Trying to Scientifically define Mutagen's effects

[Tarris Vaal]

Thought I'd make a list of all known mutants from the 2k12 series and their presumed/confirmed 'parentage'. Hopefully this might make it a little easier to spot consistencies for the mutagen discussion (read needless theorising);


1 Tigerclaw - Human/Tiger - Early Kraang experiment. Sane.
2 Leatherhead - Alligator/ ? (possibly just alligator) - early Kraang experiment. Sane and communicative. Fresh mutagen
3 April O Neil - Human/Kraang - Early Kraang experiment to produce a specific effect (pyschic powers)
4 Splinter - Human/Rat - Accidental, shocked. Sane. Uncertain how much physical contact with a rat prior to mutation. Fresh mutagen
5 Leonardo - Human/Turtle - Accidental. Sane. Physical contact with human prior to mutation. Fresh Mutagen
6 Raphael - Human/Turtle - Accidental. Sane (usually). Physical contact with human prior to mutation. Fresh Mutagen
7 Donatello - Human/Turtle - Accidental. Sane. Physical contact with human prior to mutation. Fresh Mutagen
8 Michelangelo - Human/Turtle - Accidental. Sane. Physical contact with human prior to mutation. Fresh Mutagen
9 Snakeweed - Human/Plant - Accidental, panicked. Rare instance of plant hybrid. Physical contact with weeds prior to mutation. Some feral tendencies (human consumption). Sane. Manifestation of exaggerated powers (regeneration). Fresh mutagen
10 Spiderbytez - Human/Spider - Accidental, panicked. Sane. Physical contact with spider unconfirmed. Spiders definitely present during mutation. Manifestation of unrelated powers (acid spit). Fresh mutagen
11 Pigeon Pete - Pigeon/ ? - Deliberate Kraang experiment. Fresh Mutagen. Sane and Communicative.
12 Fishface - Human/Fish - Accidental. Sane. Physical contact with fish significantly prior to mutation. Manifestation of unrelated powers (venomous bite). Fresh mutagen
13 Dogpound - Human/Dog - Deliberate. Sane. Physical contact with dog significantly prior to mutation. Manifestation of unrelated powers (bone spike growth). Fresh mutagen
14 Dr Rockwell - Human/Chimp - Deliberate infliction, likely panicked. Feral. Fresh Mutagen
15 Rat King - Chimp/Human - Deliberate. Highly modified mutagenic compound. Sane. Manifestation of unrelated powers (psychic).
16 Spy Roach - Cockroach/ ? - Accidental. Sane (non communicative). Rare example of fused technological components. Fresh mutagen
17 Justin - Cat/Octopus/Jellyfish/Snake. Accidental Highly undesirable outcome. DNA trace sources only. Rare non humanoid. Manifestation of exaggerated powers. Fresh mutagen. Feral
18 Parasitica Wasp - Wasp/ ? - Rare non humanoid. Deliberate. Fresh mutagen (possibly modified). Manifestation of exaggerated powers. Feral
19 Kirby ONeil (Wingnut) - Bat/human - Accidental, panicked. Fresh mutagen. Feral
20 Ice cream Kitty - Ice Cream/Cat - Accidental. Sane (non communicative). Rare instance of organic compound mutation. Rare non humanoid and food hybrid. Modified mutagen (possibly fresh)
21 Timothy (mutagen man) - Human/ ? - Deliberate, panicked. Non fresh mutagen. Semi Feral. Manifestation of unrelated powers (amoeba like form, mutagen consumption. Acid)
22 Squirrelanoids - Squirrel/ ???? - Accidental. Fresh mutagen. Feral. Manifestation of unrelated powers (Tongue mouths, evolving forms, asexual reproduction)
23 Fungus Humungous - Mushroom/ ? - Accidental. Sane and communicative. Hive mind. Fresh mutagen. Manifestation of exaggerated powers (spores)
24 Slash - Turtle/Human - Deliberate. Sane. Fresh mutagen. Manifestation of exaggerated powers (retractable talons)
25 Rahzar - Dog mutant/? - Accidental. Sane. Non Fresh mutagen. Manifestation of unrelated powers (expelling talons)
26 Baxter Stockman -Fly/Human - Deliberately inflicted. Panicked. Fresh mutagen. Semi Sane.
27 Sir Malachi - Sparrow/Human - Accidental, fresh mutagen. Manifestation of unrelated powers (Pyschic illusions). Sane.
28 Pizza Face - Pizza/Human - Accidental. Semi fresh mutagen. Manifestation of unrelated powers (pyschic control. Levitation. Self replication and regeneration). Semi Sane. Rare example of food hybrid. Possibly figment of imagination.
29 Karai - Human/Snake - Deliberately inflicted, panicked. Non Fresh mutagen. Semi feral. Manifestation of unrelated powers (triple heads, ability to shape change back to near human form).
30 Kraang zombies - Human / ? - Deliberately inflicted. Panicked. Semi Feral. Only examples of weaponized mutagen.
31 Creep - Plant/ ? - Accidental. Sane (non communicative). Manifestation of unrelated powers (mutagen drain). Non Fresh mutagen
32 Punk Frogs - Frog/? - Accidental. Calm. Sane. Non Fresh mutagen
33 Speed Demon - Roadkill?/Petrochemicals? - Accidental. Semi feral. non Fresh mutagen
34 Dr Cluckingsworth MD - Chicken/ ? - Accidental. Calm. Sane. Non humanoid. Non Fresh mutagen.
35 Chimera - Worm/Fish/Eagle. Feral. Non humanoid. Non Fresh mutagen. Accidental.
36-38 Shredder mutants -Human/(Shrimp/Crab/Lobster) - Sane. Unknown circumstances or mutagen source.
39 Bebop - Human/Warthog - Sane. Deliberately inflicted. Fresh mutagen. Controlled mutation.
40 Rocksteady - Human/Rhino - Sane. Deliberately inflicted. Fresh mutagen. Controlled mutation.
41 Muckman - Human/Assorted - Sane (?). Accidental. Fresh mutagen - possibly modified
42: Mondo Gecko - Human/Gecko - Sane. Accidental. Fresh mutagen.

