DC Comics' Vixen: The Animated Series - Page 2

~~Leo656~~ · 01-17-2015, 06:35 PM

Can't speak to what I haven't seen yet, I didn't have cable when that show was on. I only really found out about it fairly recently. Seems to have lasted a while so that's good for them. I honestly never followed the character much, I really like Black Lightning and Static seemed kind of too similar.

One thing Vixen and Static both have in common, though, is that until their shows were announced, literally nobody ever said, "I really hope someone does (X) as a cartoon." There's still a dozen fairly obscure characters that are nonetheless more well-known than they are, who would get a much better response if someone announced they were doing a cartoon. Power Girl. Zatanna. Lobo. Just spitballing, but I mentioned a bunch of others, earlier. It's not a small list. They're not just going "obscure", with Vixen, they're going waaaaay obscure. And it seems to be for less-than-pure intentions.

I mean, heck, even Black Lightning. That guy's been really popular off and on, and they've always portrayed him as a big deal. Thing is, giving him a solo show wouldn't make a ton of sense, because he's always been part of a group, almost never a solo act. And that's the same thing with Vixen. Some characters weren't created to be Stars. But at least a ton more people actually know who Black Lightning is.

I mean, it'll probably be just fine, she has a rather unique power set and almost all of DCs cartoons are pretty good, but there's a lot of "iffy" decisions going on behind-the-scenes, is all I'm saying. No WAY was she the first choice they came up with. I'd like to know which ideas they passed on before approving this one. I'm curious.

*BabyTurtles* · 01-17-2015, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Can't speak to what I haven't seen yet, I didn't have cable when that show was on. I only really found out about it fairly recently. Seems to have lasted a while so that's good for them. I honestly never followed the character much, I really like Black Lightning and Static seemed kind of too similar.

One thing Vixen and Static both have in common, though, is that until their shows were announced, literally nobody ever said, "I really hope someone does (X) as a cartoon." There's still a dozen fairly obscure characters that are nonetheless more well-known than they are, who would get a much better response if someone announced they were doing a cartoon. Power Girl. Zatanna. Lobo. Just spitballing, but I mentioned a bunch of others, earlier. It's not a small list. They're not just going "obscure", with Vixen, they're going waaaaay obscure. And it seems to be for less-than-pure intentions.

I mean, heck, even Black Lightning. That guy's been really popular off and on, and they've always portrayed him as a big deal. Thing is, giving him a solo show wouldn't make a ton of sense, because he's always been part of a group, almost never a solo act. And that's the same thing with Vixen. Some characters weren't created to be Stars. But at least a ton more people actually know who Black Lightning is.

I mean, it'll probably be just fine, she has a rather unique power set and almost all of DCs cartoons are pretty good, but there's a lot of "iffy" decisions going on behind-the-scenes, is all I'm saying. No WAY was she the first choice they came up with. I'd like to know which ideas they passed on before approving this one. I'm curious.

if Vixen (one of the most well-known black female DC characters) is not "star" material something is wrong.

do you understand what that means? do you get how sad that is?

~~Leo656~~ · 01-17-2015, 08:19 PM

It means simply that she wasn't "built" for that? Her entire roster of the JLA from her to Vibe to Gypsy were "scabs". C-Listers. That was the entire point of their creation. Further, they were created JUST to be half-assed "ethnic" characters. Of that group, only Vixen was able to hang and evolve into something of a "real" character. That's already a huge victory. Just ask Vibe. "Chica."

Leave race out of it entirely. If she was created to be a "back-up player", and has only ever been played that way, and doesn't even really HAVE a character of her own outside of her race (she's basically DC's female version of Black Panther), then WHERE is the sudden logic in making her a Main Solo Character? Aside from pandering, there isn't one. It's literally, "Well, we need a 'Type', or we're gonna get letters, and she's the only one who fits." THAT is wrong. That's an entirely backwards way of telling stories and developing characters. In fact, it's exactly the problem with her creation in the first place - She was literally only created to be "Female And Black", and it took 30 years for her to become "just" a character, and now she's a "Type" again.

That's not progress, it's the opposite! I'm sorry you think it is progress, but it's not. If race really doesn't matter, then they would have picked anyone else to be in the show just for the sake of someone other than hardcore comics fans actually knowing who she is, and in turn actually watching the show. It was not, from purely a common sense/"We want good ratings" perspective, a wise decision. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that Young Justice got canned, and that show was full of recognizable characters. So, after that gets canned, their next attempt is a Vixen solo series? To which most of the potential audience replies, "Who?" That's just... that's so illogical on so many levels.

I've noticed that you do sometimes have a way of bringing race/gender into things despite that not always being the issue. I get that you want things to be "progressive", and that's good. But when things are done and decisions are made for questionable reasons, that's NOT progressive, it's actually kind of ham-fisted and offensive. Like Vibe. Vibe's creation was kind of sincere - more Latino super-heroes, fair enough - but his portrayal was SO goddamn racist they'd have been better off never bothering at all. Nobody was ASKING for that character, DC just *thought* they were doing a good thing and instead they made a big mistake that even their own staff were pissed over. The guy drawing the book, who was Latino, asked to be taken off the book because the Vibe character was so blatantly, stereotypically, cartoonishly portrayed. "But it came from a good place! People wanted more minority characters! We were just trying to help!" One step forward, two giant steps backwards.

