to discuss Batman please PM me, would love to talk to you about it.

Galactus, regarding my "8 people on the message board" comment, I mean, yes there are a lot of people who saw it and thought, eh that was dumb, but there are not a lot of people willing to dedicate time to fight with other people who like it. I see the same small group of people making the same degrading comments about the movie over and over, there is not a major campaign to condemn the movie, it did great dvd and digital sales which means people want to rewatch it, and own it.

The Razzies by the way, most of the time attack successful and popular movies.

Shredder IS murderous, if you're willing to kill literally MILLIONS of people to gain power over a city, you.are.murderous.

Nobody will convince me that a major movie studio purposefully makes things bad just for the hell of it. Making things for money is what everyone in Hollywood is doing it's weird that Bay and Co get's bulldozed for being that way. I don't like it, but at some point you just have to accept it's never going to change.

pennydreadful - I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm not beating down any dissenting opinions with the use of caps, it's for emphasis, and to show my opinion of some of the "arguments" on this board about the '14 movie. Some of the complaints are really so nit picky and some people claim little things they didn't like were SO bad that it knocked them out of their seats rendering them unconscious and unable to follow the plot.

Venom - I end up repeating because I am asked the same questions, or asked to elaborate on answers I've given. I hate being repetitive but I mean it's all here in text, and somehow I'm still put into the category of defending the movie, when all I'm really doing is defending the topic of the thread in most cases. For this thread however, I think we're certainly on topic since we're debating what needs to happen to improve the sequel.

Also, one last time for everyone I am not trolling, and have never said I like to troll, and I don't plan on ever trolling.

[Purse Grabbin Puke]

Here is something for anyone who thinks I can't look at both sides of this debate.

Originally Posted by Purse Grabbin Puke

I've seen the movie a bunch of times now, I'd have to say, at first I thought Megan Fox did a serviceable job, but my goodness she is horrifyingly bad at acting. The constantly out of breath when she talks...the looks she gives when someone is talking, it looks like absolutely NOTHING is going on in her brain.

The movie is too short, and on top of being too short, it moves WAY too fast.

Not long enough, means not enough Turtles.

More fighting against the foot would have been nice.

I hated Shredder's armour.

I do not like when Shredder starts throwing the knives at the tower, and we get what seems like a 5 minute far off view of the same animation of him throwing the knives over and over and over.

Leo looks very odd when they are running to the elevator and they turn the corner and are confronted by hundreds of foot soldiers, the animation just seems weird, he's like hunched over or something. Then he's like 2 ft shorter than Donnie in the elevator for some reason.

Sacks literally tells his plan about 4 times in 10 minutes. I love when Leo says to him "for what" and he says "My god...say that again I want to hear your voice" but then he just willy nilly gives them his plan step by step. It would have made more sense for maybe Karai or even use Stockman in that instance to not know the overall plan, and have them ask, and have him explain it to them in front of the Turtles.

They are too big. There is something nice about the turtles from the 90 movie being so small. It makes it ok to have them sit around and talk a bit. These Turtles are just SO huge it's like when the Incredible Hulk is on screen in the Avengers, just so out of place.

One last nit picky thing I guess it's either bat editing or bad writing or both, April asks about project Renaissance, shows Sacks the picture of the Turtles, and then he says "......do you REALLY want to know about project Renaissance?" it just seemed so weird for him to ask that when she's practically begging him for answers.

Overall I enjoy the movie, I love the TMNT, so it is definitely easier to like it because of that reason alone. Pretty much anytime the Turtles are on the screen it's gold. I really think if they would have kept more things in the movie and drug it out a little more it would have made for a much better movie. IMO it's the 3rd best TMNT movie behind 1990 TMNT first then 2007's TMNT.

[TrickOrTreater]

the only reason I started posting here was because of the insane hypocrisy that was happening regarding the sexual nature of the movie.

You brave, brave soul. Surely you will deliver us all from our sins.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Purse Grabbin Puke

.
"I think you're the one who likes Next Mutation, and that's fine, I think it's abysmal, and far worse than the '14 turtles. Here is why I end up responding to people here, it's because it's fascinating to me, that you would rather keep telling the same group of people how much you hate the movie than go to the sections on the board where you can talk about the things you like."

Nope, wrong guy dude. I can't get through 2 minutes of next mutation. Can't stand it, but I get you're responding to lots of people, all good.

I honestly feel that we still haven't gotten a proper TMNT film. That's my beef in general. I'm not the only one on repeat either.