So looking at the numbers for these then;

We have 5 incidences of a non human subject becoming mutated into a humanoid (Punk Frogs, Creep, Pigeon Pete, Squirrelanoids 2nd gen, Spy Roach), but also 4 incidences of non humanoids remaining non humanoid (Chimera, ICK, Dr Cluckingsworth and Speed Demon - also technically Squirrelanoids 1st gen and arguably pizza face)

We also have 2 incidences of plant mutation (one independent subject and one dual subject) and 4 incidences of non communicative animals (Justin, ICK, Dr Cluckingsworth and the Chimera) remaining so after mutation.

There are 3 incidences of inert object mutation (arguably 4) - Speed Demon, ICK, Spy Roach and arguably Pizza face.

Of the 38 mutants listed, 3 are Kraang experiments rather than mutagen related 'incidents' and can be discounted as they would be significantly more modified than standard mutants (April, Leatherhead and Pigeon Pete). Another (Kraang Zombies) are caused by a weaponized mutagen and its effects will differ from the standard mutagen depicted.

Of the remaining 34, only 6 are Feral or semi Feral (arguably some more but that could be down to anger issues than true Feralism). This means that a mutation is Sane (or thereabouts) a whopping 83.5% of the time!

9 incidences of Unrelated powers manifesting in the end subject that were not present in either of the original subjects of mutation. (possibly 10 if you included April O'Neil, but its unclear if Kraang are psychic or not). That's unrelated powers being manifested 23% of the time. That's almost 1 in 4!
- This is strong evidence for the 'Bacteria' effect, that Bacteria which is also being caught up in the mix, is producing unexpected effects in the end subject.

Of those 9 incidences; 3 incidences are of Acid related powers manifesting (4 if you include Stockman, but flies do exhibit that trait anyway). This may be again evidence of Bacterial contamination, if a common bacteria present in many of the cases use concentrations of acidic enzymes to digest.



So questions to look at;

* Mutations of singular subjects. What are they mutating with and why?
* How are the unrelated powers manifesting?
* Is Emotional state having an effect?
* Is there a significant difference between incidences of Fresh and Non Fresh mutagen and their end results?


Any other area we should look at?

[Luckyday]

^Jesus Christ, that is one thorough mutant manifest.

Well...one way to know for sure to prove your mutagen mental state theory is to wait for the Snake Hunt episode. My reason for this is because prier to Karai's mutation, she found out a disturbing revelation that makes her question everything that she believes in and possibly shaken the very core of her identity.

My theory with Karai is that her mutation may have given her amnesia, which fits her mental state and could explains why she refer as "KIBA". Not Karai or Miwa, but someone who is separate from those two identities all together.

Another thing that I theorize that mutants can not get mutated again with more foreign dna cause otherwise we would've have a hairy Tokka rather then a skeletor Rahzar.
In this case, it could be argue that mutagen inside the mutant will act as a buffer from foreign dna in times of an another mutation but will still absorb the energy of that reaction.

There is also one theory out there that mutagen act as like a virus since certain viruses can alter dna but if the mutant's mutagen buffer against foreign dna then could it also block actual viruses and thus making all mutants immune to diseases or at least give them a higher immunity then normal?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Tarris Vaal

Thought I'd make a list of all known mutants from the 2k12 series and their presumed/confirmed 'parentage'. Hopefully this might make it a little easier to spot consistencies for the mutagen discussion (read needless theorising);



10 Spiderbytez - Human/Spider - Accidental, panicked. Sane. Physical contact with spider unconfirmed. Spiders definitely present during mutation. Manifestation of unrelated powers (acid spit). Fresh mutagen
11 Pigeon Pete - Pigeon/ ? - Deliberate Kraang experiment. Fresh Mutagen. Sane and Communicative.
12 Fishface - Human/Fish - Accidental. Sane. Physical contact with fish significantly prior to mutation. Manifestation of unrelated powers (venomous bite). Fresh mutagen
13 Dogpound - Human/Dog - Deliberate. Sane. Physical contact with dog significantly prior to mutation. Manifestation of unrelated powers (bone spike growth). Fresh mutagen
21 Timothy (mutagen man) - Human/ ? - Deliberate, panicked. Non fresh mutagen. Semi Feral. Manifestation of unrelated powers (amoeba like form, mutagen consumption. Acid)
24 Slash - Turtle/Human - Deliberate. Sane. Fresh mutagen. Manifestation of exaggerated powers (retractable talons)



So looking at the numbers for these then;

9 incidences of Unrelated powers manifesting in the end subject that were not present in either of the original subjects of mutation. (possibly 10 if you included April O'Neil, but its unclear if Kraang are psychic or not). That's unrelated powers being manifested 23% of the time. That's almost 1 in 4!
- This is strong evidence for the 'Bacteria' effect, that Bacteria which is also being caught up in the mix, is producing unexpected effects in the end subject.

Of those 9 incidences; 3 incidences are of Acid related powers manifesting (4 if you include Stockman, but flies do exhibit that trait anyway). This may be again evidence of Bacterial contamination, if a common bacteria present in many of the cases use concentrations of acidic enzymes to digest.



So questions to look at;

* Mutations of singular subjects. What are they mutating with and why?
* How are the unrelated powers manifesting?
* Is Emotional state having an effect?
* Is there a significant difference between incidences of Fresh and Non Fresh mutagen and their end results?


Any other area we should look at?

Just a minor note or three here, but:

1: Spiderbytes- The "acid spit" isn't unrelated, spiders actually eat by injecting their venom into the bodies of their prey- it is modified digestive acid that both paralyzes and begins digesting the prey before the spider even eats. So this is actually part of the spider-side of the mutation showing. Nothing unusual or unexpected here.

2: Pete- We don't know for certain that he was a deliberate experiment by the Kraang, just that he was in the facility and was sent by Kirby to find April and deliver his message. If anything, he seems to have been another accident with the mutagen.

3: Fishface. Once again, the acid spit is part of the mutation itself- the species of fish he was mutated to is also venomous, IIRC, and highly dangerous, although the venom is in the spines, IIRC. In his case, it appears to have been shifted to his bite, but otherwise, this is nothing unexpected. There are quite a few venomous species of fish, actually, the most notorious being the Lionfish, but Puffer-fish and others are included in that list, and though I can't recall the name of the exact species he is, they are quite nasty.