Vixen, if you didn't know, came out of the exact same pitch meeting. A pitch meeting that more or less began with, "So, we need to sell more comics to non-whites. How can we do that in the absolute broadest way possible with the least amount of actual effort?" So let's not give them credit they don't deserve for their clumsy, awkward, bumbling attempts to expand the diversity of their super-hero cast. They've done okay at times and failed miserably at others. But they fail the most spectacularly when they go to great lengths to point out how "Important" it is that the character in question isn't white.

So, AGAIN, if we leave race out of it, Vixen still doesn't warrant her own show simply Because She Exists. Neither does Hawkgirl, Aqualad, Elongated Man, Starfire, Cyborg, Steel, The Eradicator, The Ray, Damage, Black Condor, Maxima, Ms. Martian, Max Mercury, Mr. Terrific, Dr. Mid-Nite, or Wildcat. Those are some of my favorite DC characters (and a few I just kind of like). Some are black, some are white, some are girls, and I'm pretty sure Black Condor was most recently a Native American. They're all awesome, and a few of them even had their own books off and on. You know what they're NOT, though? SOLO STARS. They weren't created to be anything but Team Players, and none of them are going to get their own cartoon show anytime soon, even though some of those would be amaaazing. Now, I'd love to see any of them in a show as part of their respective teams, like the Titans, the JSA, The Outsiders, etc. None of them make ANY sense as the star of their own series. At all. And neither does Vixen, IF we're being totally objective about it.

It's not about the race. It's that she's a C-List Back-Up Player by her very design. Her character is very thin, don't do a show JUST about her, simple. Like I said before, do "Justice League Detroit" and make her the team leader? I'm down, I'd LOVE to see that show, just because they're never going to do that show. Heck, if they're going to play the race card, as I mentioned earlier, that book was mostly "ethnic" heroes, and a cartoon version could actually be a lot *better* because those characters would surely be written much better now than they were 30 years ago. They could "fix" the mistakes they made years ago and actually maybe redeem some of that material (which was actually pretty good when it wasn't being Accidentally Racist). There are Good Reasons to do that show.

A show *just* about Vixen, though? She's one of many characters that just doesn't have that kind of clout. It's nothing personal and it's not about race. It's that her being a "Type" is very likely the only reason they're doing the show. And THAT is "sad". We're supposed to be past that kind of thinking.

Nobody is ever going to convince me one character is "better" or "more deserving" than another JUST because of race or gender. If all things are truly "Equal" and "those things don't matter", then they completely don't and shouldn't matter.

Keep in mind, in all likelihood I'm going to see the show even if it's not religiously. And I've spoken in favor of More Vixen many, many times, mostly in the JLU cartoons. I'm curious about it. I'll most likely buy the DVD, and I haven't even seen it yet. But I don't like their apparent reasons for choosing this particular character over so many potential others.

*BabyTurtles* · 01-17-2015, 09:40 PM

Quote:

It means simply that she wasn't "built" for that? Her entire roster of the JLA from her to Vibe to Gypsy were "scabs". C-Listers. That was the entire point of their creation. Further, they were created JUST to be half-assed "ethnic" characters. Of that group, only Vixen was able to hang and evolve into something of a "real" character. That's already a huge victory. Just ask Vibe. "Chica."

looks like DC needs to try harder to write better minority characters.
Just because they were made wrong doesn't mean they should be shafted...it means they need to be changed and written better. We can't simply discard characters like Vibe because that would mean less representation....just try again.

Quote:

Leave race out of it entirely. If she was created to be a "back-up player", and has only ever been played that way, and doesn't even really HAVE a character of her own outside of her race (she's basically DC's female version of Black Panther), then WHERE is the sudden logic in making her a Main Solo Character? Aside from pandering, there isn't one. It's literally, "Well, we need a 'Type', or we're gonna get letters, and she's the only one who fits." THAT is wrong. That's an entirely backwards way of telling stories and developing characters. In fact, it's exactly the problem with her creation in the first place - She was literally only created to be "Female And Black", and it took 30 years for her to become "just" a character, and now she's a "Type" again

wait....Vixen has no personality or background? Why is she labeled "the female black girl?" Is it because they aren't many or something?
just because I feel her race is important, I don't want that to be all she's about.

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That's not progress, it's the opposite! I'm sorry you think it is progress, but it's not. If race really doesn't matter, then they would have picked anyone else to be in the show just for the sake of someone other than hardcore comics fans actually knowing who she is.

Race is important. I've been saying it all day.
I'm sure they picked her because she's a black female and I'm glad they did. It's called representation and that's always and will forever be important.

of course she's also a cool character~ so BONUS!

Quote:

I've noticed that you do sometimes have a way of bringing race/gender into things despite that not always being the issue. I get that you want things to be "progressive", and that's good. But when things are done and decisions are made for questionable reasons, that's NOT progressive, it's actually kind of ham-fisted and offensive. Like Vibe. Vibe's creation was kind of sincere - more Latino super-heroes, fair enough - but his portrayal was SO goddamn racist they'd have been better off never bothering at all. Nobody was ASKING for that character, DC just *thought* they were doing a good thing and instead they made a big mistake that even their own staff were pissed over. The guy drawing the book, who was Latino, asked to be taken off the book because the Vibe character was so blatantly, stereotypically, cartoonishly portrayed. "But it came from a good place! People wanted more minority characters! We were just trying to help!" One step forward, two giant steps backwards.

yup, people are bound to mess up, but that doesn't mean you stop making diverse characters that just means you learn from your mistake and try again.

