Do you think Raph is getting enough character/central focus?

[JTH]

Originally Posted by Purple Kraken

That wasn't funny. They're trying to have a serious discussion.

Then I'll make it serious.

Raph still gets plenty of focus. People on here just don't like what they're focusing on.

There is a difference. And I defy somebody to tell me there's not.

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

If this was his favorite character getting thrashed, then he wouldn't like it either.

...Try me.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Ninturtle

Geez guys lighten up and learn to take a joke. Just because you don't like the way the character's being treated and the conversation has been serious doesn't mean people can't make jokes about this subject.

Just a strange joke, I did react on instinct so I apologize. (why do I keep doing that here?) It does feel a bit funny, just a little cruel though.

As for focus, it's not I don't hate the writers, it's just the constant flip-flop that's frustrating JTH. One minute Raph can be mellow and the straight man/sarcastic protagonist, but other times he's out of character for the sake of an episode. Case in point, Clash of the Mutanimals. It's the same problem with Michelangelo too, one minute he's serious and a bada** while still goofy, and other times just plain goofy overall. That's my main gripe and probably others, the lack of structure and balance is it.

Just wanted to speak about it. If you think someone has good development like others, more power to you. It's the internet, we're bound to disagree with the floating element of many differing opinions.

Dude, I can handle the Raph joke better, no worries, I ain't one of the raging guys who wants him 24/7 in the limelight. I still bet though if a favorite character was handled poorly and then thrashed about it, you wouldn't like it.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Originally Posted by JTH

Then I'll make it serious.

Raph still gets plenty of focus. People on here just don't like what they're focusing on.

There is a difference. And I defy somebody to tell me there's not.

'Plenty of Focus'? I'm sorry, I disagree with that. And to be blunt, I think that's a bunch of Bull.

Just to type One Example of this...

The whole season there's been 1 episode that was SOMEWHAT centered on Raph (him mind-controlled)...and even then is was more about Leonardo saving the day.

The other three Turtles, as well as Casey & April, have had more focus than Raph. Think about it.

Plot-wise? Yes, the others have had more focus on both the on-going stories as well as individual episodes.

Importance-wise? No one can deny that Raph has become the least important character amongst the 'main cast'. Leo is the savior, Donnie with the retro mutagen, Mikey helping rid the Kraang because of his experience in Dimension X...Raph? Nothing.

Companion wise? The other three Turtles have/will have potential love interests, or love triangles like the Don/Casey/April thing, and just look at the past season? Don hanging out with Casey. Or Mikey trying to make friends with folks like Mondo Gecko (while hanging out with Casey) or the Punk Frogs.

Heroic-Wise? What has Raph done this entire season that makes him at all heroic? Even Mikey (who some have picked on as a character) has done stuff like save Raph against the Punk Frogs, etc. Or Leo gathering the strength to come back from a coma to help lead his brothers again.

So to people who say that he's had 'plenty of focus' this season...I'll never understand that.

[JTH]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

Dude, I can handle the Raph joke better, no worries, I ain't one of the raging guys who wants him 24/7 in the limelight. I still bet though if a favorite character was handled poorly and then thrashed about it, you wouldn't like it.

Raph is my favorite character. That's why I responded to your quote like I did. It's the 24/7 naggers you mentioned that I can't stand. The people who turn the "Raph isn't getting enough focus" into someone else's favorite turtle is getting too much focus. IE: Donnie's focus. Which makes me nearly every week come to the Donnie fans' aid and defend them, which makes me come off like I'm some turncoat, Donatello fans who just saw their favorite character "die" in the comics, all that happening after their character is treated like a field hand by most fans on here and I don't see any of those Donatello cussing up a storm on here. Yet I come on here, and it's the same old song and dance. Anybody that has a differing opinion about Raph's focus, get treated like they're field hands too, treated like they're idiots and they don't know what they're talking about.

