Official Ep Discussion: S3 Ep16: "Clash of the Mutanimals"

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Originally Posted by jenna

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Raph fans (myself included) feeling disappointed by the way he is handled on the show until the plant thing happened.

I've had problems with this Raph in the past (and have said it on this board). That's why I brought up that even episodes like 'Slash & Destroy' showed that it was just Raph correcting mistakes that he/himself made from his stupidity and incompetence (same with the Casey Jones episode).

I just didn't complain As Much until Season 3. It's not just 'the plant thing'. It's Season 3 has been Extremely Lackluster by a Mile, especially for Raphael fans.

Raph in this show just seems incompetent, useless, not badass, and Not much of a Protector. Who has he protected in Season 3 so far? Who? Season 3 just made it even more noticeable to folks like myself, that's why...

Considering all that I've said, it's funny that the way Raph is 'saved' in the newest episode is pretty much Leo making fun of him. Again, by making fun of him...funny, indeed.

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by Ramboraph4life aka Matt

I've had problems with this Raph in the past (and have said it on this board). That's why I brought up that even episodes like 'Slash & Destroy' showed that it was just Raph correcting mistakes that he/himself made from his stupidity and incompetence (same with the Casey Jones episode).

I just didn't complain As Much until Season 3. It's not just 'the plant thing'. It's Season 3 has been Extremely Lackluster by a Mile, especially for Raphael fans.

Raph in this show just seems incompetent, useless, not badass, and Not much of a Protector. Who has he protected in Season 3 so far? Who? Season 3 just made it even more noticeable to folks like myself, that's why...

Considering all that I've said, it's funny that the way Raph is 'saved' in the newest episode is pretty much Leo making fun of him. Again, by making fun of him...funny, indeed.

I know that's pretty upsetting, right?
Considering Raph stayed by Leo's side the entire time when he was recovering in the tub and then tried to lift Leo's spirits, getting him back on his feet. When Raph needs him, what does Leo do? He makes fun of and insults him to free him. Yeah, that's top notch story telling right there. If that isn't proof that the writers hate Raph then I don't know what is.

[Eiko]

I found this episode quite enjoyable. I think some of u guys need to relax, and enjoy the show for what it is and stop taking it so seriously.

[DarkLightDragon]

Because people aren't allowed to express disappointment now apparently.

[JH24]

Originally Posted by GiveMeBackMyRaphXLeo

And... did leo just said "im not crazy abt slash"?

Maybe its just me but i think they made it on purpose...



Btw what does break free mean?

Yeah, I noticed that too. In season 2, Slash brutally attacked Leo and his brothers out of jealousy. They were all beaten and injured, and they could have been killed.

Leo accepts that Raph is friends with Slash but is still a bit wary of him. Although Leo's opinion about Slash probably has improved after this episode.


"Break free" literally means to escape someone's hold/to free himself or someone from something/to force someone out of something. (In this case mind control)

[GiveMeBackMyRaphXLeo]

Originally Posted by JH24

Yeah, I noticed that too. In season 2, Slash brutally attacked Leo and his brothers out of jealousy. They were all beaten and injured, and they could have been killed.

Leo accepts that Raph is friends with Slash but is still a bit wary of him. Although Leo's opinion about Slash probably has improved after this episode.


"Break free" literally means to escape someone's hold/to free himself or someone from something/to force someone out of something. (In this case mind control)

Lol no i didnt mesn that slash i mean slash slash.....

[senpai]

I didn't like it when Raphael was turned into a flower either. That was so weird.

Though I wish Raph was more badass in this series, I will say that it makes sense that he needs saving a lot. The turtles are still young and Raph is typically the first to dive straight into a battle. It actually makes sense he'd be the first to get into a bind and need someone's help because of that. So I don't see it as a fault in his character. It's just something that can later be developed. I will say, however, that Raph will need some serious development soon. After the last episode, I'd like to see Raph training much harder than usual to make up for being controlled by Shredder. This can lead him on the path of supreme badassery

[CyberCubed]

Is this the first time Slash appeared that Raphael didn't call him, "Spike" at all? I think Raph finally dropped that name and call him by his true name now

[Jephael]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Is this the first time Slash appeared that Raphael didn't call him, "Spike" at all? I think Raph finally dropped that name and call him by his true name now

Actually, I don't think Raph has referred to him as Spike at all this season. I'd have to go back and watch the 2-parter where the Mutanimals are introduced as a group.

[victory_angel]

I also agree that Raph being turned into a normal turtle again would have made more sense then a plant.

However living creatures do carry DNA that is identical to plant matter. Such as humans having half the DNA of rice. So if the episode had explained that better, having Raph being turned into a lump of plant matter would have made more sense.

[Meliwen]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

I also agree that Raph being turned into a normal turtle again would have made more sense then a plant.

However living creatures do carry DNA that is identical to plant matter. Such as humans having half the DNA of rice. So if the episode had explained that better, having Raph being turned into a lump of plant matter would have made more sense.

What bothered me more about Raph turning into a plant wasn't necessarily how weird it was, but how it was treated as a footnote. One would think that being near completely demutated would be somewhat important for any mutant, or at least more worthy of something than a lets-fix-it-offscreen sort of thing. Mutagen and mutations are normally considered important things, but here it was brushed aside.

As for this episode itself, someone mentioned elsewhere that this was a Leo episode with Raph as the plot device, which other people here have touched upon too. Raph was undoubtedly the focus of the episode, he got a lot of screen time, but it didn't seem to serve his character as much as it did Leo's.