I'm fascinated by the people that enjoyed it actually. I'd like to know what makes them tick.

[Commenter 42]

The only reason TMNT 2 might not suck, would be a change in directors, and hopefully a fresh start. Maybe Green will bring a change for the better. Hard to say.

[Leo656]

Wow, that was an ordeal.

Anyways. I think the people who made the movie really set themselves up for a fall by insisting they were making something "for the fans" and promising "everyone will love it." I mean, yes, you have to get people excited, but they'd have to have been completely out-of-touch to think that. Especially when they were saying that alllll the way back when they had every intention of Alien Turtles From Dimension X being the movie they were gonna make. Even THEN, they were insisting they were "keeping it real". Just like when guys at WB back in the 90s were insisting they were totally gonna make non-flying, black-rubber costume, no-cape "Superman" work as a movie, I knew for a fact these clowns had no clue. You only get to be THAT far out of touch by being willfully ignorant of the source material AND its fans.

If they had just said flat-out, "Look, this is a lark, like 'Smurfs' or 'Alvin & the Chipmunks', nobody really cares about this stuff, they just remember it from being kids, and that's the audience we want," people might have eased up on them. I mean, fans would have still been pissed, but people who actually cared about those other properties hated those movies, too, yet they still made money and have their fans, enough to get sequels, anyway. They're still bad movies, all, BUT, at least they were open from the get-go about the movies only existing as fluff.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by Purse Grabbin Puke

PM me if you want to debate Batman, I'll gladly do that away from the TMNT discussion.

Nah. I think I made my point.

Originally Posted by Purse Grabbin Puke

Regarding the comment about Laird and the starving artists. They could have made money off TMNT without allowing it to be raped by a toy company for profit. The holier than thou attitude some have about this franchise (WHICH I LOVE BTW) is astonishing. The actual creators don't even hold it in such high regard.

"Raped"? Come on, that is a really dumb thing to say.

Listen - the odds of any comic artist making decent money, especially on their own self-published property, are practically a million to one. I'm not gonna hold it against any comic artist who chooses to "sell out" if it means they get to be financially stable - especially if they personally stick to their original vision and keep working at it, which Eastman and Laird did for years (and ARE STILL DOING even though they sold the property). If someone in a profession that typically doesn't pay well at all gets the chance to become financially independent and stable, they deserve to take it without judgment as far as I'm concerned. And trying to morally equate that to an already-mega-rich Hollywood producer cashing in on one more brand name is bananas.

Eastman and Laird both have enough money that they could walk away from the property outright and live comfortably for the rest of their lives. If they're still involved to some capacity, it's because they want to be. These are two guys who still have strong opinions about the style of Michelangelo's nunchucks, for chrissakes. You can't claim they don't care.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Anyways. I think the people who made the movie really set themselves up for a fall by insisting they were making something "for the fans" and promising "everyone will love it." I mean, yes, you have to get people excited, but they'd have to have been completely out-of-touch to think that. Especially when they were saying that alllll the way back when they had every intention of Alien Turtles From Dimension X being the movie they were gonna make. Even THEN, they were insisting they were "keeping it real".

Bingo.

If they had just come out and said "we're doing a whole new take on the Ninja Turtles and are largely ignoring the source material", the fans would have known full well to just tune out and forget about it. But they wanted those dollars, they lied through their teeth to get them, and then had the damn gall to act surprised and even insult the fans when they inevitably weren't happy about it. Sorry - they don't get to do that and then be exempt from criticism. They earned every bit of it.

[Purse Grabbin Puke]

Originally Posted by Bry

Nah. I think I made my point.

Ehh no you didn't, but I feel hypocritical if I continue to talk about Batman in thread about the TMNT sequel.

"Raped"? Come on, that is a really dumb thing to say.

It's not. Unless you think I meant they had sex with the toys.

Listen - the odds of any comic artist making decent money, especially on their own self-published property, are practically a million to one. I'm not gonna hold it against any comic artist who chooses to "sell out" if it means they get to be financially stable - especially if they personally stick to their original vision and keep working at it, which Eastman and Laird did for years (and ARE STILL DOING even though they sold the property). If someone in a profession that typically doesn't pay well at all gets the chance to become financially independent and stable, they deserve to take it without judgment as far as I'm concerned. And trying to morally equate that to an already-mega-rich Hollywood producer cashing in on one more brand name is bananas.

Eastman and Laird both have enough money that they could walk away from the property outright and live comfortably for the rest of their lives. If they're still involved to some capacity, it's because they want to be. These are two guys who still have strong opinions about the style of Michelangelo's nunchucks, for chrissakes. You can't claim they don't care.