As for the "flip-flop" writing. We can all agree that Raph has characteristic traits like unstable, and unpredictable. Those are traits he's had from day 1 in '84. People can chalk it up to "bad writing", but how would you expect to write a character like that on a episodic TV show? Granted, is the writing perfect, no. But, how do you put a central flow on a character that is supposed to be unpredictable? It's the same thing with Mikey, it's a very fine line, and it's nearly impossible to balance on that line.

And I stick to what I said before, Raphael get plenty of focus, whether all the other Raph fans on here like what they're focusing on or not, that's their problem. But I get tired of the "Focus on something I don't like = No focus", because that's bologna. I know what these writers go through, I've done plenty a share of writing in the last 6 years of my life. It's not easy writing characters like this. Finding a way to stabilize an unstable character...next to impossible.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by JTH

Raph is my favorite character. That's why I responded to your quote like I did. It's the 24/7 naggers you mentioned that I can't stand. The people who turn the "Raph isn't getting enough focus" into someone else's favorite turtle is getting too much focus. IE: Donnie's focus. Which makes me nearly every week come to the Donnie fans' aid and defend them, which makes me come off like I'm some turncoat, Donatello fans who just saw their favorite character "die" in the comics, all that happening after their character is treated like a field hand by most fans on here and I don't see any of those Donatello cussing up a storm on here. Yet I come on here, and it's the same old song and dance. Anybody that has a differing opinion about Raph's focus, get treated like they're field hands too, treated like they're idiots and they don't know what they're talking about.

As for the "flip-flop" writing. We can all agree that Raph has characteristic traits like unstable, and unpredictable. Those are traits he's had from day 1 in '84. People can chalk it up to "bad writing", but how would you expect to write a character like that on a episodic TV show? Granted, is the writing perfect, no. But, how do you put a central flow on a character that is supposed to be unpredictable? It's the same thing with Mikey, it's a very fine line, and it's nearly impossible to balance on that line.

And I stick to what I said before, Raphael get plenty of focus, whether all the other Raph fans on here like what they're focusing on or not, that's their problem. But I get tired of the "Focus on something I don't like = No focus", because that's bologna. I know what these writers go through, I've done plenty a share of writing in the last 6 years of my life. It's not easy writing characters like this. Finding a way to stabilize an unstable character...next to impossible.

I honestly love Donnie getting the limelight, very underappreciated. I get why the fanbase argues on that basis, it's unfair to fans of particular characters constantly screwed. It could be Donnie, Karai, anyone it relates to overall.

I want to respectfully disagree though, take a super hero show like either the DC animated universe or Spectacular Spider-Man. Both shows balance certain character traits and have them develop, especially the latter. With the Mirage comics, I believe Raphael and Michelangelo do mature based on Volume 4. It just feels contrived for them to flip-flop even if unpredictable. I at least would like to see why they act like it, it's never explored.

Raph does get his moments and when they occur, they really work. Same for Mikey in that regard, such as the Invasion and Slash and Destroy as notable examples for them respectively.

If you check out my post from the beginning here, it shows Raph limited and my overall feelings: http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/sho...91&postcount=6

Granted it was before the Clash of the Mutanimals, so it's a little outdated but not by much. I just believe there should be a trigger for these. It's like this: "For every action, there is but an equal reaction force." (Newton)

I respect your view though man.

[LS Animation]

He's definitely the least important turtle story-wise and it's natural his fans are not okay with it. While I'm a fan of Leo and Mikey, I think we've got way too many Leo is the leader and Leo saves the day episodes, I've been re-watching a lot of the episodes from season 1 and 2 recently and I did feel Deja Vu a lot when it comes to Leo and his leadership episodes. I felt like once they told the story the writers would come back and do the story again just for the sake of reminding everyone he's the leader and deserves to be one :/

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Originally Posted by JTH

Finding a way to stabilize an unstable character...next to impossible.

First, just to speak for myself as a Raph fan, I don't ever remember cussing at anybody, or treating anybody else like crap... I give my opinion, and people then come at me with personal attacks, or rude remarks, and so on & so forth. So if I ever did that, it was to defend myself. So there ya go on that.