4: Dogpound/Rahzar- This one's interesting, the double mutation appears more of a de-evolution back to an earlier form (dogs are simply over-bred and domesticated wolves) so it's possible the mutagen simply regressed Dogpound into the more primitive but also more dangerous species of origin. The bone spikes are an anomaly, but in each case, it appears to simply be a product of the extreme exposure to the mutagen. In BOTH cases, he was COMPLETELY immersed! Also, his initial mutation was FAR from Deliberate- he and Xever were both mutated as a result of smashing the vat of mutagen at the top of the building- something that the turtles were trying to PREVENT. It was an accident.

5: Timothy- Non-related powers? Don't think so. The vat he doused himself with was open at the top (as most of them seem to be) which may imply that it was contaminated with bacteria to begin with. He never had SKIN contact with anyone (his costume was a full-body suit)- including the turtles- so that negates the idea that he had prior contact with another creature before getting mutated. His form indicates that he was mutated into whatever organism(s) he was in contact with at the time- ie, common bacteria etc found on the body and/or in the mutagen itself. Nothing unexpected here, either. And his acid is simply part of his digestion, just as with Spiderbytes- amoebas eat by surrounding their "prey" and digesting it inside their own body. Essentially, the amoeba's entire body acts as its stomach. So his acid makes sense.

6: Slash- Accidental, not deliberate. Raph put the canister in his room for safe-keeping, but it rolled off the table. Presumably, it broke open when it fell, and Slash simply got into it much like the turtles themselves did. Whether he did so consciously or not is open to debate, but given that he was just a normal turtle- with the intelligence of such- at the time, it's doubtful he mutated himself on purpose. More likely, he was simply curious, and just realized what had happened to him AFTER he changed.

7: Karai- her spitting ability is another example of a purely snake-like ability, which again makes perfect sense when one considers that snake venom is injected through the fangs, which act like hypodermic needles. A prime example of this ability is the spitting cobra, which DOES in fact spit the venom from its fangs for up to ten feet- and coincidentally, usually aims for the victims eyes! The two extra heads and ability to (mostly) transform back to a human state is something of an anomaly, but given that the mutagen was contaminated, we don't know what else was in it or how that affected the end result.

All of the above examples indicate mutation-related abilities or origins that are accidental, and in some cases, both. It might also be interesting to note that the mutants with acidic abilities came from creatures that are themselves venomous, such as Karai and Spiderbytes. The only odd one here appears to be the spurs/retractable claws of Dogpound/Rahzar, but this may simply be something unstable in the mutagen, or inherent in his mutation as a carnivore. (It might be useful to note that canines and felines are fairly close together on the evolutionary tree, having originally branched from the same root ancestor.... And felines DO have retractable claws!)

Originally Posted by Luckyday

Another thing that I theorize that mutants can not get mutated again with more foreign dna cause otherwise we would've have a hairy Tokka rather then a skeletor Rahzar.
In this case, it could be argue that mutagen inside the mutant will act as a buffer from foreign dna in times of an another mutation but will still absorb the energy of that reaction.

There is also one theory out there that mutagen act as like a virus since certain viruses can alter dna but if the mutant's mutagen buffer against foreign dna then could it also block actual viruses and thus making all mutants immune to diseases or at least give them a higher immunity then normal?

I don't think Dogpound ever actually PHYSICALLY touched Mikey when he fell into the vat, it looked more like he reached out and missed. So it would appear that neither he nor Timothy ever had contact with any of the turtles- Timothy was wearing a full-body suit, and Dogpound just missed him by a "hair"....

Also, the virus theory is partly mine, and I'd just like to point out that ALL viruses alter DNA. It's how they reproduce- by inserting their own DNA into the host cell's nucleus, and thus turning the cell into a factory to replicate the virus. However, this doesn't necessarily block out other viruses or make them immune to further mutation. It just means that the mutagen (if it works that way) would be inserting the foreign DNA into the host creature as part of the process. So far, it doesn't seem to have made any of them more immune to illnesses or even to more mutagen. (Mikey's Shellacne being a prime example here.)

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

2: Pete- We don't know for certain that he was a deliberate experiment by the Kraang, just that he was in the facility and was sent by Kirby to find April and deliver his message. If anything, he seems to have been another accident with the mutagen.

Well he did say the Kraang poured mutagen all over him and turned him into a half man/half pigeon thing. So the action may have been deliberate, but the result may have been unintended.

7: Karai- her spitting ability is another example of a purely snake-like ability, which again makes perfect sense when one considers that snake venom is injected through the fangs, which act like hypodermic needles. A prime example of this ability is the spitting cobra, which DOES in fact spit the venom from its fangs for up to ten feet- and coincidentally, usually aims for the victims eyes! The two extra heads and ability to (mostly) transform back to a human state is something of an anomaly, but given that the mutagen was contaminated, we don't know what else was in it or how that affected the end result.

I think the heads on her hands are meant to be their to help distract her pray. Karai is a kunoichi which means she is trained to spy on, distract, and seduce (and at times sleep with) her enemy. Heck the word for kunoichi is derived from the strokes use for the kanji for female, but it also means Nine plus One.

Women who are temptresses are also occasionally referred to as snakes or she-snakes which makes Karai's transformation some what appropriate.

But there are species of snake that dazzle their pray as a way of distracting it or attracting it for an easy kill. So in Karai's case the snake heads on her hands would be another means of injecting venom, but they are also able to distract you from her actual head which is most deadly part.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I wonder if he was one of the "test subjects" they were using for the mind-transfer experiment? Maybe he got loose and they spilled it trying to catch him, LOL! They did have a capture human and a pigeon for that experiment- might be that one was a replacement for Pete. Just a thought.....

[Tarris Vaal]

I wonder if he was one of the "test subjects" they were using for the mind-transfer experiment? Maybe he got loose and they spilled it trying to catch him, LOL! They did have a capture human and a pigeon for that experiment- might be that one was a replacement for Pete. Just a thought.....

You say that and the first thing that jumps into my head is 'Catch the Pigeon! Catch the Pigeon!'

Ah.... I'm old...