It also means you re-write the characters for the better. (re-boot them!)

but if you stop trying....that's when we should worry.

Quote:

Vixen, if you didn't know, came out of the exact same pitch meeting. A pitch meeting that more or less began with, "So, we need to sell more comics to non-whites. How can we do that in the absolute broadest way possible with the least amount of actual effort?" So let's not give them credit they don't deserve for their clumsy, awkward, bumbling attempts to expand the diversity of their super-hero cast. They've done okay at times and failed miserably at others. But they fail the most spectacularly when they go to great lengths to point out how "Important" it is that the character in question isn't white.

uh huh that's probably how it went, but in the end we got a black female character and today we are getting a show about said black female character, so in the end it was a good thing that they created her even if it was for the wrong reasons.

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So, AGAIN, if we leave race out of it, Vixen still doesn't warrant her own show simply because She Exists. Neither does Hawkgirl, Aqualad, Elongated Man, Starfire, Cyborg, Steel, The Eradicator, The Ray, Damage, Black Condor, Maxima, Ms. Martian, Max Mercury, Mr. Terrific, Dr. Mid-Nite, or Wildcat. Those are some of my favorite DC characters (and a few I just kind of like). Some are black, some are white, some are girls, and I'm pretty sure Black Condor was most recently a Native American. They're all awesome, and a few of them even had their own books off and on. You know what they're NOT, though? SOLO STARS. They weren't created to be anything but Team Players, and none of them are going to get their own cartoon show anytime soon, even though some of those would be amaaazing. Now, I'd love to see any of them in a show as part of their respective teams, like the Titans, the JSA, The Outsiders, etc. None of them make ANY sense as the star of their own series. At all. And neither does Vixen, IF we're being totally objective about it.

well how do we know if these characters can stand on their own unless we give them a chance.

Static Shock! again.......

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It's not about the race. It's that she's a C-List Back-Up Player by her very design. Her character is very thin, don't do a show JUST about her, simple. Like I said before, do "Justice League Detroit" and make her the team leader? I'm down, I'd LOVE to see that show, just because they're never going to do that show. Heck, if they're going to play the race card, as I mentioned earlier, that book was mostly "ethnic" heroes, and a cartoon version could actually be a lot *better* because those characters would surely be written much better now than they were 30 years ago. They could "fix" the mistakes they made years ago and actually maybe redeem some of that material (which was actually pretty good when it wasn't being Accidentally Racist). There are Good Reasons to do that show.

Justice league of detroit?? No thank you.

Vixen can have her own show. She doesn't need to be on a team for the rest of her life. Same with Wonderwomen, she doesn't need to be on a team either.

You don't gain popularity be staying in the same place!

if Green Lantern, and Flash can have a series by themselves so can they.
(WonderWomen did kinda have her own live action show though.)

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A show *just* about Vixen, though? She's one of many characters that just doesn't have that kind of clout. It's nothing personal and it's not about race. It's that her being a "Type" is very likely the only reason they're doing the show. And THAT is "sad". We're supposed to be past that kind of thinking.

It's a risk and I'm glad they are trying it.

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Nobody is ever going to convince me one character is "better" or "more deserving" than another JUST because of race or gender. If all things are truly "Equal" and "those things don't matter", then they completely don't and shouldn't matter

please nothing is equal.
if race didn't matter people wouldn't have complained so much about Miles Morales. (bunch of babies)

look Vixen is a neat character let's hope her show does well so maybe she can move up and stand on her own~

*Ninjinister* · 01-17-2015, 09:48 PM

What the flip is going on here? WAYYYYYY too much drama for a bloody web series.

S**t, you know what the only thought in my head was when I read the announcement? "Oh cool it's gonna be in-continuity with Arrow and Flash". That's literally it.

Y'alls overthink your superheroes.

~~Leo656~~ · 01-17-2015, 10:07 PM

Ninjinister: Occasionally.

It's not as heated as it seems, least I don't think so.

BT: Well, you apparently care more about race/gender than I do. I just want a good show that's done JUST to be a good show, not so the creators can pat themselves on the back about how awesome they are. Be real, they're not trying to Save The World or anything.

And again, exactly WHO says every character ever made deserves to be center stage, especially if that was never their intended role? I like Max Mercury. A Lot. There's never any reason to do a Max Mercury show, because he's 99/100 the same as Flash, and he only exists to be a back-up character to The Flash. He's interesting. You can tell some good stories with him. But only a few of them. Because after that, he's Exactly The Same As The Flash, and if you have one, you don't Need the other. He's great in Small Doses. That's most characters.

Vixen, for her part, is SUCH a supporting cast member, that if you skim her wikipedia page, you'll see that Every Major Story she's ever had, was about her Joining a team, or Leaving a team. That's literally all she does!

That doesn't have to be "Bad". 99% of characters in comics Do Not deserve their own book, show, or movie. You can still do good stories with them, but a lot of times they're not really very good on their own. So, what's wrong with keeping them in situations where they thrive? Frankly, I wouldn't even mind a team-up show that wasn't the "Big Seven" Justice League or the Teen Titans. JLU was a good step in the right direction, as was Brave and the Bold, but too limiting because the "real" stars were ever-present. If you're serious about elevating B-Listers and C-Listers, why not "elevate" a bunch of them at once? What would be wrong with doing Justice League Detroit? Have you read it? SOME of it was really good, especially how it ended (Spoiler: Almost Everyone Died). They were able to get away with a lot just because they WERE using C-Listers, and at its best it was really interesting. SOME of it sucked but that's true of anything.

