What Grinds Your Gears? :)

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by snake

So if it's drawn or written it's not porn? Yeah okay.

I kind of have to agree. DeviantArt had those rules for a long time, and it might be that they are now getting around to enforcing them after a bunch of complaints. Anybody can call their stuff 'erotic art,' but sometimes it starts blurring the lines into soft porn, especially once it gets into heavily suggestive stuff.

Plus Netkeeper is right, there are websites out there to post that stuff, and it might be best to just post it elsewhere. I think the initial cause might be some people trying to circumvent the porn rules, so likely this is the result.

As for 'Underage art', even if it's drawn, 'underaged art' is a very risky thing to have on one's site. I'm not surprised if Deviant Art is removing it, as the owners can face jail time and close the site if the feds ever think it's promoting child porn. Some folks might not think it's fair, but sometimes dem's da breaks.

[Cure]

I don't have a problem with the turtles making out because they're dudes, I have a problem with it because they're brothers. Maybe the people who are taking them down are thinking the same thing.

Plus yeah, under age.

[pennydreadful]

What's the dealio with the ratings system over at FF.net, Bubbly? I haven't been there for years and years after they changed their system to disallow some (but not all) NC-17 material.

I've also found FF.net's category system very frustrating to navigate - if someone wants to read Turtle fic (of any rating), you've got to browse through four separate categories for Cartoons, Television, Movies and Comics respectively. Am I hopelessly behind the times - is there some easier way of finding Turtle fic all in one place that I don't know about? Or is FF.net just badly in need of upgrading their site to something more user-friendly?

You know what else would be nice on FF.net? A feature which sends you an email alert when new fics go into the TMNT category.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by snake

So if it's drawn or written it's not porn? Yeah okay.

Um no you missed the point. Even if the story or artwork in question only has IMPLIED relations or just two MNT's kissing or cuddling its being cited as porn. Which its not. Many of the removed works only have incidental sexual situations as a small part of the story, but they are being targeted just as if they were nothing BUT sex!

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

Here's the thing - DA aren't just taking down art and fic which clearly depict sexual acts taking place - they're removing anything where a relationship is even implied. Harmless art where one character is leaning in for a kiss, art where they're embracing, stuff which does not show any objectionable material below the waist.

If they're going to take down pics of the Turtles hugging or kissing one another (which they have) while citing the "underage" clause... that's fine, that's their prerogative. But I expect them to do it across the board. I expect this to be applied to major fandoms like Harry Potter. Let's see them taking down all pics of school-age Harry and Ginny kissing or cuddling, or Ron and Hermione.

Of course, they won't, because there would be a huge outcry. But it just highlights the hypocrisy and the heterosexism at play here.

I don't care that they're enforcing the rule, it's their site and they can make whatever terms of service they like. If users don't like it, they can (and should) go somewhere else. But apply those terms of service to all users, otherwise it's unfair. What bothers me is that a fandom which creates mm work is being targeted, and het-art or ff art (like the plethora of Disney Princess femslash on the site, with characters who are canonically under 18 ) is allowed to remain. It's hypocritical.

She is right. They are. Showing a blatant disregard for an entire fanbase because someone chooses to play fast and loose with their interpretation of a rule that was never announced as part of an update according to many of the victims. And the reason is very obviously to promote a personal agenda.

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

I kind of have to agree. DeviantArt had those rules for a long time, and it might be that they are now getting around to enforcing them after a bunch of complaints. Anybody can call their stuff 'erotic art,' but sometimes it starts blurring the lines into soft porn, especially once it gets into heavily suggestive stuff.

Plus Netkeeper is right, there are websites out there to post that stuff, and it might be best to just post it elsewhere. I think the initial cause might be some people trying to circumvent the porn rules, so likely this is the result.