1: Spiderbytes- The "acid spit" isn't unrelated, spiders actually eat by injecting their venom into the bodies of their prey- it is modified digestive acid that both paralyzes and begins digesting the prey before the spider even eats. So this is actually part of the spider-side of the mutation showing. Nothing unusual or unexpected here.

Fair point with Spiderbytes Though I'd never heard of a spitting spider, it just seemed out of place.

2: Pete- We don't know for certain that he was a deliberate experiment by the Kraang, just that he was in the facility and was sent by Kirby to find April and deliver his message. If anything, he seems to have been another accident with the mutagen.

There isnt much to go on with Pete is there? I know he made an appearance in IDW, was there any more info there?

3: Fishface. Once again, the acid spit is part of the mutation itself- the species of fish he was mutated to is also venomous, IIRC, and highly dangerous, although the venom is in the spines, IIRC. In his case, it appears to have been shifted to his bite, but otherwise, this is nothing unexpected. There are quite a few venomous species of fish, actually, the most notorious being the Lionfish, but Puffer-fish and others are included in that list, and though I can't recall the name of the exact species he is, they are quite nasty.

Stonefish is what you were thinking of I think - its the only one I know which has teeth even remotely like that and has venomous spines - but its the teeth I was thinking of as the Unrelated mutation - to my knowledge anyway, there aren't fish that inject poison through their teeth (and certainly none that inflict hallucinations)

4: Dogpound/Rahzar- This one's interesting, the double mutation appears more of a de-evolution back to an earlier form (dogs are simply over-bred and domesticated wolves) so it's possible the mutagen simply regressed Dogpound into the more primitive but also more dangerous species of origin. The bone spikes are an anomaly, but in each case, it appears to simply be a product of the extreme exposure to the mutagen. In BOTH cases, he was COMPLETELY immersed! Also, his initial mutation was FAR from Deliberate- he and Xever were both mutated as a result of smashing the vat of mutagen at the top of the building- something that the turtles were trying to PREVENT. It was an accident.

I was thinking of how he is the one who deliberately broke the vat - though in fairness he would have had no idea what it would have done (he probably thought it'd explode)

5: Timothy- Non-related powers? Don't think so. The vat he doused himself with was open at the top (as most of them seem to be) which may imply that it was contaminated with bacteria to begin with. He never had SKIN contact with anyone (his costume was a full-body suit)- including the turtles- so that negates the idea that he had prior contact with another creature before getting mutated. His form indicates that he was mutated into whatever organism(s) he was in contact with at the time- ie, common bacteria etc found on the body and/or in the mutagen itself. Nothing unexpected here, either. And his acid is simply part of his digestion, just as with Spiderbytes- amoebas eat by surrounding their "prey" and digesting it inside their own body. Essentially, the amoeba's entire body acts as its stomach. So his acid makes sense.

I have to agree there. I'm thinking more and more, he is a Bacteria/Human mutant. The evidence does keep weighing in that direction.... With that thought I wonder if he can multiply in the same way!

6: Slash- Accidental, not deliberate. Raph put the canister in his room for safe-keeping, but it rolled off the table. Presumably, it broke open when it fell, and Slash simply got into it much like the turtles themselves did. Whether he did so consciously or not is open to debate, but given that he was just a normal turtle- with the intelligence of such- at the time, it's doubtful he mutated himself on purpose. More likely, he was simply curious, and just realized what had happened to him AFTER he changed.

Fair point, I'm probably assuming more intent on Spike's part than he deserves (Slash did seem to know what he was intending)

7: Karai- her spitting ability is another example of a purely snake-like ability, which again makes perfect sense when one considers that snake venom is injected through the fangs, which act like hypodermic needles. A prime example of this ability is the spitting cobra, which DOES in fact spit the venom from its fangs for up to ten feet- and coincidentally, usually aims for the victims eyes! The two extra heads and ability to (mostly) transform back to a human state is something of an anomaly, but given that the mutagen was contaminated, we don't know what else was in it or how that affected the end result.

It was the heads I was thinking of specifically

There is also one theory out there that mutagen act as like a virus since certain viruses can alter dna but if the mutant's mutagen buffer against foreign dna then could it also block actual viruses and thus making all mutants immune to diseases or at least give them a higher immunity then normal?

Also, the virus theory is partly mine, and I'd just like to point out that ALL viruses alter DNA. It's how they reproduce- by inserting their own DNA into the host cell's nucleus, and thus turning the cell into a factory to replicate the virus. However, this doesn't necessarily block out other viruses or make them immune to further mutation. It just means that the mutagen (if it works that way) would be inserting the foreign DNA into the host creature as part of the process. So far, it doesn't seem to have made any of them more immune to illnesses or even to more mutagen. (Mikey's Shellacne being a prime example here.)

That is an interesting theory!

I notice some mutants (though certainly not all) do seem to have evidence of mutagen deposits somewhere on their bodies - spiderbytes claws and Pete's neck come to mind)

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Tarris Vaal

* It is generally kept sealed. Whilst 'fresh' it appears to most commonly combine the prominent DNA features from a creature that the affected subject recently came in contact with (even if this was some time beforehand, eg Dogpound, Kirby and Fishface). How it determines exactly what creature to combine with from the subjects previous encounters is unclear and may be pot luck.



* We know it burns and that mutation is a painful process. This implies a significant increase in thermal energy during a mutation.

Edit:

* Mutagen has shown to require direct contact exposure. Commonly this is depicted as skin contact - suggesting that the mutagen is absorbed through the epidermis and into the cellular structure of the subject, presumably transferred through the body by moving into the bloodstream and the lymphatic system. *snip*


Initial thoughts? Did I miss anything?

My thoughts on this:

For 1. I think it depends on several factors. The exposure has to be very recent (DNA degrades quickly out in the open from UV exposure and bacteria) sufficient quantities (otherwise you'd morph into a giant skin/intestinal parasite as they also live on/inside you) and among the first things the mutagen touches while it's touching you.

2. It's not necessarily a thermal reaction. Strong acids and alkalies burn like a bastard as well.

3. Pretty much. As you mentioned (on an unquoted part) is that it can also be eaten/drunk. The only way we've never seen it operate is through aerosolised spray, and heck we might see that too one day.