My original point still stands. If you HAVE to pick an obscure character to make a cartoon show out of, and they're not already proven to have the chops to carry their own story, then pick one more than a handful of people have heard of.

*BabyTurtles* · 01-17-2015, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Ninjinister: Occasionally.

It's not as heated as it seems, least I don't think so.

BT: Well, you apparently care more about race/gender than I do. I just want a good show that's done JUST to be a good show, not so the creators can pat themselves on the back about how awesome they are. Be real, they're not trying to Save The World or anything.

And again, exactly WHO says every character ever made deserves to be center stage, especially if that was never their intended role? I like Max Mercury. A Lot. There's never any reason to do a Max Mercury show, because he's 99/100 the same as Flash, and he only exists to be a back-up character to The Flash. He's interesting. You can tell some good stories with him. But only a few of them. Because after that, he's Exactly The Same As The Flash, and if you have one, you don't Need the other. He's great in Small Doses. That's most characters.

Vixen, for her part, is SUCH a supporting cast member, that if you skim her wikipedia page, you'll see that Every Major Story she's ever had, was about her Joining a team, or Leaving a team. That's literally all she does!

That doesn't have to be "Bad". 99% of characters in comics Do Not deserve their own book, show, or movie. You can still do good stories with them, but a lot of times they're not really very good on their own. So, what's wrong with keeping them in situations where they thrive? Frankly, I wouldn't even mind a team-up show that wasn't the "Big Seven" Justice League or the Teen Titans. JLU was a good step in the right direction, as was Brave and the Bold, but too limiting because the "real" stars were ever-present. If you're serious about elevating B-Listers and C-Listers, why not "elevate" a bunch of them at once? What would be wrong with doing Justice League Detroit? Have you read it? SOME of it was really good, especially how it ended (Spoiler: Almost Everyone Died). They were able to get away with a lot just because they WERE using C-Listers, and at its best it was really interesting. SOME of it sucked but that's true of anything.

My original point still stands. If you HAVE to pick an obscure character to make a cartoon show out of, and they're not already proven to have the chops to carry their own story, then pick one more than a handful of people have heard of.

I'm not getting mad either :3 we are just debating Ninjinister

I'll just go down the paragraphs~

1) I do care about race XD because it makes me happy~ Seeing someone that looks like you kicking butt is awesome! it's like a crazy jolt of happiness! it's just nice ya know~ All my life I learned to see myself in any hero because there weren't alot of heroes that looked like me anyway, but when I came across a hero that does.....it feels good, especially if they are getting their own series! I know it's a little sappy...but it's so much easier to image yourself as a hero when you look like them.

I know others also feel this way...so I will always look forward to diverse characters.

and of course I want Vixen to be written well! I don't want them to just stick her in there and be like "here's a black girl....be happy."

2) I didn't say every character HAS to have a series about them, I just said any character can get their chance.

3) but Vixen CAN become important. Just because her character has been fueled by other character doesn't mean it can't change. It's obviously changing now.

4) eh, I knew nothing about guardians of the galaxy and I gave that a shot and was happy. I'll give any obscure hero a shot XD

let's be serious...if it's gonna be animated who wouldn't give the hero a chance?? XD

~~Leo656~~ · 01-17-2015, 10:58 PM

I think the longer this goes the more I feel like what I'm more annoyed about, is the fact that a LOT of interesting C-Listers won't get their own show because their respective teams don't have the name brand of the "real" Justice League. Some characters are just plain better off on a team, and some of the better ones - Justice League International, The Outsiders, Suicide Squad - probably won't see an animated adaptation in the near future, and thus, neither will their respective characters. I mean even if you wanted to, you couldn't give every single one of them their own show. But I'd settle for more Team shows. I mean, there are so many team shows to begin with it can't be that hard. It's just like JLA/Titans is all they think they can "sell". Because I really would like to see some of those characters get more play, too... just not in Starring Roles. If they're not built for it it's really hard to pull it off.

I admit, as far as super-hero race relations I'm too far removed from it to be so attached to it. I never read comics at a time when those characters didn't exist, they were already there by the time I showed up, even the ones that weren't done so well. I can see where you're coming from, I'm just so completely neutral on it that I can see from a mile away when they're doing something to pander, and I'm just not a fan of that particular approach. I can see wanting to see oneself in the material, I just never really read comics that way. I never really cared that Black Lightning was, indeed, black, I just always thought his power set was "Holy Sh*t" levels of bad-ass, what with being able to generate and manipulate electricity. Then there was that time he kick-started Superman's heart after he "died" from Kryptonite poisoning. A guy who can do stuff like that seems genuinely handy to have around.

...But HE never got to be in any of the Justice League cartoons.

That always bugged me. They'd go to huge lengths to make up someone else who was "Just Like But Not Quite Black Lightning". I'm like, "Just Use That Guy!"

"Black Vulcan"... geeeeet outta here.

I'unno, I honestly never thought much about who was what race until I had the internet. I mean, Fire was from Brazil, Vixen was black, Katana was Japanese... that's just how it always was and I never thought twice about it. No, not a ton of them were Superman or Batman level, but then who is? They were a big part of the stories they did appear in and as long as they were played well I never gave anyone's ethnicity a second thought. ((Shrug))

That accent on Vibe, though... even at 7 years old I had some reservations about that.