As for 'Underage art', even if it's drawn, 'underaged art' is a very risky thing to have on one's site. I'm not surprised if Deviant Art is removing it, as the owners can face jail time and close the site if the feds ever think it's promoting child porn. Some folks might not think it's fair, but sometimes dem's da breaks.

Sadly their I.terpretation of underage includes material based on older versions as well like parts of Mirage where they are well above age of consent.

[ProactiveMan]

Does DeviantArt actively investigate flagged content or is it mostly automated like YouTube?

[pennydreadful]

I think there's some confusion here about why people are annoyed about the DA crackdown. The problem is not that mature content is being removed. The problem is that:

1. Art and fic which does not have any sex or nudity in it is being taken down
2. Art and fic with non-graphic acknowledgement of relationships between the Turtles (despite being depicted as older than 18 ) is being taken down.

DA's TOS basically state that a character who is under 18 in their original context cannot be aged up in order to portray them in adult situations. This is, of course, ignoring the fact that the Turtles have been shown as adults within the canon (and, in fact, during the Mirage comics - and you don't get much more "original context" than the Mirage comics). Art is being taken down under the by-line of "the Turtles are under 18 during some parts of the canon material, therefore any artwork showing/discussing/hinting at relationships must be removed, regardless of how old the characters are drawn or written as". For example, artwork or fanfic depicting a relationship (in non-explicit terms) between the characters during the SAINW timeline is being deleted by staff citing this rule.

Again - if those are the rules, those are the rules, that's fair enough. But those rules should then be applied to all fandoms.

I know for damn sure that there's a plethora of MLP erotica on the website which violates those rules, as well as numerous other fandoms like Sailor Moon, Pokemon, Kingdom Hearts, Digimon, Pokemon, Harry Potter, etc. I don't, however, honestly believe that they're going to go after those groups to the extent that the tcest groups have been, because those fandoms are much larger. There would be significant outcry and loss of revenue from paying members.

If these are DA's policies and they're cleaning house, ok - but half of the fandoms on DA are in violation of those policies and nothing's being done about them.

At the end of the day, tcesters are a small (though larger than a lot of people might think) fringe group within an existing fandom. The majority of people don't care if tcest gets cracked down on because it's generally looked down on by the rest of the fandom. And I'm not even going to debate whether or not tcest is or isn't ok - people have their own opinions on the subject and those opinions are pretty set in stone as it is; folks are either into it or they're not.

The problem isn't tcest, or underage art. The problem is inconsistent and discriminatory censorship practices.

EDIT: Proactive, in answer to your question - DA staff have said that they investigate content personally, rather than using a bot-removal system. Given that some of the art and fic in question that has been deleted was in storage - that is, not visible to anyone except DA staff and the artist/writer who used the account - I'd have to say that this verifies it.

[plastroncafe]

I have absolutely no idea why people still use FF.net when AO3 is vastly superior a resource. Not only can you download versions of their stories for reading on remote devices, but they don't censor for content, and allow you to search or block for that very content.

Don't like how people are playing with their dolls? You can filter that.
Want to find people who play the same way you do? You can filter for that too.

As for Deviant Art, it's all about the fandom.
I just don't see Harry Potter fandom getting into a strop because of a pairing they don't like, and MLP fandom is too busy justifying why it's socially acceptable for boys to exist in that fandom to begin with to care.

TMNT, however, has this gigantic divide between its Curative and it's Transformative fandoms.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

DA's TOS basically state that a character who is under 18 in their original context cannot be aged up in order to portray them in adult situations.

That is an incredibly stupid rule. One of the stupidest I've heard placed on something in terms of art, and even things just trying to pass as art. By that theory, we were all once under 18 in our 'original context,' should nude photographs of adults (artistic, not erotic) be removed because they were once underage?

[ProactiveMan]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

EDIT: Proactive, in answer to your question - DA staff have said that they investigate content personally, rather than using a bot-removal system. Given that some of the art and fic in question that has been deleted was in storage - that is, not visible to anyone except DA staff and the artist/writer who used the account - I'd have to say that this verifies it.