As for the statement above? There are tons of comic books who star 'unstable characters'...The Punisher. Wolverine. Batman. Spawn. That's just a handful. Let alone countless movies and such. But they seem to do just fine.

[jenna]

I disagree that Nick is showing Raphael’s personality in an inconsistent way.

If we take anger out of the equation, Raphael’s character is pretty consistent across all TMNT incarnations:

He is protective of his family; he loves his family; he is soft-hearted; he is fearful; he wants to be seen as indestructible, but of course isn’t; he is tough; he is creative; he is cynical; he externalises all threats (both emotional and physical - so feels responsible for combatting external threats such as crime and also attributes his own internal threats to external factors, such as blaming his bad feelings on, say, Mikey being annoying (2k3) or Leo abandoning him (2007)). To be fair to the writers, Nick Raph displays all of these traits.

In fact, they have given him depth to many of these factors. For example, whereas in other TMNT iterations it is usually Donnie who naturally assumes the position of Leo’s second-in-command, in the Northampton episodes when Leo was incapacitated, it was Raphael who stepped up to the plate (when he wasn’t being turned into a flower, that is). He didn’t lead, but he assumed a position of responsibility (eg. he cleaned up the mess after Big Foot befouled the bathroom).

Where Raphael’s personality varies from iteration to iteration and within Nick, from episode to episode, is in the impact that his anger has on all of these traits.

Whereas other versions have laden him with a deep, burning, chronic anger that weighs very heavily on him (such as 1990 or 2007), Nick has given him a more acute, temper-tantrum style of anger - giving him interchangeable moods. Then add into the mix that he is in effect an adolescent, which amplifies this. I don’t think this is inconsistent, just that in some episodes like Slash and Destroy and Clash of the Mutanimals, we’ve caught him on a bad day.

Yes, I'd like to see more development for Raphael and learn more about why he is so angry, but I can't fault the way he is written. He is young, brave, unworldly, determined, vulnerable - just as she should be.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by Ramboraph4life aka Matt

'Plenty of Focus'? I'm sorry, I disagree with that. And to be blunt, I think that's a bunch of Bull.

Just to type One Example of this...

The whole season there's been 1 episode that was SOMEWHAT centered on Raph (him mind-controlled)...and even then is was more about Leonardo saving the day.

The other three Turtles, as well as Casey & April, have had more focus than Raph. Think about it.

Plot-wise? Yes, the others have had more focus on both the on-going stories as well as individual episodes.

Importance-wise? No one can deny that Raph has become the least important character amongst the 'main cast'. Leo is the savior, Donnie with the retro mutagen, Mikey helping rid the Kraang because of his experience in Dimension X...Raph? Nothing.

Companion wise? The other three Turtles have/will have potential love interests, or love triangles like the Don/Casey/April thing, and just look at the past season? Don hanging out with Casey. Or Mikey trying to make friends with folks like Mondo Gecko (while hanging out with Casey) or the Punk Frogs.

Heroic-Wise? What has Raph done this entire season that makes him at all heroic? Even Mikey (who some have picked on as a character) has done stuff like save Raph against the Punk Frogs, etc. Or Leo gathering the strength to come back from a coma to help lead his brothers again.

So to people who say that he's had 'plenty of focus' this season...I'll never understand that.

You know, I find the fact that Ciro has somewhere said that he has been disappointed with everything TMNT outside the Mirage comic and the first film and yet he seems to not realize or look over the complaints fans have with this series; Donnie's mannerisms towards April (even though I've noticed it hasn't been emphasized as of late), Mikey's random stupidity, too many mutants, etc. By now, he must have realized that Raph hasn't much going for him in this series especially since he likes the first film. Raph got a majority of focus in the film and had the biggest character development out of any turtle. With how much this show borrows from other versions, you'd think he would adapt from it and do his own take of the matter. Nothing against Ciro but I question the guy's handling of the series so far. From my perspective, he seems to act like his version of turtles is considered the best. It's one of the most enjoyable but there are still some plot lines and inconsistencies he needs to fix.

