Do you think Leo is turning into a Marty Stu?

[Papenbrook]

In the first episode of Season 3, Leo was able to defeat the Creep, even though he was still injured. Meanwhile, his brothers, April, and Casey didn't do anything to help him. Raph even got turned into a plant!


In "Clash of the Mutanimals", he was the one that snapped Raph out of the mind control, not Donnie or Mikey.

In "The Deadly Venom", he was able to use a healing technique perfectly, even though he only saw it once. In addition, he was the only one that was taught said technique. In the end of the episode, Leo was so praised continually, that it felt ridiculous.

I really think the writers are slowly turning him into a Marty Stu. Do you agree with me?

[Werecat]

Of course I agree that Leo is turning into a Marty Sue. He was perfect in the earlier seasons because he was flawed and wasn't the best fighter but still tried his hardest,that spirit was admirable. Now the writers want the world of TMNT to revolve around Leo; Leo gets special training, Leo gets to defeat the bad guy, Leo masters everything, Everyone praises Leo. Those pinpoints are generalization of the current Leo and it is sickening. This whole Marty Sue Leo needs to stop, I do not want another 2k3 Leo!

[Leofan26]

Pish, Leo's the leader he's got to become a better fighter and leader as seasons move on or else he'd be standing still as a character and he wanted to be better to protect his family. After that last attack the Shredder did on him in season two he strived to become better.

Besides you guy's would complain if he didn't get better, admit it. Just like how fans complain about how Mikey gets repeative stories and never maturing, Raph being treated like trash not becoming the Raph you guy's know and love Blah blah blah. You'd say Leo isn't keeping his words on training to protect his brothers like what's going on with One Piece there Captian Luffy.

I'm fine with how things are working with him, after the crap he went through in season one final and two with Shredders attack, come on.

[neatoman]

Isn't Leo kind of the central character of TMNT as a whole? I don't I just always felt that he was, the only exception I can think of is the FW cartoon, where they put their focus on Mikey because appearently kids liked it when he said Cowabunga. Everywhere else I mostly see Leo as the main character.

Anyway, I don't think Leo is a Mary Sue. I just think that because his defining trait outside of "the leader" is that he's a perfectionist, it makes sense that such a character would excel over his peers.

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by Leofan26

Pish, Leo's the leader he's got to become a better fighter and leader as seasons move on or else he'd be standing still as a character and he wanted to be better to protect his family. After that last attack the Shredder did on him in season two he strived to become better.

Besides you guy's would complain if he didn't get better, admit it. Just like how fans complain about how Mikey gets repeative stories and never maturing, Raph being treated like trash not becoming the Raph you guy's know and love Blah blah blah. You'd say Leo isn't keeping his words on training to protect his brothers like what's going on with One Piece there Captian Luffy.

I'm fine with how things are working with him, after the crap he went through in season one final and two with Shredders attack, come on.

That is like the worst opinion ever. You want Leo to be better because you are just as narcissistic as the Marty Stu Leo; you simply want the world to revolve around you and your powers to be unmatched. When in reality you must face you are not the best at everything, you are flawed. Leo in the early seasons had flaws and still tried his hardest. Spirit is what defines Leo, not him being ''better than everyone''.

Now Leo's flaws are being patched over and the writers are bending the TMNT world to be lesser than Leo's capabilities, that is marty Stu. You make a weak argument especially when you defy the obvious truth. Try acknowledging that Leo is a marty stu and base your solution off that. Instead you are baiting for an argument with your confrontational opinion about how ''Leo should be the best''

Originally Posted by neatoman

Isn't Leo kind of the central character of TMNT as a whole? I don't I just always felt that he was, the only exception I can think of is the FW cartoon, where they put their focus on Mikey because appearently kids liked it when he said Cowabunga. Everywhere else I mostly see Leo as the main character.

Anyway, I don't think Leo is a Mary Sue. I just think that because his defining trait outside of "the leader" is that he's a perfectionist, it makes sense that such a character would excel over his peers.

Leo is not the central character. TMNT is about four brothers. Leo excelling over his brothers with minimal effort and being praised by most is the definiton of a Marty Stu. It seems like you don't know what a Marty Stu is or is conflicted about Leo being classified as one. Leo does classify as a Marty Stu now because everyone praises him, he receives special treatment, he defeats all the bad guys alone.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Werecat

That is like the worst opinion ever. You want Leo to be better because you are just as narcissistic as the Marty Stu Leo; you simply want the world to revolve around you and your powers to be unmatched. When in reality you must face you are not the best at everything, you are flawed. Leo in the early seasons had flaws and still tried his hardest. Spirit is what defines Leo, not him being ''better than everyone''.