Thanks, that makes sense.

From what I can see, I have to agree with the main point of the complaint. DeviantArt needs to enforce its policies consistently. With something as subjective as art and artistic expression, or with terms like 'pornography', 'adult' and 'inappropriate', you have to state your working definition and apply it to all content, otherwise people don't know where the boundaries are.

As I see it, 'art' is hard to define and is sometimes offensive, and that does not fit well with a complaints based social media policy.

[pennydreadful]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

That is an incredibly stupid rule. One of the stupidest I've heard placed on something in terms of art, and even things just trying to pass as art. By that theory, we were all once under 18 in our 'original context,' should nude photographs of adults (artistic, not erotic) be removed because they were once underage?

That's the thing - it's totally understandable that DA don't want to encourage loli or shota style work. I understand that there are legality issues when it comes to this kind of thing, and a line has to be drawn so that the site can't be abused because of a loophole.

By the same token, it becomes a bit of a grey area when we're talking about adolescent fictional (and in some cases, non-human) characters, and it certainly seems like the TOS are kiiiinda being bent here to take out some (mm) fandoms, while leaving others (depicting suggestive ff, solo-f or mf) completely alone.

What does cause me to quirk an eyebrow is that Jane Doe can turn 18, shave off every inch of body hair and post a legs-apart nude shot on DA and call it art. As long as there's nobody else *in* the shot touching/pressing against anything, no penetration, fluids, mouths on things... by DA's rules and TOS, it's not porn. Ok, fair enough.

You can draw and post a picture of Hermione in her school uniform, skirt so short that it's practically non-existent, high-beaming through her shirt and with boobs bigger than her head. Technically, against their "original context" rules, but it's not enforced.

You can draw and post Hermione and Cho Chang in their school uniforms, pinning one another down on a bed. Once again, technically against their "original context" rules, but it's not enforced.

I don't even have to log in to get past the mature content filter or scroll past the first page to see pictures of Misty from Pokemon in her underwear - it literally comes up in their first 10 results. Also against their "original context" rules.

Do a search for Rei Ayanami or Asuka from Neon Genesis and you'll find more sexualized artwork of those 14 year old characters than you can poke a stick at (not to mention people cosplaying as them in lingerie). And (say it with me here, gang) that's - you guessed it! - against "original context" rules and yet not enforced.

In fact, none of the examples of fictional character art I've listed here are hidden behind the mature content filter.

But a drawing of Leo and Raph where their age is ambiguous and they're kissing - that gets ripped down. Seems kinda hypocritical. I mean... who are they protecting here? Their users? Underage turtle mutants? All an underage DA user has to do is create an account and fudge their DOB in order to be able to see past the mature content filters - hell, even without logging in, people of any age can see suggestive content right on the front page (and in some cases, promoted as a Daily Deviation).

So again, while I understand that they have rules in place ostensibly to deter people drawing pedo art and swapping it (which again, I shall reiterate, is something which I fully support) - the way they enforce the rules is inconsistent, unfair, impractical and - dare I say it - antediluvian.

[Netkeeper]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

Here's the thing - DA aren't just taking down art and fic which clearly depict sexual acts taking place - they're removing anything where a relationship is even implied. Harmless art where one character is leaning in for a kiss, art where they're embracing, stuff which does not show any objectionable material below the waist.

If they're going to take down pics of the Turtles hugging or kissing one another (which they have) while citing the "underage" clause... that's fine, that's their prerogative. But I expect them to do it across the board. I expect this to be applied to major fandoms like Harry Potter. Let's see them taking down all pics of school-age Harry and Ginny kissing or cuddling, or Ron and Hermione.

Here's another thing -- this DOES happen in other fandoms. I've seen it happen in both Sonic and Professor Layton fandoms. But the image needs to be found by staff first before they take action, and it's easier to find fic than art because you can text search for it. I have seen WAY more fic get taken down than art on that site.