They both learned the same lesson in the end, which was that anger and impulsiveness can be a good thing from time to time, but it seemed like that lesson was meant more for Leo. Leo was the one that had the main issue with it in the beginning, he showed that he learned from it when they went to go get Raph, and he was the one who apologized in the end to Raph, again showing what he learned. Raph basically got a confirmation for his actions in the end, and that was it. Not to mention, that while the fighting was amazing for all characters, Leo was the one who ended up saving the day.

I'm not saying no one else can learn a lesson in an episode that's not necessarily dedicated to them, but Raph really didn't gain anything from this episode, not just as something that he'll take with him in future episodes, but even as a lesson to be contained in this one episode alone. That was really my main gripe with the episode, especially considering this is Raph's first episode this season (even though he did have some good moments earlier on, in particular looking after Leo), but other than that I thought it was great.

[Karai Samurai]

Finally got around to watching this episode, and it was pretty solid. Loved the bit about Mikey realizing that their cartoons mirror their lives.

And to everyone frustrated that the Dark Raph arc didn't last longer...look at the Karai mutation arc. Hell, look at Timothy. This show doesn't do too great when it comes to multi ep narratives. I liked the one ep dark Raph. Those worms were nasty, though.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Meliwen

What bothered me more about Raph turning into a plant wasn't necessarily how weird it was, but how it was treated as a footnote. One would think that being near completely demutated would be somewhat important for any mutant, or at least more worthy of something than a lets-fix-it-offscreen sort of thing. Mutagen and mutations are normally considered important things, but here it was brushed aside.

As for this episode itself, someone mentioned elsewhere that this was a Leo episode with Raph as the plot device, which other people here have touched upon too. Raph was undoubtedly the focus of the episode, he got a lot of screen time, but it didn't seem to serve his character as much as it did Leo's.

They both learned the same lesson in the end, which was that anger and impulsiveness can be a good thing from time to time, but it seemed like that lesson was meant more for Leo. Leo was the one that had the main issue with it in the beginning, he showed that he learned from it when they went to go get Raph, and he was the one who apologized in the end to Raph, again showing what he learned. Raph basically got a confirmation for his actions in the end, and that was it. Not to mention, that while the fighting was amazing for all characters, Leo was the one who ended up saving the day.

I'm not saying no one else can learn a lesson in an episode that's not necessarily dedicated to them, but Raph really didn't gain anything from this episode, not just as something that he'll take with him in future episodes, but even as a lesson to be contained in this one episode alone. That was really my main gripe with the episode, especially considering this is Raph's first episode this season (even though he did have some good moments earlier on, in particular looking after Leo), but other than that I thought it was great.

And also that moment where Donnie comments that they don't have a plan. And Leo essentially gives a Raph-like response of "Screw the plan, that's our brother in there."

Proving that Leo and Raph aren't that much different from each other. But they still need each other to balance themselves out.

Normally Leo is the calmer of the two of them, however he has to look after three brothers as well as himself. And he wants to get through the mission with all of them intact. And that sometimes give him a hot headed temper, but normally it's Raph who is the hot head of the group.

When Raph isn't present such as during Turtle Temper and this one, Leo does seem to unconsciously slip into an impulsive and hotheaded frame of mind.

And vice vr. where Leo isn't present (parts of the North Hampton arc), Raph goes into a calmer much more collected frame of mind.

[Mona_Lisa]

Originally Posted by THGhost

These forums overhyped the whole "Dark Raph" thing way too much. I'm not familiar with that story arc, but I'm assuming that it has nothing to do with what was depicted in this episode. It was just another scheme of Shredder's to control the Turtles' minds, nothing special.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

It was indeed the forums fault, and they took it out on the episode/writers for no reason.

I'm a little less angry now, But the one big gripe I still have is why leak Dark Raph? This was such a little insignificant filler thing... Why mention it at all?

[Ashwolf]

I don't think that few min was the real deal, just a teaser when it's actually gonna happen later on but at this point, not getting my hopes up

[Chaotix12345]

Originally Posted by Mona_Lisa

I'm a little less angry now, But the one big gripe I still have is why leak Dark Raph? This was such a little insignificant filler thing... Why mention it at all?

Simple. PangolinFeets asked Brandon Auman about IDW influences and he said there'd be a story "loooooosely" based on City Fall with Dark Raph. He was asked a question and gave an answer with a little tease. He probably didn't intend it to blow the roof off this place with hype. Just wanted to give a fan with a question a little bit of exclusive info.

[JH24]

Originally Posted by GiveMeBackMyRaphXLeo

Lol no i didnt mesn that slash i mean slash slash.....

I know what you're getting at. And...no. It wasn't meant that way.

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by jenna

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Raph fans (myself included) feeling disappointed by the way he is handled on the show until the plant thing happened.

It seems to me that the Within the Woods episode was very damaging to the show. I wonder how many other minor complaints we would look past were it not for the sheer stupidity of the plant thing.

I think you're right to a point.That's where a big part of the anger towards this series started, for me anyway. After that episode, I began to take notice of how much he was being mistreated. Looking back at season 2 I could probably find other examples of him being handled poorly but yeah, the whole flower thing was pretty damaging.

[Mona_Lisa]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

You know what? I think you're right.That's where all the anger towards this series started, for me anyway. After that episode, I began to take notice of how much he was being mistreated.

Me too... That was when tings went sour for me.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Originally Posted by senpai

So I don't see it as a fault in his character. It's just something that can later be developed. I will say, however, that Raph will need some serious development soon. After the last episode, I'd like to see Raph training much harder than usual to make up for being controlled by Shredder. This can lead him on the path of supreme badassery

But they're not going to do that. I'm 100% certain on that, just like I was 100% certain about this 'Dark Raph' stuff. Just look back on my comments. I even said "it'd be half of one episode, and Leo would be the big hero at the end". And I was proven right. So yes, some of this has been me gloating about being proven right. And hey, I WISH I was proven wrong, but I wasn't.