Now Leo's flaws are being patched over and the writers are bending the TMNT world to be lesser than Leo's capabilities, that is marty Stu. You make a weak argument especially when you defy the obvious truth. Try acknowledging that Leo is a marty stu and base your solution off that. Instead you are baiting for an argument with your confrontational opinion about how ''Leo should be the best''

Isn't overcoming one's flaws a form of character development? Granted he shouldn't become entirely flawless, but it is arguable that some character development is better than, let's say Raph learning not to be hothead two or three times just so he can forget that lesson for the next time he'll need to learn that lesson.

[Leofan26]

Originally Posted by Werecat

That is like the worst opinion ever. You want Leo to be better because you are just as narcissistic as the Marty Stu Leo; you simply want the world to revolve around you and your powers to be unmatched. When in reality you must face you are not the best at everything, you are flawed. Leo in the early seasons had flaws and still tried his hardest. Spirit is what defines Leo, not him being ''better than everyone''.

Now Leo's flaws are being patched over and the writers are bending the TMNT world to be lesser than Leo's capabilities, that is marty Stu. You make a weak argument especially when you defy the obvious truth. Try acknowledging that Leo is a marty stu and base your solution off that. Instead you are baiting for an argument with your confrontational opinion about how ''Leo should be the best''

Oh no, I'm not agreeing with what your saying on this, the horror! You call me narcissistic, look I was just responding to your question hoping not get insulted here. Excuse me for not thinking as season three Leo like the way you do.

I'm sure if your favorite character was being treated that you'd be thrilled. Want me to give you some word of advice your highness, try not insulting people who are taking there time to read your ridiculous question.

[srmff]

Originally Posted by Werecat

That is like the worst opinion ever. You want Leo to be better because you are just as narcissistic as the Marty Stu Leo; you simply want the world to revolve around you and your powers to be unmatched. When in reality you must face you are not the best at everything, you are flawed. Leo in the early seasons had flaws and still tried his hardest. Spirit is what defines Leo, not him being ''better than everyone''.

Now Leo's flaws are being patched over and the writers are bending the TMNT world to be lesser than Leo's capabilities, that is marty Stu. You make a weak argument especially when you defy the obvious truth. Try acknowledging that Leo is a marty stu and base your solution off that. Instead you are baiting for an argument with your confrontational opinion about how ''Leo should be the best''


Leo is not the central character. TMNT is about four brothers. Leo excelling over his brothers with minimal effort and being praised by most is the definiton of a Marty Stu. It seems like you don't know what a Marty Stu is or is conflicted about Leo being classified as one. Leo does classify as a Marty Stu now because everyone praises him, he receives special treatment, he defeats all the bad guys alone.

To me it makes sense that he'd be the most skilled if he trains the most. He puts in the work and it pays off. There's no need to undermine someone else's opinion and make quick judgements on a person's character.

[ImmaAxolotl]

Originally Posted by Werecat

Of course I agree that Leo is turning into a Marty Sue. He was perfect in the earlier seasons because he was flawed and wasn't the best fighter but still tried his hardest,that spirit was admirable. Now the writers want the world of TMNT to revolve around Leo; Leo gets special training, Leo gets to defeat the bad guy, Leo masters everything, Everyone praises Leo. Those pinpoints are generalization of the current Leo and it is sickening. This whole Marty Sue Leo needs to stop, I do not want another 2k3 Leo!

Originally Posted by srmff

To me it makes sense that he'd be the most skilled if he trains the most. He puts in the work and it pays off. There's no need to undermine someone else's opinion and make quick judgements on a person's character.

Precisely! No version of Leo is a Marty Stu- just the turtle who works the hardest to be a good ninja and a good leader.

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Isn't overcoming one's flaws a form of character development? Granted he shouldn't become entirely flawless, but it is arguable that some character development is better than, let's say Raph learning not to be hothead two or three times just so he can forget that lesson for the next time he'll need to learn that lesson.

No, it is patching a character to be perfect in an imperfect world, a simple marty stu. Character progression, in my eyes, is a character facing problems that forces him to expand his knowledge while the flaws are still present. The flaws make the final climax more interesting and balances the world.

Raph learning to control his temper is an old plot that shouldn't have been used because his character needs the anger and rage. Taking the rage out of the Hulk or taking the bloodlust out of werewolves just leaves a husk of a character. Patching flaws just creates problems later on 'cause it decreases a character's longevity for a later storyline.

Originally Posted by Leofan26

Oh no, I'm not agreeing with what your saying on this, the horror! You call me narcissistic, look I was just responding to your question hoping not get insulted here. Excuse me for not thinking as season three Leo like the way you do.

I'm sure if your favorite character was being treated that you'd be thrilled. Want me to give you some word of advice your highness, try not insulting people who are taking there time to read your ridiculous question.