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

What's the dealio with the ratings system over at FF.net, Bubbly? I haven't been there for years and years after they changed their system to disallow some (but not all) NC-17 material.

I've also found FF.net's category system very frustrating to navigate - if someone wants to read Turtle fic (of any rating), you've got to browse through four separate categories for Cartoons, Television, Movies and Comics respectively. Am I hopelessly behind the times - is there some easier way of finding Turtle fic all in one place that I don't know about? Or is FF.net just badly in need of upgrading their site to something more user-friendly?

Just use AO3. There's literally no need to use FF.net unless you're desperate to find fic of your OTP, a situation I may or may not have applied to me on more than one occasion. FF.net is a piece of ****.

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

DA's TOS basically state that a character who is under 18 in their original context cannot be aged up in order to portray them in adult situations. This is, of course, ignoring the fact that the Turtles have been shown as adults within the canon (and, in fact, during the Mirage comics - and you don't get much more "original context" than the Mirage comics). Art is being taken down under the by-line of "the Turtles are under 18 during some parts of the canon material, therefore any artwork showing/discussing/hinting at relationships must be removed, regardless of how old the characters are drawn or written as". For example, artwork or fanfic depicting a relationship (in non-explicit terms) between the characters during the SAINW timeline is being deleted by staff citing this rule.

Do you think dA's staff cares about specifics? As far as they're concerned, this is TEENAGE Mutant Ninja Turtles fanwork.

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

That is an incredibly stupid rule. One of the stupidest I've heard placed on something in terms of art, and even things just trying to pass as art. By that theory, we were all once under 18 in our 'original context,' should nude photographs of adults (artistic, not erotic) be removed because they were once underage?

Indigo, please. They're just trying to protect their ass because underage stuff is really dark territory and not all sites want to get heavily involved in it. They're just playing it safe. No laws are even being broken with fan work, and dA knows this, but they don't want to encourage paedophiles, you know?

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Netkeeper

Indigo, please. They're just trying to protect their ass because underage stuff is really dark territory and not all sites want to get heavily involved in it. They're just playing it safe. No laws are even being broken with fan work, and dA knows this, but they don't want to encourage paedophiles, you know?

Yeah, I know. But portrayals of characters in their adult years being subjected to that for the matter of discouraging pedos, who prob don't want adult representations anyhow, is just...wut now? o.O

Remove A to prevent C while disregarding the B factor creates a disconnect between A and C. Or I'm not understanding the real issue, this is the first I've even heard of it.

I dunno, they just better not go deleting any of my faves. Granted it's all stuff they shouldn't have issue with, but god only knows at this point. (Edit: Then again some of my WoW faves are a little risque... hope it doesn't happen there.)


More edits: Could it be that it comes down to how people are tagging/naming their stuff? Maybe they're simply including the "teenage" part of the franchise name while not even portraying that, but then ends up assumed by site staff that it's intended in the piece?

[plastroncafe]

It's just...funny, you know?
A site called Deviant Art taking stuff down for being too risque.

Also, FF.Net is a pit of rabid voles.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

That's the thing - it's totally understandable that DA don't want to encourage loli or shota style work. I understand that there are legality issues when it comes to this kind of thing, and a line has to be drawn so that the site can't be abused because of a loophole.

By the same token, it becomes a bit of a grey area when we're talking about adolescent fictional (and in some cases, non-human) characters, and it certainly seems like the TOS are kiiiinda being bent here to take out some (mm) fandoms, while leaving others (depicting suggestive ff, solo-f or mf) completely alone.

What does cause me to quirk an eyebrow is that Jane Doe can turn 18, shave off every inch of body hair and post a legs-apart nude shot on DA and call it art. As long as there's nobody else *in* the shot touching/pressing against anything, no penetration, fluids, mouths on things... by DA's rules and TOS, it's not porn. Ok, fair enough.