*BabyTurtles* · 01-17-2015, 11:51 PM

:3 it was nice talking to you Leo656

on another note for anyone that doesn't know much about Vixen (power-wise)

here's a cool video of her kicking butt and taking names XD

~~Leo656~~ · 01-18-2015, 02:28 PM

It's always nice to have a little debate going, if only to prove conclusively that it doesn't HAVE to end up an argument.

You, you're good, you.

*BabyTurtles* · 01-18-2015, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

It's always nice to have a little debate going, if only to prove conclusively that it doesn't HAVE to end up an argument.

You, you're good, you.

I know right

Who needs a sour argument?

peace and love is where it's at!

*sdp* · 01-18-2015, 05:47 PM

What do Iron Man, Guardians of the Galaxy and Green Arrow have in common? Before their respective shows/movies they were B to D grade heroes until their respective shows and now they are household names to the average Joe. Here we have a character whose superpowers are not the usual kind we get in shows, she's black and a woman also two things we don't normally get, its a breath of fresh air. Yes I'd love a Hawkgirl show or whatever but whose to say she deserved the show more than Vixen? If the show is terrible then alright I can agree but why did GotG get a movie before a much more well known hero like Black panther?

~~Leo656~~ · 01-19-2015, 07:03 AM

I'll grant you that most nobody ever knew/cared about Guardians, but Iron Man and Green Arrow were at least HUGELY popular among comics fans. What makes them different from Vixen is that, in her case, even most comics fans have very little idea who she is.

I know, "If they don't try to elevate a character we'll never know if they can," but it doesn't deter my original point that when you pick a character that even the hardcores have to look up, it's a questionable choice on at least some level.

It's like getting a "practical" gift for Christmas. "Hey, this is neat. I mean, I like it. I can use it. But I definitely didn't ask for it, and I probably never would have... but yeah, it's not bad or anything, thanks." It's just never going to mean as much or be received as well as something you actively wanted/asked for/pursued/etc.

*sdp* · 01-19-2015, 11:08 PM

Iron Man was still a nobody to the mainstream audience, it didn't matter if he was comic book popular, that doesn't mean jack with the mainstream. Would you had given a chance for Green Arrow of all characters to start this DCTV Universe?
If anything the Arrowverse has already proven itself that it can do things correctly, I don't see how this is anything but a good announcement, sure I'd be more excited for an animated series based on another person but this doesn't meant his one was a bad choice, wait until you see it. In fact its likely the only reason we're even getting this show at all is because it was pitched as a black woman superhero cartoon which is something that hasn't been done before instead of another generic superhero which are a dime a dozen.

~~Leo656~~ · 01-19-2015, 11:25 PM

What I'm saying is, whether those characters had "mainstream" cred or not, they at LEAST had a reputation with People Who Were Actually Going To Watch The Show Anyway. Whether or not they had to win over any non-fans, they STILL had a guaranteed, built-in audience they could build on.

Vixen doesn't have that. People "like" her, but she's not anyone's "favorite character". She's crazy obscure even to people who read the books. That's why it's a "questionable" move. I really don't see what's so complicated about this. To YOU, it "makes sense" for "social justice warrior"-type reasons. Fine, but that doesn't mean it actually does make sense from a logic or business perspective. It's just, "Eh, let's throw some sh*t at the wall."

It's seriously not complicated. Those other characters at least had a dedicated fanbase before they went "mainstream". Not this one. If they picked almost ANY other character, it would have been a "smarter" choice. That's the facts whether you agree with them or not.

*BabyTurtles* · 01-20-2015, 12:10 AM

Hey...anyone know how long these episodes are gonna be?

I'm already sad that this animated series is only gonna be 6 episodes....but it would be more of a bummer if each episode is only like...5 minutes long.

...T_T I hope they are at least 20-something minutes.....(regular episode length)

~~Leo656~~ · 01-20-2015, 12:15 AM

Yeah, it'd be nice if they at least put some meat on it. It's really gonna be silly and pointless if it's just a couple of quickies.

*BabyTurtles* · 01-20-2015, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Yeah, it'd be nice if they at least put some meat on it. It's really gonna be silly and pointless if it's just a couple of quickies.

T___T .....I want these to be as long as they can!

(hour long episodes would be aweeeeesssommme~.....but that'd be a miracle!)

In the end though....I'll take whatever~ just make the characters interesting and the action scenes entertaining~

~~Leo656~~ · 01-20-2015, 12:46 AM

If they took every adventure Vixen ever had where she wasn't standing next to a dozen other characters, they STILL wouldn't have enough material for even one hour-long episode.

That's kind of the "problem".

I mean, yeah, they can and probably will just make up any ol' thang, but these projects usually rely heavily on pre-existing material from the books. So, again, simply by it being Vixen, they're kind of in a hole where they have to do way more work than they'd have to do if it was, say, Blue Beetle instead. It's always better, or at least Easier, when you have Too Much story to try and adapt than Too Little.

We'll see what they do, though.

*BabyTurtles* · 01-20-2015, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

If they took every adventure Vixen ever had where she wasn't standing next to a dozen other characters, they STILL wouldn't have enough material for even one hour-long episode.

That's kind of the "problem".