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by Ramboraph4life aka Matt

'Plenty of Focus'? I'm sorry, I disagree with that. And to be blunt, I think that's a bunch of Bull.

Just to type One Example of this...

The whole season there's been 1 episode that was SOMEWHAT centered on Raph (him mind-controlled)...and even then is was more about Leonardo saving the day.

The other three Turtles, as well as Casey & April, have had more focus than Raph. Think about it.

Plot-wise? Yes, the others have had more focus on both the on-going stories as well as individual episodes.

Importance-wise? No one can deny that Raph has become the least important character amongst the 'main cast'. Leo is the savior, Donnie with the retro mutagen, Mikey helping rid the Kraang because of his experience in Dimension X...Raph? Nothing.

Companion wise? The other three Turtles have/will have potential love interests, or love triangles like the Don/Casey/April thing, and just look at the past season? Don hanging out with Casey. Or Mikey trying to make friends with folks like Mondo Gecko (while hanging out with Casey) or the Punk Frogs.

Heroic-Wise? What has Raph done this entire season that makes him at all heroic? Even Mikey (who some have picked on as a character) has done stuff like save Raph against the Punk Frogs, etc. Or Leo gathering the strength to come back from a coma to help lead his brothers again.

So to people who say that he's had 'plenty of focus' this season...I'll never understand that.

Amen to this. This guy gets it.

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

You know, I find the fact that Ciro has somewhere said that he has been disappointed with everything TMNT outside the Mirage comic and the first film and yet he seems to not realize or look over the complaints fans have with this series; Donnie's mannerisms towards April (even though I've noticed it hasn't been emphasized as of late), Mikey's random stupidity, too many mutants, etc. By now, he must have realized that Raph hasn't much going for him in this series especially since he likes the first film. Raph got a majority of focus in the film and had the biggest character development out of any turtle. With how much this show borrows from other versions, you'd think he would adapt from it and do his own take of the matter. Nothing against Ciro but I question the guy's handling of the series so far. From my perspective, he seems to act like his version of turtles is considered the best. It's one of the most enjoyable but there are still some plot lines and inconsistencies he needs to fix.

Well, I wouldn't say it's all Ciro. Brandon Auman became a big part of the show stepping in as executive producer when season 3 came around. It started to unravel about that time so yeah, I have a good idea where the problem lies.

[GoldMutant]

I nearly wonder why the writers think a Raph episode has to be: "Oh, how about we transform him, that'll make the audience laugh!"

I honestly don't get it outside the different writers. Now, I get every show has a multiple set of writers, but it's pushing the boundaries. Again, I'll take the same example I took for writing characters: Spectacular Spider-Man. Remember, even with being two seasons, it took the time to develop the plot points and characters while also being it's own show with source material references.

I'm not expecting a show like that or any DC animated universe show with Greg Weisman or Paul Dini, but at the very least try. They've shown they can handle Raphael, Michelangelo, and even Karai back when we had season 1 as well as season 2 too.

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

I nearly wonder why the writers think a Raph episode has to be: "Oh, how about we transform him, that'll make the audience laugh!"

I honestly don't get it outside the different writers. Now, I get every show has a multiple set of writers, but it's pushing the boundaries. Again, I'll take the same example I took for writing characters: Spectacular Spider-Man. Remember, even with being two seasons, it took the time to develop the plot points and characters while also being it's own show with source material references.

I'm not expecting a show like that or any DC animated universe show with Greg Weisman or Paul Dini, but at the very least try. They've shown they can handle Raphael, Michelangelo, and even Karai back when we had season 1 as well as season 2 too.

Yes, having him transform into something or having him get captured seems to be the thing they turn to but it's gotten irritating and old.

The executive producers apparently let the writers do whatever they want with very little rules or guidelines to follow so the problem falls squarely on them. It also doesn't help that they continue to cater to their own favorites and completely disregard any kind of balance for the show.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

The executive producers apparently let the writers do whatever they want with very little rules to follow so the problem falls squarely on them.

