Turtles Forever: a direct insult to the old 1987 cartoon?

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

6) Finally, and I get that this is meta, but what was Ch'rel's plan supposed to be? Since the only way for him to understand that one universe inspires another is by knowing it's all fiction, and he hoped to erase it all by killing the Turtles, what was stopping Eastman and Laird from just stopping him from doing it? Was he aware of them? Could he come out and kill them? Were they aware that someone was alive in their graphic novel and it was trying to rewrite itself?

Again, I know this is meta and you might argue I shouldn't be thinking about it, but I retort that the writers of the movie shouldn't have gone there for that very reason. Their whole cosmology is just dumb, and in my opinion, they didn't achieve Rule of Funny or Rule of Cool nearly enough to make that forgivable; in practice they just came off as annoying and cocky.
Edit: Now to clarify, my old post about everything wrong with the movie:

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! I thought I was the only one who saw that and was bothered by it

Plus I'll also add that trying to be meta can easily go off into Twilight Zone territory if you aren't careful. It can become creepy (as it did for me) because it ended up implying that what the all Turtles thought was 'reality' really was only a cartoon, and their whole lives were a fabrication from some writer's imagination.

It is hard to convey exactly what I feel, but I would say honestly that this subplot should not have been added. Later I can give an idea of what I think is good meta, but I definitely know that how they did this here simply came off as too wrong.

[Jester]

I am begining to wonder if the "lack" of 4kids references is due to most of it's run being "Mirage Lite."

[ironman29758]

Originally Posted by turtle1237

I though the Nick cartoon treated the old show with respect in that short time frame.

I have a hard time with Turtles forever, because from the old turtles crying with danger came to giving each other noggies ever 15 mins was really not what the 80's turtles were all about. The turtles from the 80's stood there ground and never back away unless force to reteat. And they never cry during the mist of battle. That was what got me upset the most. Sorry guys, even though it was short, Nick did it ten times better than Forever did. Forever was a insult to the old turtles by making them seem like cowards, which they were not. If they can stand there ground vs killer pizzas, than they can take on anything with out acting like cowards.

sorry it took so long, I agree with this post. I got the DVDS later, my first introduction to the Fred Wolf era Turtles(I thought it was really telling when the Turtles and Splinter was criticizing Mikey for being rash, saying to be more like Raphael which had me looking in shock) and I thought it was messed up that the Turtles were crying in fear of battle, yeah it's one thing to have the 2k3 Turtles make comments on the 1987 Turtles and then the Mirage Turtles doing the same to both of those Turtles and their crazy antics as a way to contrast those personality but having them cry took it to a level to far imo.

But that's not to say 2k3 didn't introduce some good ideas that didn't have a lasting impact on the Turtles universe in whole. Honestly if I had to say if anything has a less lasting impact is the Turtles movie 2-4. I can't say Next Mutation(because people see to remember Venus and still talk about the Power Rangers/Turtles team up despite none of the other villains being used in other Turtles mythos).

[pannoni1]

It was plain and simple that 4kids wanted to show that "we're the definitive version of the Turtles" by not just insulting the OT, but also the Mirage Shredder, ending up defeated in far, far greater time than what was portrayed. But 4kids felt that they needed to be clever enough to win over the casual audience who enjoyed the OT by having good shout-outs provided, and all things considered didn't do a bad job. The animation wasn't any worse than what the OT was, most of the key charachters/locations are featured, and of course we get to hear Cowabunga, eat pizza, and most importantly have the Technodrome. Don't blame the less than great voice acting since that wasn't possible through the contracts at the time; just feel that the writers wanted to have a clear winner that wants to serve as the grand finale to the 4kidsverse, and it did its job well. 4kids as a company was very unlike Fred Wolf/Group W in terms of production styles; Nickelodeon has better relations with them, and much more than just Rob Paulsen. The bottom line is that the OT had lots of satrical elements; 4kids followed suit by giving the satire of the OT.

But there is a difference between "homage", "parody", and a "satire/roast" however. Homage provides a nice, accurate recreation that connects well with the main canon, even if just a brief clip (Nick). Parody however implies the "in-name only" that seems to only stem from the popular mind and retools it into something that's quite diminiuitive to the classic. I'm sure you know what a satire is. I just enjoy Turtles Forever for what it is, the "series finale" of the 4kids series that provides an animated homage to Mirage even if that Shredder battle is just a mock parody with some satrical elements used when the 4kids/OTverses crossover.

[Lisardo]

^ Well put. I understand what they were doing in Turtles Forever and I accept it for what it is. However I still wish they had shown the OT Turtles to be more like what they were actually like, and not so over the top goofy. But I get what you're saying, it was the 2k3's show, not the OT's, so they were the definitive version there. However one plus was that even though the original voice actors weren't present for the OT turtles, at least the substitute VA voiced Leonardo very similar to Cam Clarke's Leonardo in the first two seasons, in that he had that lower register (that I wished he had kept throughout the series).