You can draw and post a picture of Hermione in her school uniform, skirt so short that it's practically non-existent, high-beaming through her shirt and with boobs bigger than her head. Technically, against their "original context" rules, but it's not enforced.

You can draw and post Hermione and Cho Chang in their school uniforms, pinning one another down on a bed. Once again, technically against their "original context" rules, but it's not enforced.

I don't even have to log in to get past the mature content filter or scroll past the first page to see pictures of Misty from Pokemon in her underwear - it literally comes up in their first 10 results. Also against their "original context" rules.

Do a search for Rei Ayanami or Asuka from Neon Genesis and you'll find more sexualized artwork of those 14 year old characters than you can poke a stick at (not to mention people cosplaying as them in lingerie). And (say it with me here, gang) that's - you guessed it! - against "original context" rules and yet not enforced.

In fact, none of the examples of fictional character art I've listed here are hidden behind the mature content filter.

But a drawing of Leo and Raph where their age is ambiguous and they're kissing - that gets ripped down. Seems kinda hypocritical. I mean... who are they protecting here? Their users? Underage turtle mutants? All an underage DA user has to do is create an account and fudge their DOB in order to be able to see past the mature content filters - hell, even without logging in, people of any age can see suggestive content right on the front page (and in some cases, promoted as a Daily Deviation).

So again, while I understand that they have rules in place ostensibly to deter people drawing pedo art and swapping it (which again, I shall reiterate, is something which I fully support) - the way they enforce the rules is inconsistent, unfair, impractical and - dare I say it - antediluvian.

^ So much this. ^

Also, I'll note that a writer who had some things removed has noticed suspicious activity from gibberish-named "user accounts" visiting their pages frequently, and when they go to look them up, there is no profile, not info, no submissions, and no comments made anywhere by these "users". But they visit pages for works that are being "blocked" for submission to groups this writer mods, or which haven't been getting messages coming through at all. And the number of visits suggests they are bot accounts purely for the purpose of tagging works for removal. She suspects they may even be a troll (or even mod/admin) account simply reporting anything submitted from the targeted users. So the idea that they are personally checking works is looking pretty remote. Looks more like an auto-report account from the frequency of visits. And there are at least two of them that she's found.

Originally Posted by Netkeeper

Here's another thing -- this DOES happen in other fandoms. I've seen it happen in both Sonic and Professor Layton fandoms. But the image needs to be found by staff first before they take action, and it's easier to find fic than art because you can text search for it. I have seen WAY more fic get taken down than art on that site.


Indigo, please. They're just trying to protect their ass because underage stuff is really dark territory and not all sites want to get heavily involved in it. They're just playing it safe. No laws are even being broken with fan work, and dA knows this, but they don't want to encourage paedophiles, you know?

And they're doing a bang-up job of it- by driving away everyone who likes to play with the various relationships that have been either hinted at in the franchise, or disallowing any new ones created by the fans. Because Donnie/April stories aren't permitted according to their rules. See how dumb that is? A CANON ship falls under their blanket statement, and is being unfairly blocked as an artistic venue. On the grounds that it's "underage". Never mind that Nick itself doesn't seem to have any problems depicting that same ship....

And if it's happening in any other fandoms, I haven't seen any sign yet.

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Yeah, I know. But portrayals of characters in their adult years being subjected to that for the matter of discouraging pedos, who prob don't want adult representations anyhow, is just...wut now? o.O

Remove A to prevent C while disregarding the B factor creates a disconnect between A and C. Or I'm not understanding the real issue, this is the first I've even heard of it.


More edits: Could it be that it comes down to how people are tagging/naming their stuff? Maybe they're simply including the "teenage" part of the franchise name while not even portraying that, but then ends up assumed by site staff that it's intended in the piece?