True, there should be a boundary for ideas. I can't believe I would dare compare this, but let's take Spongebob as another example. Some of the worst episodes (One Course Meal, Demolition Doofus, Pet Sitter Pat, etc.) I can't believe the producers would allow these ideas past the drawing board. I bet there are solid ideas Sabacooza that want to be used, but placed on the back burner for a long period of time.

Until then, the only thing we can do outside express our freedom of speech is rewriting parts of the show to make it more of an ensemble cast (everyone's equal).

I do have one idea with something I want to do for a TMNT show: Make Raph feel angry about racism towards mutants. It's complicated, but it could give him one big reason for his anger.

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

True, there should be a boundary for ideas. I can't believe I would dare compare this, but let's take Spongebob as another example. Some of the worst episodes (One Course Meal, Demolition Doofus, Pet Sitter Pat, etc.) I can't believe the producers would allow these ideas past the drawing board. I bet there are solid ideas Sabacooza that want to be used, but placed on the back burner for a long period of time.

Yes, someone needs to keep things in check and I feel we had that but something got lost along the way.

Until then, the only thing we can do outside express our freedom of speech is rewriting parts of the show to make it more of an ensemble cast (everyone's equal).

I do have one idea with something I want to do for a TMNT show: Make Raph feel angry about racism towards mutants. It's complicated, but it could give him one big reason for his anger.

That could be interesting.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

Yes, someone needs to keep things in check and I feel we had that but something got lost along the way.

That could be interesting.

It does stink, but unless you boycott the show, it'll continue. That's the enraging thing.

I personally feel that even here, Raphael can be explored more as well as the others outside their childhood. (ex: Donnie's intelligence, Leo's personality, and Mikey's goofball nature) There's honestly so much anyone can do to make them awesome.

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

It does stink, but unless you boycott the show, it'll continue. That's the enraging thing.

I personally feel that even here, Raphael can be explored more as well as the others outside their childhood. (ex: Donnie's intelligence, Leo's personality, and Mikey's goofball nature) There's honestly so much anyone can do to make them awesome.

I totally agree.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

I totally agree.

It'll take time, but I believe these ideas can get off their feet. I don't entirely believe it'll be done quickly, but I'd be impressed if the idea with the two other people works.

Assuming we get a Turtle Tots/Tales of X story, we can hopefully learn more about their backstory. I'd honestly be interested if either Mikey or Raph gets the Tales story.

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

It'll take time, but I believe these ideas can get off their feet. I don't entirely believe it'll be done quickly, but I'd be impressed if the idea with the two other people works.

Assuming we get a Turtle Tots/Tales of X story, we can hopefully learn more about their backstory. I'd honestly be interested if either Mikey or Raph gets the Tales story.

Well, you might have to inform me if things improve. I'm seriously thinking about calling it quits after season 3.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

Well, you might have to inform me if things improve. I'm seriously thinking about calling it quits after season 3.

With the way things are going down lately, I'll still be watching it only because there's really nothing left on for me to watch that's "new".

I will keep my eyes peeled on any new episodes of importance (PM me what you like for episode genres Sabacooza). Otherwise, feel free to chat with me of any ideas you have for Raph himself.

[goodbadgeeky]

Personally, I feel that Raph lately has gotten the biggest shaft but ALL the TMNT are mostly not getting great arcs, besides Leonardo who once they returned to New York, really just faded to the way-side.

The Nick-Version of TMNT suffers, IMHO, of way too much tonal shifts. A part of me wishes they would simply address those tonal shifts and odd character changes and moments that occur because the plot dictates it (not because the character does) as "they are teenagers" which is a cop-out, one I would feel better about swallowing, but they never do address it. Also, the 20-50 seconds of time they spend with the fake cartoon shows could be used better elsewhere. I dug it at first, very meta, but I rather get more time with Leo, Don, Mikey and my favorite: Raph.

Besides getting taken over for an episode, I can't honestly tell you off the top of my head when the heck Raphael had an arc this season. Like, Leonardo had more of an arc in the Mutanimals storyline, not Raph, who apparently forgave Slash? He didn't, but he did? The writers can do better than that!