The fact that you are responding by antagonizing me instead of trying to formulate a reasonable opinion on all of this just kinda proves my point. The best you can do instead of saying "LEO SHOULD BE BETTER" try saying why. Give me more reasons. Elaborate on your opinion. If it is truly reasonable I will eventually agree. Instead of defying the obvious truth that ''Leo is a Marty Stu" try formulating an opinion that does acknowledge it. Negligence of a obvious fact just serves to create turmoil.

Originally Posted by srmff

To me it makes sense that he'd be the most skilled if he trains the most. He puts in the work and it pays off. There's no need to undermine someone else's opinion and make quick judgements on a person's character.

The problem isn't Leo's character. The problem is how the writers handle the characters. The writers are making plots were Leo is being treated as a Marty Stu while neglecting the other turtles. A Marty Stu is someone who receives special treatment and is revered by most as superior while having no flaws.

[CyberCubed]

No, he's not. Stop nitpicking every little thing a character does in the show. Some of you have no idea what "sues" actually are.

Go back to tumblr fanfiction.

[Leofan26]

Originally Posted by Werecat

No, it is patching a character to be perfect in an imperfect world, a simple marty stu. Character progression, in my eyes, is a character facing problems that forces him to expand his knowledge while the flaws are still present. The flaws make the final climax more interesting and balances the world.

Raph learning to control his temper is an old plot that shouldn't have been used because his character needs the anger and rage. Taking the rage out of the Hulk or taking the bloodlust out of werewolves just leaves a husk of a character. Patching flaws just creates problems later on 'cause it decreases a character's longevity for a later storyline.


The fact that you are responding by antagonizing me instead of trying to formulate a reasonable opinion on all of this just kinda proves my point. The best you can do instead of saying "LEO SHOULD BE BETTER" try saying why. Give me more reasons. Elaborate on your opinion. If it is truly reasonable I will eventually agree. Instead of defying the obvious truth that ''Leo is a Marty Stu" try formulating an opinion that does acknowledge it. Negligence of a obvious fact just serves to create turmoil.

I gave my opinion and you insulted me, I never at all said Leo should better I said I'm fine with his character like that. How about just accepting people for having different opinions than yours? Than maybe I'll try to have a mature conversation with you.

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

No, he's not. Stop nitpicking every little thing a character does in the show. Some of you have no idea what "sues" actually are.

Go back to tumblr fanfiction.

So you have the best idea of what it means? Explain then.

This should be interesting, lemme grab my popcorn.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

^ What Cubed said. (Sweet Mother, did I just type that??!! )

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by Leofan26

I gave my opinion and you insulted me, I never at all said Leo should better I said I'm fine with his character like that. How about just accepting people for having different opinions than yours? Than maybe I'll try to have a mature conversation with you.

TMNT is about four brothers working as a team. TMNT Is not about Leo and friends. I have no trouble with Leo. The trouble is with the writers who treat Leo as a god instead of a warrior with flaws that still tries his best.

You may be okay with this Marty Stu Leo. But not everyone is a Leo fan. Marty/Mary Sues are also a symptom of a poorly constructed story. I like stories without Marty/Mary sues, is that such a crime?

edited: Nick TMNT, on average, is well written. Nick TMNT just fails to keep Marty/Mary Sues out of their storylines, a simple negative.

[IndigoErth]

No... They've created a stark contrast between Leo in the beginning of this series and today, which is awesome. The problem is, imo, not so much with him, but that the other three need the same. Their lack isn't fair to them, and isn't fair to Leo either that he starts to look this way to people because of it. Just catch the other three up.

Although I'd like to see him have occasional challenges/new skills to work on for a while, like that darn healing thing should have been and given more meaning and reason to learning it.

[Leofan26]

Originally Posted by Werecat

TMNT is about four brothers working as a team. TMNT Is not about Leo and friends. I have no trouble with Leo. The trouble is with the writers who treat Leo as a god instead of a warrior with flaws that still tries his best.

You may be okay with this Marty Stu Leo. But not everyone is a Leo fan. Marty/Mary Sues are also a symptom of a poorly constructed story. I like stories without Marty/Mary sues, is that such a crime?

edited: Nick TMNT, on average, is well written. Nick TMNT just fails to keep Marty/Mary Sues out of their storylines, a simple negative.

Than go cry to the writers about the things they've been doing with the characters, send death threats or whatever like all fans who don't get there way do. Don't get all hissy at people for having a different opinion in a thread you created asking some thing that people are just to responding to.

Time flies when your getting insulted for having a different opinion on things.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Reread his first post again, Werecat. NOWHERE did he say Leo should be "better THAN everyone" Just that he should "get better at protecting/leading them". Jeez, don't start taking stuff out of context, man. And I agree with him- Leo is growing and improving as a leader and fighter, and while the Deadly Venom" episode might be a little over the top, it's no reason to start declaring him a Marty Stu. You're reaching, here. In context of that episode, he SHOULD be praised and treated as the hero, because he WAS. But it's not as if he does that in every episode.