I mean, yeah, they can and probably will just make up any ol' thang, but these projects usually rely heavily on pre-existing material from the books. So, again, simply by it being Vixen, they're kind of in a hole where they have to do way more work than they'd have to do if it was, say, Blue Beetle instead. It's always better, or at least Easier, when you have Too Much story to try and adapt than Too Little.

We'll see what they do, though.

Well I don't know alot about Vixen anyway (except for JLU)

so whatever backstory they pull or make up I'll gladly accept~

making up stories isn't that hard really~ (in fact it's kinda fun to start with a blank canvas)

I'm sure they can pull off hour long episodes~ The Flash and Green Arrow are gonna play a part in the series so it will be fun to watch them together.

still...an hour long most likely won't happen anyway....I just want a normal episode length.

01-17-2015, 08:19 PM	#23
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	It means simply that she wasn't "built" for that? Her entire roster of the JLA from her to Vibe to Gypsy were "scabs". C-Listers. That was the entire point of their creation. Further, they were created JUST to be half-assed "ethnic" characters. Of that group, only Vixen was able to hang and evolve into something of a "real" character. That's already a huge victory. Just ask Vibe. "Chica." Leave race out of it entirely. If she was created to be a "back-up player", and has only ever been played that way, and doesn't even really HAVE a character of her own outside of her race (she's basically DC's female version of Black Panther), then WHERE is the sudden logic in making her a Main Solo Character? Aside from pandering, there isn't one. It's literally, "Well, we need a 'Type', or we're gonna get letters, and she's the only one who fits." THAT is wrong. That's an entirely backwards way of telling stories and developing characters. In fact, it's exactly the problem with her creation in the first place - She was literally only created to be "Female And Black", and it took 30 years for her to become "just" a character, and now she's a "Type" again. That's not progress, it's the opposite! I'm sorry you think it is progress, but it's not. If race really doesn't matter, then they would have picked anyone else to be in the show just for the sake of someone other than hardcore comics fans actually knowing who she is, and in turn actually watching the show. It was not, from purely a common sense/"We want good ratings" perspective, a wise decision. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that Young Justice got canned, and that show was full of recognizable characters. So, after that gets canned, their next attempt is a Vixen solo series? To which most of the potential audience replies, "Who?" That's just... that's so illogical on so many levels. I've noticed that you do sometimes have a way of bringing race/gender into things despite that not always being the issue. I get that you want things to be "progressive", and that's good. But when things are done and decisions are made for questionable reasons, that's NOT progressive, it's actually kind of ham-fisted and offensive. Like Vibe. Vibe's creation was kind of sincere - more Latino super-heroes, fair enough - but his portrayal was SO goddamn racist they'd have been better off never bothering at all. Nobody was ASKING for that character, DC just thought they were doing a good thing and instead they made a big mistake that even their own staff were pissed over. The guy drawing the book, who was Latino, asked to be taken off the book because the Vibe character was so blatantly, stereotypically, cartoonishly portrayed. "But it came from a good place! People wanted more minority characters! We were just trying to help!" One step forward, two giant steps backwards. Vixen, if you didn't know, came out of the exact same pitch meeting. A pitch meeting that more or less began with, "So, we need to sell more comics to non-whites. How can we do that in the absolute broadest way possible with the least amount of actual effort?" So let's not give them credit they don't deserve for their clumsy, awkward, bumbling attempts to expand the diversity of their super-hero cast. They've done okay at times and failed miserably at others. But they fail the most spectacularly when they go to great lengths to point out how "Important" it is that the character in question isn't white. So, AGAIN, if we leave race out of it, Vixen still doesn't warrant her own show simply Because She Exists. Neither does Hawkgirl, Aqualad, Elongated Man, Starfire, Cyborg, Steel, The Eradicator, The Ray, Damage, Black Condor, Maxima, Ms. Martian, Max Mercury, Mr. Terrific, Dr. Mid-Nite, or Wildcat. Those are some of my favorite DC characters (and a few I just kind of like). Some are black, some are white, some are girls, and I'm pretty sure Black Condor was most recently a Native American. They're all awesome, and a few of them even had their own books off and on. You know what they're NOT, though? SOLO STARS. They weren't created to be anything but Team Players, and none of them are going to get their own cartoon show anytime soon, even though some of those would be amaaazing. Now, I'd love to see any of them in a show as part of their respective teams, like the Titans, the JSA, The Outsiders, etc. None of them make ANY sense as the star of their own series. At all. And neither does Vixen, IF we're being totally objective about it. It's not about the race. It's that she's a C-List Back-Up Player by her very design. Her character is very thin, don't do a show JUST about her, simple. Like I said before, do "Justice League Detroit" and make her the team leader? I'm down, I'd LOVE to see that show, just because they're never going to do that show. Heck, if they're going to play the race card, as I mentioned earlier, that book was mostly "ethnic" heroes, and a cartoon version could actually be a lot better because those characters would surely be written much better now than they were 30 years ago. They could "fix" the mistakes they made years ago and actually maybe redeem some of that material (which was actually pretty good when it wasn't being Accidentally Racist). There are Good Reasons to do that show. A show just about Vixen, though? She's one of many characters that just doesn't have that kind of clout. It's nothing personal and it's not about race. It's that her being a "Type" is very likely the only reason they're doing the show. And THAT is "sad". We're supposed to be past that kind of thinking. Nobody is ever going to convince me one character is "better" or "more deserving" than another JUST because of race or gender. If all things are truly "Equal" and "those things don't matter", then they completely don't and shouldn't matter. Keep in mind, in all likelihood I'm going to see the show even if it's not religiously. And I've spoken in favor of More Vixen many, many times, mostly in the JLU cartoons. I'm curious about it. I'll most likely buy the DVD, and I haven't even seen it yet. But I don't like their apparent reasons for choosing this particular character over so many potential others. Last edited by Leo656; 01-17-2015 at 08:33 PM.