How I came to these conclusions is that I did a semi-infamous thought experiment several months back, pretty much imagining myself getting a hold of some mutagen and seeing if I could eventually 'double dip' a al Rahzar. I figured that was the ultimate test, and a nifty way to really think out what a person would have to do in order to avoid getting an unpredictable 'result.' Especially as it would be mutating not once, but twice, and having a potent chance of being 'contaminated' by a undesired DNA source (live cat.)

Pretty much I determined that hair, and clothing tended to be traps for DNA contamination (animal hair, scales, dander) and skin not so much, unless it was heavy and/or very very recent. DNA degrades quickly under UV light and bacteria, and often just skin to skin contact doesn't give off enough DNA to work with. It also has to be enough to ensure that another DNA source (like tiny skin/hair parasites) don't get 'used' or you'd end up like a giant gross looking thing. Mutagen age and amount might not even matter, as Slash grew spines on him, and it came from a tiny amount that was only 'decanted' extremely recently. It also depends on what the mutagen contacts first, as this is likely where it gets it's 'blueprint' from in 'remaking' the individual.

In that 'thought experiment,' I pretty much had to douse myself in a clean bathtub with mutagen, only after making sure it was clean and dry, shaving my hair off, fasting for two days (accidental contamination from food) and removing clothes to avoid accidental contamination from a pet cat. I also had to liberally cover myself in wolf goo from a frozen wolf (likely to be a bit more consistent in the end result then a dog breed) to ensure it was enough and not degraded. Then dousing myself again in more mutagen a week or two later (to allow for enough passage of time for things to 'settle' like in Dogpound's case) and hoping it was enough. All of these if left to chance could produce some of the 'unpredictability' result, because so much is variable and you can easily come up with something different if you screwball enough.

The only thing though I would have to mention that you didn't say on here, is that the mutagen might not even need to do much with the DNA to mutate someone. It might get rearranged a little, but what it could also be 'reading' is the epigenetic effects that happened on a species that helped create it. There is only a 2% difference in DNA between chimp and man, but they look and behave dramatically different. Even between cat and human, there is only a 10% difference. These changes are just as inheritable as DNA, and they are caused by environmental stress, diet and other things, and they can persist for many generations. It doesn't alter a gene, but mainly how it 'expresses' itself.

Any ideas on my hypotheses?

[Tarris Vaal]

Its interesting that you bring this point up actually - there is some possibility that Mutagen does tend to 'prefer' to mutate similar subject specimens - at least insofar as selecting the 'primary' DNA sources.

We know that most mutants are combined results of 2 creatures

Obviously bacteria is a common factor in all mutations, its ever present and as we know Mutagen can affect multiple subjects simultaneously (Chimera), that it also would include DNA from bacteria present.

That said, this bacterial DNA rarely seems to manifest itself - we get some odd or over exaggerated abilities now and again that 'might' be related to bacteria, plus a general increase in resilience and strength - but almost never an actual 'Bacteria man' (with Timothy as a possible exception)

That said, people like Bradford and Xever would have had contact with several other potential DNA sources in the time period between contact and their mutation, yet they end up mutating with DNA from sources several minutes prior.
Is it possible that the Mutagen actively looks for similar DNA sources on its subjects, allowing easier mutational transition (a path of least resistance if you will)? If so, it would explain why some characters are mutated with one DNA source over another.
Another explanation is that the mutagen looks for quantities. It will take the largest available sources of DNA and use those. Individual bacteria will still have independent DNA and even between them, they are unlikely to provide much quantity, whereas a small dog is likely to shed a lot of hair which would stick to clothing (Dogpound), and its possible Xever simply never washed his hands or under his fingernails after handling that fish.

Neither is a perfect explanation, but it does provide some clues.


There is another possibility, though it is unlikely. It is possible that the mutagen is itself a Semi Sentient creature. It is feasible it is acting like a symbiote (and we know it deposits itself in the body of those it mutates - Raph has his extracted, whilst Pete, Kirby and other mutants visibly have Mutagen deposits).
In this scenario, the mutagen may not be operating on anything more than an instinctual level, and may actually be a kind of colony of creatures (similar to a jellyfish), that coalesce as an ooze like substance with the power to mutate creatures.
It would explain a level of selection in the process - why some DNA sources are used and not others. It may also explain why so many mutants are humanoid (a preferred symbiotic state for the mutagen perhaps?), as well as explaining the preference of enhanced resilience, strength and size.

Thoughts?

[Tarris Vaal]

Added Bebop and Rocksteady to the mutant roster!

Interesting point here is that it is clear that Shredder (or more specifically Baxter) has come to understand the mutagen sufficiently to be able to control the results.

It does appear from the evidence depicted in Snake hunt, that mutagen takes the largest amounts of DNA sources. It makes sense from the Chimera example, that it will also take the freshest sources and is likely to splice from 3+ sources.

This means that any given instance of Mutagen exposure will do the following:

1: Identify primary DNA source (usually some unfortunate human)

2: Identify secondary DNA sources (usually fresh samples from another animal). It appears to prefer the next largest quantity, and the freshest available samples.

3: Identify tertiary DNA sources (usually local bacteria - occasionally a recent live meal). This may be used as a means of stabilising the mutation, but also appears to provide the source of many of the more unusual traits.

4: DNA splicing of sources. Implied endothermic fusion of DNA structures, using Primary source as base - resulting commonly in Humanoid end structure.

5: Emotional state at time of mutation and state of sentience of primary and secondary sources affect end results likelihood of Feral mental state.

6: Mutagen excess evapourates or is absorbed into subjects body as mutagen deposits.

Whole process takes apx 10-20secs and is painful due to physical stresses placed on subjects.


There are a few questions though:

* What happens if two sources that are the same species are exposed? Can they be spliced or is the mutagen unable to identify the DNA as sufficiently different?

* Can Kraang be mutated?

* Does the mutagen go bad and become more unreliable? (is the 'Fresh mutagen' theory correct?)

* What is the minimum dosage to start mutation?

* How does the mutagen select secondary sources of equal quantity? Or would it simply splice them all (ala Justin)?