I'm not disparaging them for "selling out" as you put it, what I'm saying is there seem to be people here who hold TMNT to a higher standard than the creators do. I think the writers over at Nick hold the series to a higher standard than Laird and Eastman do. Eastman sold his rights a very long time ago, but he still does things for TMNT and I'm not saying he doesn't like TMNT, but it helps him promote his own projects outside of TMNT. He would be dumb to ignore it all especially when it's going through a resurgence. Creatively you have to understand they both probably got sick of TMNT and wanted to move on. Unfortunately for them, they've never been able to match what they created in TMNT.

It's a business either way and I don't understand why Bay is vilified for wanting to make money, but E&L or anyone else for that matter aren't.

If they had just come out and said "we're doing a whole new take on the Ninja Turtles and are largely ignoring the source material", the fans would have known full well to just tune out and forget about it. But they wanted those dollars, they lied through their teeth to get them, and then had the damn gall to act surprised and even insult the fans when they inevitably weren't happy about it. Sorry - they don't get to do that and then be exempt from criticism. They earned every bit of it.

It’s probably amusing to a lot of people what the press puts out there and what they say people behind the scenes really want to do with the movie, but [Platinum Dunes'] main goal is actually to make the best possible ‘Turtles’ movie with respect to the fans and the core audience as possible. We’ve learned from movies like ‘The Avengers,’ which to me was a superhero movie so good to me personally that I practically wept [...] From everything that I’ve seen in the ['TMNT'] script and the development and everything they’ve asked my input on specifically, it’s gonna be an awesome, familiar, solid ‘Turtles’ movie. It’ll have everything that fans are gonna want and then some. - Kevin Eastman

What was so great for the intent for the movie that came out this year was that we wanted to strip it down to the very basics: the Turtles, Splinter, their origin story, the Shredder introduction of course, which was from the first Turtles comic book, and April, which was [originally] in Turtles too. So we wanted to make that the foundation on which we could build everything off from and keep the story simple enough and have fun with it and tell a good story. - Kevin Eastman

Yeah yeah, Bay is the devil, Bay and Co lied...Eastman is a Eagle Scout...ooooook.

[Leo656]

I'm pretty sure nobody thinks Kevin Eastman is an "Eagle Scout". His track record as both a liar and a hypocrite is well-established and well-documented, and goes well beyond just TMNT into his other business ventures.

I'm also pretty sure most people are well aware just how complicit he is in the Platinum Dunes Cash Grab fiasco. It was His Name and His Word that made many people want to give this movie the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully those people learned a lesson, a lesson *I* was trying to teach for the longest time about how the guy generally doesn't care and isn't to be trusted, but hey, what do I know? I only cite precedent.

How bizarre it is to think that The Way Someone Has Always Behaved is also The Way They Will Behave Next Time, And The Time After That. Clearly that approach is full of holes. Uh huh.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by Purse Grabbin Puke

It's not. Unless you think I meant they had sex with the toys.

Equating/comparing making silly toys based on a comic book with rape, even jokingly, is a pretty stupid thing to do.

Originally Posted by Purse Grabbin Puke

I'm not disparaging them for "selling out" as you put it, what I'm saying is there seem to be people here who hold TMNT to a higher standard than the creators do.

Sure, that's probably true. We're fans. It comes with the territory.

I don't necessarily think Eastman and Laird both hold it to an equally high standard, mind you. I respect them both as creators and for what they managed to do, and I did talk about them "together," but I think history has proven one has stricter ideas about what works than the other.

Laird's the guy who re-drew Michelangelo's nunchucks in those Eastman collaborations recently because they didn't look "right". That's megafan-level obsessive attention to detail.

Originally Posted by Purse Grabbin Puke

It's a business either way and I don't understand why Bay is vilified for wanting to make money, but E&L or anyone else for that matter aren't.

I'm not vilifying Bay for wanting to make money; I'm vilifying him for doing it in the laziest, most cynical way possible. Hell, if he put in the kind of effort that Marvel Studios and their producers/creators put into Captain America: The Winter Soldier or Guardians of the Galaxy this year, I'd be singing his praises.

Originally Posted by Purse Grabbin Puke

Yeah yeah, Bay is the devil, Bay and Co lied...Eastman is a Eagle Scout...ooooook.