01-17-2015, 09:48 PM	#25
Ninjinister 無問題 Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Moesko Island, WA Posts: 14,348	What the flip is going on here? WAYYYYYY too much drama for a bloody web series. S**t, you know what the only thought in my head was when I read the announcement? "Oh cool it's gonna be in-continuity with Arrow and Flash". That's literally it. Y'alls overthink your superheroes. __________________

01-17-2015, 11:51 PM	#29
BabyTurtles Foot Elite Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 4,177	:3 it was nice talking to you Leo656 on another note for anyone that doesn't know much about Vixen (power-wise) here's a cool video of her kicking butt and taking names XD __________________

01-18-2015, 05:47 PM	#32
sdp Detoxed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Tokio, Italy Posts: 11,222	What do Iron Man, Guardians of the Galaxy and Green Arrow have in common? Before their respective shows/movies they were B to D grade heroes until their respective shows and now they are household names to the average Joe. Here we have a character whose superpowers are not the usual kind we get in shows, she's black and a woman also two things we don't normally get, its a breath of fresh air. Yes I'd love a Hawkgirl show or whatever but whose to say she deserved the show more than Vixen? If the show is terrible then alright I can agree but why did GotG get a movie before a much more well known hero like Black panther? __________________ *Trapt* *urself Page MiscRave!!!* Click to join The Drome Discord server

01-19-2015, 11:08 PM	#34
sdp Detoxed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Tokio, Italy Posts: 11,222	Iron Man was still a nobody to the mainstream audience, it didn't matter if he was comic book popular, that doesn't mean jack with the mainstream. Would you had given a chance for Green Arrow of all characters to start this DCTV Universe? If anything the Arrowverse has already proven itself that it can do things correctly, I don't see how this is anything but a good announcement, sure I'd be more excited for an animated series based on another person but this doesn't meant his one was a bad choice, wait until you see it. In fact its likely the only reason we're even getting this show at all is because it was pitched as a black woman superhero cartoon which is something that hasn't been done before instead of another generic superhero which are a dime a dozen. __________________ *Trapt* *urself Page MiscRave!!!* Click to join The Drome Discord server

01-17-2015, 06:35 PM	#21
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Can't speak to what I haven't seen yet, I didn't have cable when that show was on. I only really found out about it fairly recently. Seems to have lasted a while so that's good for them. I honestly never followed the character much, I really like Black Lightning and Static seemed kind of too similar. One thing Vixen and Static both have in common, though, is that until their shows were announced, literally nobody ever said, "I really hope someone does (X) as a cartoon." There's still a dozen fairly obscure characters that are nonetheless more well-known than they are, who would get a much better response if someone announced they were doing a cartoon. Power Girl. Zatanna. Lobo. Just spitballing, but I mentioned a bunch of others, earlier. It's not a small list. They're not just going "obscure", with Vixen, they're going waaaaay obscure. And it seems to be for less-than-pure intentions. I mean, heck, even Black Lightning. That guy's been really popular off and on, and they've always portrayed him as a big deal. Thing is, giving him a solo show wouldn't make a ton of sense, because he's always been part of a group, almost never a solo act. And that's the same thing with Vixen. Some characters weren't created to be Stars. But at least a ton more people actually know who Black Lightning is. I mean, it'll probably be just fine, she has a rather unique power set and almost all of DCs cartoons are pretty good, but there's a lot of "iffy" decisions going on behind-the-scenes, is all I'm saying. No WAY was she the first choice they came up with. I'd like to know which ideas they passed on before approving this one. I'm curious.

01-17-2015, 10:07 PM	#26
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Ninjinister: Occasionally. It's not as heated as it seems, least I don't think so. BT: Well, you apparently care more about race/gender than I do. I just want a good show that's done JUST to be a good show, not so the creators can pat themselves on the back about how awesome they are. Be real, they're not trying to Save The World or anything. And again, exactly WHO says every character ever made deserves to be center stage, especially if that was never their intended role? I like Max Mercury. A Lot. There's never any reason to do a Max Mercury show, because he's 99/100 the same as Flash, and he only exists to be a back-up character to The Flash. He's interesting. You can tell some good stories with him. But only a few of them. Because after that, he's Exactly The Same As The Flash, and if you have one, you don't Need the other. He's great in Small Doses. That's most characters. Vixen, for her part, is SUCH a supporting cast member, that if you skim her wikipedia page, you'll see that Every Major Story she's ever had, was about her Joining a team, or Leaving a team. That's literally all she does! That doesn't have to be "Bad". 99% of characters in comics Do Not deserve their own book, show, or movie. You can still do good stories with them, but a lot of times they're not really very good on their own. So, what's wrong with keeping them in situations where they thrive? Frankly, I wouldn't even mind a team-up show that wasn't the "Big Seven" Justice League or the Teen Titans. JLU was a good step in the right direction, as was Brave and the Bold, but too limiting because the "real" stars were ever-present. If you're serious about elevating B-Listers and C-Listers, why not "elevate" a bunch of them at once? What would be wrong with doing Justice League Detroit? Have you read it? SOME of it was really good, especially how it ended (Spoiler: Almost Everyone Died). They were able to get away with a lot just because they WERE using C-Listers, and at its best it was really interesting. SOME of it sucked but that's true of anything. My original point still stands. If you HAVE to pick an obscure character to make a cartoon show out of, and they're not already proven to have the chops to carry their own story, then pick one more than a handful of people have heard of.