And Mighty Mutanimals showed him snapping Raph out of the mind-control BY INSULTING HIM. Think about that for a minute. Who ELSE would have even known to do that or could have gotten away with it? Mikey? Nope- Raph would've made mincemeat out of him. Donnie isn't mean-spirited enough or bold enough to do that, but Leo has the kind of rivalry and button-pushing relationship with him to make it work. No one else could have challenged him like that and gotten away with it, because they aren't as strong or as skilled as the "A Team" fighters- aka Raph and Leo. The writers established this LONG ago- you just missed it.


Edit: Thank you, Indigo! I agree. I WISH they'd do this more with Mikey, too. jI LOVED how they treated him at the end of Season two, but once again, he's regressed to his earlier self. Why they can't make him more like he was in the Dimension X episode or even in the Pizza Face one (because I'd love to see him with that hard edge a little more often) is beyond me. At LEAST give him a little more maturity like he started to have there or in the Croaking one!

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by Leofan26

Than go cry to the writers about the things they've been doing with the characters, send death threats or whatever like all fans who don't get there way do. Don't get all hissy at people for having a different opinion in a thread you created asking some thing that people are just to responding to.

Time flies when your getting insulted for having a different opinion on things.

You're the only one trying to escalate things about a simple word I said. Narcissism is a terrible mental state to be in. Most people tend to gravitate towards characters that mirror themselves. Perhaps you like this Marty Stu Leo because you have a sense of grandeur about yourself too. You seem to lash out at people that have a differing opinion. I never once lashed out at you. Stating psychological traits isn't an attack unless the named psychosis is present.

Not only that but you fail to acknowledge my challenge to actually present your opinion in a reasonable way. Elaborate on your opinion. You said you can't have a conversation with someone who lashes out. Yet here I am still calm as ever while you are trying your best to lash out at me. Perhaps you don't have a reasonable opinion on this whole "Marty Stu Leo" because you refuse to believe the obvious truths in favor of your own opinion.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Reread his first post again, Werecat. NOWHERE did he say Leo should be "better THAN everyone" Just that he should "get better at protecting/leading them". Jeez, don't start taking stuff out of context, man. And I agree with him- Leo is growing and improving as a leader and fighter, and while the Deadly Venom" episode might be a little over the top, it's no reason to start declaring him a Marty Stu. You're reaching, here. In context of that episode, he SHOULD be praised and treated as the hero, because he WAS. But it's not as if he does that in every episode.

Can you reread my post without a red haze? Is he your friend? This type of bias behavior doesn't help anyone. Omitting my context in favor of your friend is hypocritical too, especially when you criticize about out of context stuff.

The thing is he did say Leo should be better because he is the central character. Or somethin like that. Paraphrasing, ya know.

The episode does declare Leo as Marty Stu because it checks all the symptoms of a Marty Stu. Anywhere during the episode they could have easily given reasons as to why the other turtles couldn't do it. Why the others didn't receive special training. None of these ''whys'' are answered which just further establishes that Leo is a Marty Stu.

[Papenbrook]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Reread his first post again, Werecat. NOWHERE did he say Leo should be "better THAN everyone" Just that he should "get better at protecting/leading them". Jeez, don't start taking stuff out of context, man. And I agree with him- Leo is growing and improving as a leader and fighter, and while the Deadly Venom" episode might be a little over the top, it's no reason to start declaring him a Marty Stu. You're reaching, here. In context of that episode, he SHOULD be praised and treated as the hero, because he WAS. But it's not as if he does that in every episode.

And Mighty Mutanimals showed him snapping Raph out of the mind-control BY INSULTING HIM. Think about that for a minute. Who ELSE would have even known to do that or could have gotten away with it? Mikey? Nope- Raph would've made mincemeat out of him. Donnie isn't mean-spirited enough or bold enough to do that, but Leo has the kind of rivalry and button-pushing relationship with him to make it work. No one else could have challenged him like that and gotten away with it, because they aren't as strong or as skilled as the "A Team" fighters- aka Raph and Leo. The writers established this LONG ago- you just missed it.


Edit: Thank you, Indigo! I agree. I WISH they'd do this more with Mikey, too. jI LOVED how they treated him at the end of Season two, but once again, he's regressed to his earlier self. Why they can't make him more like he was in the Dimension X episode or even in the Pizza Face one (because I'd love to see him with that hard edge a little more often) is beyond me. At LEAST give him a little more maturity like he started to have there or in the Croaking one!

I have never seen anyone else praise Donnie, Mikey, and Raph like Leo in the latest episode. When they save the day, they almost always get nothing in return. No praise, no attention, no nothing!

Mikey could have replaced Leo in when the latter was insulting Raph. Remember when he got Timothy's attention when he turned into a blob? Or the multiple times he insulted Raph throughout the series? Mikey could have done something.