Never claimed Eastman was an eagle scout either. I've said many times in the past that you can't take his statements at face value - he's on record as being very okay with damn near any variation of the property, especially if he's getting some money from it. And in this case, yeah, he was completely on board with Platinum Dunes, and it's totally fair to criticize him for what he said there. Laird was always the more "principled" of the two, if you want to call it that, and the one who's been more than happy to criticize the versions or ideas he doesn't like or approve of.

But no, I'm not saying either is beyond reproach - just that they were poor comic artists who I feel were perfectly entitled to cash in when they had the chance (which is incredibly rare in indie comics), and I will never hold that against them the way I'll hold this kind of shameless, insultingly-bad cash grab against a mega-rich producer who could easily do better if he bothered to care even one iota.

[Leo656]

Yeah man. Contrary to popular belief you can totally "Sell Out' while still retaining some integrity and/or principles. Although, I'd argue that Eastman, by evidence, NEVER really gave a sh*t beyond a check, even in the beginning. I could be wrong but that's how it comes off.

I'm grateful to both Kevin and Peter for creating something I enjoy but I don't in turn deify them as some do. I have a strong feeling that I'd have little to talk about with either of them, were we acquainted. I'd probably enjoy Kevin as a "bar buddy" but that's as far as it goes for either of them. They really don't seem like "my kind of people."

[pennydreadful]

Once more unto the breach, dear friends...

Puke, I appreciate that you like the movie. That's fine. I'm not faulting anyone who likes it. But it's unfair to suggest that because you liked the movie, nobody else should have a problem with it.

Now, keeping in mind that this is just a movie - let's see if we can have a calm discussion regarding a point you raised yesterday.

Originally Posted by Purse Grabbin Puke

I'm sorry but this is just a ridiculous statement. The movie is so basic there isn't even enough time to jar you out of the narrative. If you want to say the story was too basic, that's one thing, but gaping plot holes, and inconsistencies? Inconsistencies to what? Other TMNT stories? I would love to know what you think is a plot hole. If you say Splinter learning martial arts from a book is a plot hole, don't even bother replying, that's not a plot hole.

Now, according to Macmillan Dictionary, "A plot hole, or plothole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that creates a paradox in the story that cannot be reconciled with any explanation. These include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline."
Citation: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/b.../plothole.html

Yourdictionary.com defines a plothole as "A gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot."

I mention this only to avoid an argument about what errors in the movie constitute a plothole or inconsistency.

So - onto a few plotholes/inconsistencies in the movie, just off the top of my head:

- Shredder is The Bad Guy but doesn't kill Splinter or Raph.

- Shredder and Sachs are after the mutagen that's in Splinter and the Turtles, but they don't capture Splinter or Raph, despite the fact that Splinter and Raph are both full of valuable mutagen-blood.

- Raph's shell is cracked, preventing him from going to help Leo during the truck/snow scene. Then five seconds later he's slamming into a humvee with his shell, thanks to the miracle of duct tape.

- The Turtles are bulletproof but are vulnerable to tranquilizer darts when the plot demands. While one could argue that the bullets were hitting them in the shell/plastron and the tranq darts were hitting them in arms/legs, the argument then becomes: if the Foot are able to hit them in the arm/leg with a tranq gun, why not with an assault rifle?

- April gets fired from her job as a reporter because nobody believes her story about the Turtles... yet the whole time she has photos of them on her phone. And as this took place at a time in the story when she had not befriended the Turtles yet, it made no sense for her to not show her boss the proof that the Turtles existed.

- Inconsistencies with the Turtles' strength. One minute they're superhumanly strong enough to send a metal shipping crates flying. The next they have trouble lifting a gate. Another minute one can jump literally jump through the metal roof of a van, but 30 seconds later he can't punch through a slab of glass. Another minute they can obliterate a Humvee by jumping at it, but can't even budge a guy in a metal suit of armor... because reasons.

If you really want to go more in-depth, there are a few sites that discuss other errors in the film in more detail:
http://movieplotholes.com/teenage-mu...a-turtles.html
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1291150/goofs
http://100thingsilearned.com/view/1749/

Now again - if those things don't bother you, that's fine. But saying that there were no plot holes or inconsistencies simply isn't true.

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Nope, wrong guy dude. I can't get through 2 minutes of next mutation. Can't stand it, but I get you're responding to lots of people, all good.

I think he's confusing you with me - I'm the Next Mutation fan, dude.

[IndigoErth]

EDITORIAL: A Commentary on Criticism
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=113356

[Commenter 42]

Excellent article. Should be a sticky here.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

EDITORIAL: A Commentary on Criticism
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=113356

Great article.