Exactly. Not allowing older depictions of a character who DOES age in the canon material for the purposes of having relationships? WTF??!! That's severely limiting both to creativity and to what versions can even be depicted! Not only that, but with the Nick show having CANON relationships WITHIN the "original context" of the characters, they are basically saying artists and writers CAN'T EVEN USE THE CANON RELATIONSHIPS in their stories! (IE- Donnie's crush on April, or Leo and Karai stories would fall under their ridiculous "rule" even though it's part of the character canon for the show itself! So do Raph and Ninjara, or Mikey and Kala, for that matter- and these were within the original contexts of their respective versions. So those relationships can't even be TOUCHED in fan stories, apparently....)

See how dumb that is?

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

It's just...funny, you know?
A site called Deviant Art taking stuff down for being too risque.

Also, FF.Net is a pit of rabid voles.

Why are you guys so down on that site? It's perfectly friendly (in my experience), easy to use, allows for some pretty diverse tastes and depictions, and AFAIK, doesn't seem to mind darker or more mature content as long as it's not graphic. Several of the writers who've been hassled on DA also post there- with the same stores- and have not had any complaints against them. It's a far more tolerant atmosphere, from what I've seen. I like the set-up, and it's got a wide range of fandoms to work with.

AO3 doesn't seem to have NEARLY the same amount of authors playing in their sandbox, at least from the small amount of browsing I've done. That may change now with what's going on, but for the moment, it just doesn't have much of interest to me.

Also- yeah, the irony of that is SOO glaring it's just sad.

[Netkeeper]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

And they're doing a bang-up job of it- by driving away everyone who likes to play with the various relationships that have been either hinted at in the franchise, or disallowing any new ones created by the fans. Because Donnie/April stories aren't permitted according to their rules. See how dumb that is? A CANON ship falls under their blanket statement, and is being unfairly blocked as an artistic venue. On the grounds that it's "underage". Never mind that Nick itself doesn't seem to have any problems depicting that same ship....

And if it's happening in any other fandoms, I haven't seen any sign yet.

It did happen in other fandoms. I just told you that it did. Every character in the Sonic fandom is underage aside from one or two rarely-shipped characters and it's been targeted on more than one occasion. I had a friend who, despite my warnings, posted her fic on dA anyway and it ended up getting removed some months later. And it wasn't just her it happened to. This was back in, oh, 2009 I want to say?

And the Layton fandom has a particularly popular ship with an underage character, I will say no more on that matter because ew. I remember a lot of it getting deleted at some point, no idea what year.

Whether the ship was canon or not didn't matter. It doesn't matter if Nick has problems depicting the ship, either, because guess what? dA is not Nick. They aren't okay with that content being on their site! So leave it, and go pick another one! No need to be ridiculously attached to a website with awful policies. I've given alternatives, now it's time for people to mass migrate instead of trying to fight a website that can't be fought.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Why are you guys so down on that site? It's perfectly friendly (in my experience), easy to use, allows for some pretty diverse tastes and depictions, and AFAIK, doesn't seem to mind darker or more mature content as long as it's not graphic. Several of the writers who've been hassled on DA also post there- with the same stores- and have not had any complaints against them. It's a far more tolerant atmosphere, from what I've seen. I like the set-up, and it's got a wide range of fandoms to work with.

AO3 doesn't seem to have NEARLY the same amount of authors playing in their sandbox, at least from the small amount of browsing I've done. That may change now with what's going on, but for the moment, it just doesn't have much of interest to me.

Because FF.net will remove formatting within stories for no reason at all, it doesn't allow NC-17 rated content [people still submit it under the M rating, but it's not allowed and will put your account at risk], and it doesn't allow readers to select text on the page. Its organisation system is ****, and AO3 does everything FF.net does way better. It doesn't have as big a selection, but people can change that by posting their work on the site.

Also, did I mention the quality of work you find on AO3 tends to be WAY BETTER on average? And generally, quality is better than quantity. FF.net is crawling with shitfic.