* Why are some non humanoid primary sources becoming humanoid? (Creep)


disclaimer: I am well aware that I am thinking far too hard about this and have probably gone mad and am the only one who cares. But I've started it now and by Darwin's beard I will finish it!

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by Tarris Vaal

There are a few questions though:

* What happens if two sources that are the same species are exposed? Can they be spliced or is the mutagen unable to identify the DNA as sufficiently different?

* Can Kraang be mutated?

* Does the mutagen go bad and become more unreliable? (is the 'Fresh mutagen' theory correct?)

* What is the minimum dosage to start mutation?

* How does the mutagen select secondary sources of equal quantity? Or would it simply splice them all (ala Justin)?

* Why are some non humanoid primary sources becoming humanoid? (Creep)


disclaimer: I am well aware that I am thinking far too hard about this and have probably gone mad and am the only one who cares. But I've started it now and by Darwin's beard I will finish it!

Maybe when mutagen have nothing but your dna sample in it, it will heal injuries since it trying to replicate the likeness of the secondary dna but can still mutate everything else.

This only way to make sense with Creep coming into being through Leo's vomited mutagen medicine.

Did Anton tech became fuse with his body after he became a mutant?

[Tarris Vaal]

Maybe when mutagen have nothing but your dna sample in it, it will heal injuries since it trying to replicate the likeness of the secondary dna but can still mutate everything else.

I dont know his character very well, but didn't Hun have something like that going on?

Did Anton tech became fuse with his body after he became a mutant?

I did notice that as well, but wasn't sure if I was seeing things! Its possible that he does/did have a mohawk under the laser emitter....thing, and clothes in mutations vary dramatically (Steranko's clothing also completely altered)

Guess we'll find out when and if Bebop uses the mohawk to throw energy blasts at people again.

[Tarris Vaal]

An interesting point that came up from a rewatch of the new episode - Karai mentions she is dangerous and the others jump on the assumption she is slowly becoming more feral - losing herself to the snake.

Though she has had 3 months on her own in a warzone...

That aside, it did make me wonder if this is a feature of some mutations, or an aspect of the effects of Baxter's tampering with the mutagen used on Karai.

I cant think of any other examples of semi feral mutants or even feral mutants becoming more so over extended time periods. The Turtles and Splinter would themselves be prime candidates if this was a common effect as they're among the oldest mutants in the show!

But the only other possible example is Snakeweed (when he starts kidnapping humans to turn into fertilizer) and that is pretty tenuous as he is clearly still able to speak and reason.

I am missing someone who also showed that effect?

[Metalwolf]

I'm copy-pasting my response entirely from the 'Serpent Hunt' thread, mainly because I doubt it will get discussed much since it looks like it's winding down, and also because it dovetails nicely with the question you are asking:

"I'm wondering though, maybe it's the 'spliced' DNA causing this? Can animal DNA even cause somebody to become more animal-like in behavior, or do you think that some of this is purely mental, akin to people who think they're wolves (lycanthropy)?

I admit I was also bothered a bit at the notion that some of this DNA was actively 'spliced' and that mutants are 'hybrids,' pretty much because any changes to DNA will be very small and a lot of it is already shared (like 90% similarity between human and cat, for instance, or 96% now understood between human and chimp.) You can't have too much change, or you lose the ability for humanlike reasoning, ability to speak, and so on. I'm wondering if the mutants aren't really just like those lab animals that you hear about, only having a gene or two spliced in, but gaining the whole ability to 'glow' under florescent lights (cats and pigs) or have spider silk protein in their milk (goats.) Humans can grow horns even without mutation, and they don't need animal DNA to have tails or tons of hair or act feral, but maybe the mutagen just 'switches on' those atavistic or abnormal traits when it isn't making a small change to the DNA.

I don't know, I'm just rambling here. Each episode seems to have something I like, and yet another thing I could have easily done without. "

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Tarris Vaal

I dont know his character very well, but didn't Hun have something like that going on?


I did notice that as well, but wasn't sure if I was seeing things! Its possible that he does/did have a mohawk under the laser emitter....thing, and clothes in mutations vary dramatically (Steranko's clothing also completely altered)

Guess we'll find out when and if Bebop uses the mohawk to throw energy blasts at people again.

Yes, Hun does become enhanced in the IDW comics. It's debatable if it was actual mutagen or just the base "ooze", however.

And yes Anton DOES have a Mohawk. He always has in every incarnation, though it's usually purple, not pink. It's part of his "persona" as a street-thug (or in this case thief).

And contrary to what most seem to think, I don't think the mutagen affects clothing beyond tearing it in the process of the mutation. It's a very drastic bodily alteration (a la Hulk), and is likely to cause the body itself to rip through clothing and tear it to pieces. What's left behind is usually whatever was on parts of the body that didn't change drastically- like why Dogpound wears pants but no shirt. His upper half became too large for his shirt, but his lower half didn't change much at all. Fishface changed so much he lost ALL his clothes, and Timothy did, as well. Karai lost everything below the waits when she grew the tail. (Though she's inexplicably dressed in her human form....) This seems to hold true for all the mutants that were originally human- whatever they were wearing is rendered useless by the change, and falls off/apart.

[Luckyday]

Perhaps it all depends on the chemistry on the clothes or any inorganic material. I think ice cream is made mostly of oxygen and hydrogen and other metals can get along with the other elements.

Organic life forms themselves are made of CHNOPS: carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and sulfur.

What I want to know do all organics have the same amount of the building blocks of CHNOPS?

[Tarris Vaal]

Organic life forms themselves are made of CHNOPS: carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and sulfur.

What I want to know do all organics have the same amount of the building blocks of CHNOPS?