01-17-2015, 10:58 PM	#28
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I think the longer this goes the more I feel like what I'm more annoyed about, is the fact that a LOT of interesting C-Listers won't get their own show because their respective teams don't have the name brand of the "real" Justice League. Some characters are just plain better off on a team, and some of the better ones - Justice League International, The Outsiders, Suicide Squad - probably won't see an animated adaptation in the near future, and thus, neither will their respective characters. I mean even if you wanted to, you couldn't give every single one of them their own show. But I'd settle for more Team shows. I mean, there are so many team shows to begin with it can't be that hard. It's just like JLA/Titans is all they think they can "sell". Because I really would like to see some of those characters get more play, too... just not in Starring Roles. If they're not built for it it's really hard to pull it off. I admit, as far as super-hero race relations I'm too far removed from it to be so attached to it. I never read comics at a time when those characters didn't exist, they were already there by the time I showed up, even the ones that weren't done so well. I can see where you're coming from, I'm just so completely neutral on it that I can see from a mile away when they're doing something to pander, and I'm just not a fan of that particular approach. I can see wanting to see oneself in the material, I just never really read comics that way. I never really cared that Black Lightning was, indeed, black, I just always thought his power set was "Holy Sh*t" levels of bad-ass, what with being able to generate and manipulate electricity. Then there was that time he kick-started Superman's heart after he "died" from Kryptonite poisoning. A guy who can do stuff like that seems genuinely handy to have around. ...But HE never got to be in any of the Justice League cartoons. That always bugged me. They'd go to huge lengths to make up someone else who was "Just Like But Not Quite Black Lightning". I'm like, "Just Use That Guy!" "Black Vulcan"... geeeeet outta here. I'unno, I honestly never thought much about who was what race until I had the internet. I mean, Fire was from Brazil, Vixen was black, Katana was Japanese... that's just how it always was and I never thought twice about it. No, not a ton of them were Superman or Batman level, but then who is? They were a big part of the stories they did appear in and as long as they were played well I never gave anyone's ethnicity a second thought. ((Shrug)) That accent on Vibe, though... even at 7 years old I had some reservations about that.

01-18-2015, 02:28 PM	#30
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	It's always nice to have a little debate going, if only to prove conclusively that it doesn't HAVE to end up an argument. You, you're good, you.

01-19-2015, 07:03 AM	#33
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I'll grant you that most nobody ever knew/cared about Guardians, but Iron Man and Green Arrow were at least HUGELY popular among comics fans. What makes them different from Vixen is that, in her case, even most comics fans have very little idea who she is. I know, "If they don't try to elevate a character we'll never know if they can," but it doesn't deter my original point that when you pick a character that even the hardcores have to look up, it's a questionable choice on at least some level. It's like getting a "practical" gift for Christmas. "Hey, this is neat. I mean, I like it. I can use it. But I definitely didn't ask for it, and I probably never would have... but yeah, it's not bad or anything, thanks." It's just never going to mean as much or be received as well as something you actively wanted/asked for/pursued/etc.

01-19-2015, 11:25 PM	#35
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	What I'm saying is, whether those characters had "mainstream" cred or not, they at LEAST had a reputation with People Who Were Actually Going To Watch The Show Anyway. Whether or not they had to win over any non-fans, they STILL had a guaranteed, built-in audience they could build on. Vixen doesn't have that. People "like" her, but she's not anyone's "favorite character". She's crazy obscure even to people who read the books. That's why it's a "questionable" move. I really don't see what's so complicated about this. To YOU, it "makes sense" for "social justice warrior"-type reasons. Fine, but that doesn't mean it actually does make sense from a logic or business perspective. It's just, "Eh, let's throw some sh*t at the wall." It's seriously not complicated. Those other characters at least had a dedicated fanbase before they went "mainstream". Not this one. If they picked almost ANY other character, it would have been a "smarter" choice. That's the facts whether you agree with them or not.

01-20-2015, 12:10 AM	#36
BabyTurtles Foot Elite Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 4,177	Hey...anyone know how long these episodes are gonna be? I'm already sad that this animated series is only gonna be 6 episodes....but it would be more of a bummer if each episode is only like...5 minutes long. ...T_T I hope they are at least 20-something minutes.....(regular episode length) __________________

01-20-2015, 12:15 AM	#37
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Yeah, it'd be nice if they at least put some meat on it. It's really gonna be silly and pointless if it's just a couple of quickies.

01-20-2015, 12:46 AM	#39
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	If they took every adventure Vixen ever had where she wasn't standing next to a dozen other characters, they STILL wouldn't have enough material for even one hour-long episode. That's kind of the "problem". I mean, yeah, they can and probably will just make up any ol' thang, but these projects usually rely heavily on pre-existing material from the books. So, again, simply by it being Vixen, they're kind of in a hole where they have to do way more work than they'd have to do if it was, say, Blue Beetle instead. It's always better, or at least Easier, when you have Too Much story to try and adapt than Too Little. We'll see what they do, though.