[Refractive Reflections]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I have absolutely no idea why people still use FF.net when AO3 is vastly superior a resource. Not only can you download versions of their stories for reading on remote devices, but they don't censor for content, and allow you to search or block for that very content.

Don't like how people are playing with their dolls? You can filter that.
Want to find people who play the same way you do? You can filter for that too.

One big reason is because FF.net gets much more web traffic than AO3, and naturally people would want their fanworks to have the greatest amount of exposure.

Another reason is if one posts material at AO3, it has an implied stigma of being known as an explicit fanfic website (even though general audience fanfics are accepted also) where the only reason people go there is to read/write explicit sexual or violent descriptions since AO3 has very minimal to no censorship. Where it brings up the question, "If that one fanfic is not as explicit as the others on AO3, why not post it on a site that gets more traffic anyways (although having more censorship but wouldn't effect the fanfic's content) rather than AO3?"

Take for example on AO3's TMNT - All Media Types webpage, in going through the first 5 pages without filtering anything, at least half of the fics are explicit or mature, or have Turtlecest, or have rape/non-consensual sex content, which could make one figure that those topics are the major proportion of submitted fanfic content to AO3's website as a whole has, despite having a filtering system to avoid it.

I'm not saying FF.net is better or anything, just those are some reasons.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

^ So much this. ^
Why are you guys so down on that site? It's perfectly friendly (in my experience), easy to use, allows for some pretty diverse tastes and depictions, and AFAIK, doesn't seem to mind darker or more mature content as long as it's not graphic. Several of the writers who've been hassled on DA also post there- with the same stores- and have not had any complaints against them. It's a far more tolerant atmosphere, from what I've seen. I like the set-up, and it's got a wide range of fandoms to work with.

AO3 doesn't seem to have NEARLY the same amount of authors playing in their sandbox, at least from the small amount of browsing I've done. That may change now with what's going on, but for the moment, it just doesn't have much of interest to me.

Also- yeah, the irony of that is SOO glaring it's just sad.

I'm down on FF.Net because I can't easily download stories from there onto my e-reader, and they went out of their way to disable an app that would do that for me. Also, with limited exception, I find the stuff posted there to be subpar, thankfully most of the authors who I would follow there also post their stuff to Tumblr, where I can easily move reading material from my browser to my kindle.

Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections

One big reason is because FF.net gets much more web traffic than AO3, and naturally people would want their fanworks to have the greatest amount of exposure.

Another reason is if one posts material at AO3, it has an implied stigma of being known as an explicit fanfic website (even though general audience fanfics are accepted also) where the only reason people go there is to read/write explicit sexual or violent descriptions since AO3 has very minimal to no censorship. Where it brings up the question, "If that one fanfic is not as explicit as the others on AO3, why not post it on a site that gets more traffic anyways (although having more censorship but wouldn't effect the fanfic's content) rather than AO3?"

Take for example on AO3's TMNT - All Media Types webpage, in going through the first 5 pages without filtering anything, at least half of the fics are explicit or mature, or have Turtlecest, or have rape/non-consensual sex content, which could make one figure that those topics are the major proportion of submitted fanfic content to AO3's website as a whole has, despite having a filtering system to avoid it.

I'm not saying FF.net is better or anything, just those are some reasons.

I would much rather support a site which does not censor and allows one to filter, than one that does censor.

I get wanting maximum exposure for one's transformative work, but...not at the price of silencing others. Don't get me wrong, everyone is entitled to a safe space online, and I'm glad that people find one in FF.Net, I just don't.

And the dealings I've had with the fandom there have left me happy to have not had a need to return.

[IndigoErth]

Grind... almost grinding my teeth...

Stupid "requesters" on that paid task/survey site I've complained about before. Must be the most incompetent one I've ever done work for! Sure, I've encountered bugs from others in the past, though most requesters are pretty good about replying to your message and compensating you. No biggie.