I dont think so - though I imagine that very large groups of animals will have very similar proportions of those elements (mammals for instance). I will have to check into that one

I admit I was also bothered a bit at the notion that some of this DNA was actively 'spliced' and that mutants are 'hybrids,' pretty much because any changes to DNA will be very small and a lot of it is already shared (like 90% similarity between human and cat, for instance, or 96% now understood between human and chimp.) You can't have too much change, or you lose the ability for humanlike reasoning, ability to speak, and so on. I'm wondering if the mutants aren't really just like those lab animals that you hear about, only having a gene or two spliced in, but gaining the whole ability to 'glow' under florescent lights (cats and pigs) or have spider silk protein in their milk (goats.) Humans can grow horns even without mutation, and they don't need animal DNA to have tails or tons of hair or act feral, but maybe the mutagen just 'switches on' those atavistic or abnormal traits when it isn't making a small change to the DNA

I'd expect mutagen does work in a similar way - that it is literally altering very small - but key - parts of the primary subjects DNA to incorporate aspects of any secondary and tertiary subjects. Given that the vast majority of mutants are humanoid (or based off their primary subjects physical form) it seems logical that massive alterations to DNA are not normally the case

Though having said that, Timothy, the Creep and Karai appear to be exceptions - Karai being only slightly more than usual.

And contrary to what most seem to think, I don't think the mutagen affects clothing beyond tearing it in the process of the mutation. It's a very drastic bodily alteration (a la Hulk), and is likely to cause the body itself to rip through clothing and tear it to pieces. What's left behind is usually whatever was on parts of the body that didn't change drastically- like why Dogpound wears pants but no shirt. His upper half became too large for his shirt, but his lower half didn't change much at all. Fishface changed so much he lost ALL his clothes, and Timothy did, as well.

The simplest explanation is always the best!

Karai lost everything below the waist when she grew the tail. (Though she's inexplicably dressed in her human form....)

That... is a very good point. I know its only for the purposes of keeping the censors happy but it does throw a spanner in the works for the purposes of this thread (not to mention, can you imagine the Turtles faces if she didn't get her clothes returned when mutating back?)

This is frustrating because Kirby states he is nude upon returning to human form - though in fairness to him at very least his upper clothing is shown to be ripping.

So - to explain that then, we know that Karai was fully submerged and not merely splashed, so her armour is fully exposed to Mutagen as she was. Armour plates like her greaves, bracers and gloves could have been incorporated into the make up of her scales, and possibly teeth. The rest of her clothing is likely to be boots and a bodysuit, and quite possibly a natural fibre like cotton - which would have its own DNA - however if it were to be retromutated, its more likely to return to its natural form. The armour plates would also likely be returned to a state similar to filings or dust (or scales) and it beggars the question why not the breastplate...

Sooooooo.... one possibility is that we know that even in human form she is not retromutated - she is still a mutant and exhibits shape shifting abilities. We also know that she is in a weak mental state and is likely to fall back onto familiar thought processess.

Is it possible that the clothing we see when she is in human form is not actually clothing? Perhaps her uniform is a symbol of the persona she is most comfortable in and when she shifts into human form, she is shifting herself into a form which matches that which she is most comfortable in - effectively copying her mental image of herself.
Perhaps her 'real' clothing really was destroyed or discarded except for the breastplate, the rest is just skin, scales and bone made to 'look' like her original form - rather similar to the effect Mystique has in the Xmen franchise.

That would at least offer some explanation that works, though would give her highly unusual abilities not found in snakes (though that wouldnt be the first time unrelated abilities appeared in a mutant). If it was the case, then in theory she should be capable of turning into other appearances with tell tale signs like eyes and teeth - she just isnt aware she can do so, and isnt practiced to do so.

"I'm wondering though, maybe it's the 'spliced' DNA causing this? Can animal DNA even cause somebody to become more animal-like in behavior, or do you think that some of this is purely mental, akin to people who think they're wolves (lycanthropy)?

Well its possible, but feral mutations are comparatively rare, and some examples appear to be feral because of other mental stresses - Karai for instance. Even Timothy has fear, hate, disappointment, disgust and anger affecting him - more than enough to induce a feral state (or at least the appearance of one)

Most feral mutations are generally feral creatures to begin with. Kirby is about the only example of true feral behaviour without the existing mental stress to potentially induce it anyway.

[NoName999]

Here's the major hole with the mutagen:

So the mutagen is suppose to turn into the last thing you touched yes? At first, we'd just assumed that the last thing you touched HAD to be a living organism. Which is how we got Snakeweed (human touching plant) and the Pigeon Man (pigeon touching human). Which could also explain Timothy's mutation as a being a giant bacteria, virus, whatever

But the problem stems from one mutant: Ice Cream Kitty. She touched ice cream. Ice cream obviously isn't alive. So her mutation should have mutated her into a human since April was the last to touched her (if not that, at least part Kraang lol). So the mutagen transforms you into the last physical thing you touched, living or not.

So that begs the question why every human, who are CLEARLY wearing clothes when they mutated, are not turning into fabric people or whatever.

[Tarris Vaal]

Speed demon (and possibly Pizza face) also falls into this awkward category -

The best explanation is that mutagen can react with semi organic components (food and natural fibres) and absorbs them along with the primary subject.

Under normal circumstances ICK technically had the most contact with April and/or Mikey so, in theory should have become a humanoid cat (not dissimilar to Tigerclaw), however obviously this didnt happen.

It can be explained a little by realising that the mutagen reaction had already started before it came into contact with the cat. Mikey had spilled Ice cream into the mutagen a short time prior. The mutagen was clearly reacting to the ice cream and then the cat came into contact with the mix.

Best guess to explain the situation would be that the Ice cream is the Primary Subject - but because it isn't alive it can't mutate into anything beyond mush. If left alone it probably would have fizzled out and become inert. As it was, the cat started eating it, giving the mix a secondary subject with a dash of Mikey and the usual bacteria as tertiary.

The result is an Ice cream mutant that bears cat like qualities but is able to have limited understanding of English (inherited memory perhaps?)

Thats my best guess based on evidence anyway


Speed demon's best guess explanation was a bit earlier. Ive avoided Pizza face because I cant decide if the episode is genius or was just a fevered dream I had.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Tarris Vaal

The simplest explanation is always the best!


That... is a very good point. I know its only for the purposes of keeping the censors happy but it does throw a spanner in the works for the purposes of this thread (not to mention, can you imagine the Turtles faces if she didn't get her clothes returned when mutating back?)

This is frustrating because Kirby states he is nude upon returning to human form - though in fairness to him at very least his upper clothing is shown to be ripping.

Sooooooo.... one possibility is that we know that even in human form she is not retromutated - she is still a mutant and exhibits shape shifting abilities. We also know that she is in a weak mental state and is likely to fall back onto familiar thought processess.

Is it possible that the clothing we see when she is in human form is not actually clothing? Perhaps her uniform is a symbol of the persona she is most comfortable in and when she shifts into human form, she is shifting herself into a form which matches that which she is most comfortable in - effectively copying her mental image of herself.
Perhaps her 'real' clothing really was destroyed or discarded except for the breastplate, the rest is just skin, scales and bone made to 'look' like her original form - rather similar to the effect Mystique has in the Xmen franchise.

That would at least offer some explanation that works, though would give her highly unusual abilities not found in snakes (though that wouldnt be the first time unrelated abilities appeared in a mutant). If it was the case, then in theory she should be capable of turning into other appearances with tell tale signs like eyes and teeth - she just isnt aware she can do so, and isnt practiced to do so.

Well its possible, but feral mutations are comparatively rare, and some examples appear to be feral because of other mental stresses - Karai for instance. Even Timothy has fear, hate, disappointment, disgust and anger affecting him - more than enough to induce a feral state (or at least the appearance of one)

Most feral mutations are generally feral creatures to begin with. Kirby is about the only example of true feral behaviour without the existing mental stress to potentially induce it anyway.

I'm not entirely sure her clothes would even be affected by it. For starters, the metal parts would have no organic compounds (beyond traces from HER) to react with/to the mutagen. The "organic" parts (assuming they ARE, and not synthetic materials) would simply be inert, as they would no longer have any living material to mutate. Cotton fiber or silk are organically PRODUCED, but are not living themselves, certainly not after having been processed. They'd be "dead" organic material, not something the mutagen could interact with. I think it really IS the simplest explanation- most mutants rip through their clothes, and Karai's "clothes" in human form are just what you originally guessed- an attempt to appease the censors. That said, it IS possible it is a form of camouflage of sorts, as some reptiles (mostly lizards, granted) are capable of changing color to match their surroundings. In this case, it's more likely the "camouflage" is adapted to mimic clothes for the sake of modesty. Assuming such a thing is possible in the first place, of course.

Originally Posted by NoName999

Here's the major hole with the mutagen:

So the mutagen is suppose to turn into the last thing you touched yes? At first, we'd just assumed that the last thing you touched HAD to be a living organism. Which is how we got Snakeweed (human touching plant) and the Pigeon Man (pigeon touching human). Which could also explain Timothy's mutation as a being a giant bacteria, virus, whatever

But the problem stems from one mutant: Ice Cream Kitty. She touched ice cream. Ice cream obviously isn't alive. So her mutation should have mutated her into a human since April was the last to touched her (if not that, at least part Kraang lol). So the mutagen transforms you into the last physical thing you touched, living or not.

So that begs the question why every human, who are CLEARLY wearing clothes when they mutated, are not turning into fabric people or whatever.

Again, the fabric would be dead/inert, and thus the mutagen has nothing to interact with. In every case so far, it has only interacted with LIVING organic materials and/or subjects. Even the "exceptions" of ICK and Pizza Face (if he's not a dream-induced fantasy) are composed of organic components that are still active- ice cream has live cultures in the cream, so ICK is basically part cat, part- milk cultures. Weird, but plausible. Pizza Face (if "real") would have the genetic material from the tomatoes, onions, mushrooms, and perhaps the cheese cultures as secondary subjects, so while it's peculiar, there is still LIVING material for the mutagen to work with- clothing doesn't have that.

Originally Posted by Tarris Vaal

Speed demon (and possibly Pizza face) also falls into this awkward category -

The best explanation is that mutagen can react with semi organic components (food) and absorbs them along with the primary subject.

Under normal circumstances ICK technically had the most contact with April and/or Mikey so, in theory should have become a humanoid cat (not dissimilar to Tigerclaw), however obviously this didnt happen.

It can be explained a little by realising that the mutagen reaction had already started before it came into contact with the cat. Mikey had spilled Ice cream into the mutagen a short time prior. The mutagen was clearly reacting to the ice cream and then the cat came into contact with the mix.

Best guess to explain the situation would be that the Ice cream is the Primary Subject - but because it isn't alive it can't mutate into anything beyond mush. If left alone it probably would have fizzled out and become inert. As it was, the cat started eating it, giving the mix a secondary subject with a dash of Mikey and the usual bacteria as tertiary.

The result is an Ice cream mutant that bears cat like qualities but is able to have limited understanding of English (inherited memory perhaps?)

Thats my best guess based on evidence anyway

Speed demon's best guess explanation was a bit earlier. Ive avoided Pizza face because I cant decide if the episode is genius or was just a fevered dream I had.

See above for ICK and Pizza Face. Incidentally, she seems semi-intelligent because the last thing she touched BEFORE eating the mutagen-ice-cream mix was Mikey- this might also explain why they understand each other and have such a strong bond. He's literally part of her!

[Tarris Vaal]

Certainly if what we are supposing is the case then yes ICK would carry a chunk of Mikey's DNA!

Thinking on this it would also imply a few interesting thoughts:

Ice Cream Kitty is partly related to Mikey

Slash is related to Raphael

A possibility that not all the turtles are actually descended from the same human 'parent' - as we only have the mental flashback image of the Turtle's origin to work with, and Splinter doesn't physically touch them during that sequence, we can only presume that Splinter handled them earlier and thereby left DNA traces to mutate with. Its possible that one or more of the Turtles may actually be descended from the pet store attendant...

I'm not entirely sure her clothes would even be affected by it. For starters, the metal parts would have no organic compounds (beyond traces from HER) to react with/to the mutagen.

My only quibble with this are her shoulder pads when in snake form. In that... she has shoulder pads in snake form. These are clearly metallic and are quite a distinct visual style to match her reptillian form, yet they dont exist at all when she's in human form. This is - needless to say - frustrating.

On an unrelated note

Rewatching some of season 2 and I noticed Sir Malachi is missing a leg. He clearly has an artificial leg in the flashback of him mutating, and has a peg leg as a mutant. This implies that the mutagen did not regenerate the missing limb, which at least answers the question of whether the mutation causes healing (apparently not). It is possible Malachi had a genetic deviation that caused his leg not to develop properly - which would then be passed into his mutation.