This one... yeah right. Last time it was like pulling teeth. They finally paid up, but it was only after multiple messages and took days. They never did reply to my messages. No letting me know they got it, no acknowledgement of feedback, so saying they'd fix it. Nope. They simply paid via the bonus system without a word.

The last thing I did for them went fine so I figured maybe the bad one was a fluke. Buuuut... just did one again that had the same problem, which has apparently existed for a long time and they clearly refuse to bother to try to fix what they're doing wrong. And when the task page does not submit then you end up having wasted your time, gave them free work because it still appeared to send it to them, and get gypped if they ignore you.

I mean, for gods sake, even the average college student using the site to post surveys for their research can usually post a task page that WORKS.

Because you know what is the most stupidly shameful thing about this one that repeatedly posts them broken? To my understanding... this requester is YouTube/Google. Seriously. How can anyone who's business is a key part of the internet be so incompetent, or put it in the hands of an employee who is.

Arg! Back to pulling teeth to try to get compensated.

[pennydreadful]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Why are you guys so down on that site? It's perfectly friendly (in my experience), easy to use, allows for some pretty diverse tastes and depictions, and AFAIK, doesn't seem to mind darker or more mature content as long as it's not graphic. Several of the writers who've been hassled on DA also post there- with the same stores- and have not had any complaints against them. It's a far more tolerant atmosphere, from what I've seen. I like the set-up, and it's got a wide range of fandoms to work with.

AO3 doesn't seem to have NEARLY the same amount of authors playing in their sandbox, at least from the small amount of browsing I've done. That may change now with what's going on, but for the moment, it just doesn't have much of interest to me.

For me, it's a combo - like I said, I find it irritating having to search through 4 different categories when I'm looking for new stories. I prefer to read fic with darker/adult content (not necessarily related to sexytimes either) - I'm one of those awful people who loves to see my fave characters tortured. There's a direct correlation between how much I love a character and how much I adore seeing them suffer.

So for me it's more frustrating going through the amount of hetfic, badfic with Mary Sue self-inserts etc on FF, stories where everyone's totally OOC etc, to find the stuff that will match my tastes.

Conversely, there's not a hell of a lot of fic on AO3 or AFF that I haven't already read - so my main source of new fic is Tumblr. FF.net is probably great for some folks, it just doesn't work well for me.

Segueing slightly into a gear-grind for the day - bad writing in romance novels grinds my gears. I'm gonna put this out there - I read a lot of romance novels (primarily non-het). I get through at least one a week. And romance, yeah, it's a fairly fluffy genre most of the time. But I do heartily wish that people didn't use that as an excuse for sub-par writing.

If there's one thing that bugs the ever-loving crap out of me, it's reading a book where the heroine spends her way crying through the whole damn thing because she's falling in lurve but just can't admit her feelings, because reasons. Or where two characters have this insane physical attraction (which, to be fair, is a fairly standard trope in shifter romance), and there's like, nothing else to the relationship. Like yeah, ok, you've just met your One True Mate, and you've got hella mad sexy pheremones going... but what else do you have in common? Do you like any of the same things? What do you like about this person other than that they're purty and make blood pool in your groin (which, when you think about it, is a weird and over-used phrase... oh, that and "their tongues battled for dominance" - makes me think of little tongues wearing armor and having a sword-fight... en garde, sir!).

Anyway, that's my gear grind for the day. Being a romance novel doesn't preclude it having interesting characters and original writing. I dearly wish that some authors would make more of an effort, instead of focusing only on the sex scenes.

[Netkeeper]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

I'm one of those awful people who loves to see my fave characters tortured. There's a direct correlation between how much I love a character and how much I adore seeing them suffer.

Seriously, we're so similar sometimes that it kinda scares me. :V

Also, reading your post makes me wish you roleplayed. You know what good writing [and romance!] is all about and it makes me long for an RP partner like that, haha.