[TurtleManiac]

I thought the same thing when I first watched "Turtles Forever", it really did seem like they were just trying to make fun of the OT turtles. But being that it was directed by the 2K3 show crew, I guess it was expected that they would wanna make the 2K3 turtles look better than whatever they're comparing themselves to. The drawings of the OT characters were very accurate though, it was a trip to see some memorable scenes from the OT like when they're underground and get to the Technodrome and all those Foot Soldiers come running out, and also seeing Bebop and Rocksteady fighting alongside the Foot Soldiers was something that was rarely seen in the OT so I thought that was interesting. But overall the character development in this film was horrible, they made all 4 OT turtles all have the personality of Michaelangelo or even wackier and couldnt take anything seriously. The noogies and the crying scene were out of line. Oh well, doesn't really matter because it wasn't the real OT turtles in this film. The real OT is still intact and that's what counts.

[turtlefanforever]

Originally Posted by TurtleManiac

I thought the same thing when I first watched "Turtles Forever", it really did seem like they were just trying to make fun of the OT turtles. But being that it was directed by the 2K3 show crew, I guess it was expected that they would wanna make the 2K3 turtles look better than whatever they're comparing themselves to. The drawings of the OT characters were very accurate though, it was a trip to see some memorable scenes from the OT like when they're underground and get to the Technodrome and all those Foot Soldiers come running out, and also seeing Bebop and Rocksteady fighting alongside the Foot Soldiers was something that was rarely seen in the OT so I thought that was interesting. But overall the character development in this film was horrible, they made all 4 OT turtles all have the personality of Michaelangelo or even wackier and couldnt take anything seriously. The noogies and the crying scene were out of line. Oh well, doesn't really matter because it wasn't the real OT turtles in this film. The real OT is still intact and that's what counts.

There were very serious Villains in OT but they used all the stupid ones when they saved april

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by turtlefanforever

There were very serious Villains in OT but they used all the stupid ones when they saved april

Why would they use the others? Shredder and Krang were the only major villains of the series.

There was no reason to throw Rat King, Baxter, and Leatherhead in that one small scene out of nowhere.

[1987]

the only reason the ot turtles were portrayed they way they were in this film, was out of anger/jealousy. 2k3 in their prime thought they were smooth sailing, hoping to outlast the ot in how long it stays on the air. but nope, that didn't happen. 2k3 show sunk like the titanic. mirage didnt care enough to keep them around cause they werent as successful as the ot, so here comes the big nickelodeon sale. the 2k3 turtles figured "hey, if we're going out, we're bringing the ot turtles down with us!". there really was no reason to resurrect the ot turtles, they could have just took their defeat with good sportsmanship and had their own series final only based on their universe. but no, they had to be di*ks and humiliate the ot turtles, krang, shredder, and everything about the ot. i think their whole goal was they wanted to be rembered as the guys who out performed the ot turtles, but they completely flushed their own legacy down the toilet. look at them now, oh wait, they not around anymore hahaha!!!now who's laughing? all the retro merchandise nick puts out these days is ot stuff, nobody cares about the 2k3 turtles. they dug their own grave by portraying out beloved ot turtles as complete idiots. they wanted to be the cooler more remembered universe of tmnt after the nick takeover, but they failed by insulting the flagship tmnt cartoon, and now they pay the price.

[sdp]

I don't understand how anyone can justify how badly the OT turtles were treated in Turtles Forever.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by 1987

the only reason the ot turtles were portrayed they way they were in this film, was out of anger/jealousy. 2k3 in their prime thought they were smooth sailing, hoping to outlast the ot in how long it stays on the air. but nope, that didn't happen. 2k3 show sunk like the titanic. mirage didnt care enough to keep them around cause they werent as successful as the ot, so here comes the big nickelodeon sale. the 2k3 turtles figured "hey, if we're going out, we're bringing the ot turtles down with us!". there really was no reason to resurrect the ot turtles, they could have just took their defeat with good sportsmanship and had their own series final only based on their universe. but no, they had to be di*ks and humiliate the ot turtles, krang, shredder, and everything about the ot. i think their whole goal was they wanted to be rembered as the guys who out performed the ot turtles, but they completely flushed their own legacy down the toilet. look at them now, oh wait, they not around anymore hahaha!!!now who's laughing? all the retro merchandise nick puts out these days is ot stuff, nobody cares about the 2k3 turtles. they dug their own grave by portraying out beloved ot turtles as complete idiots. they wanted to be the cooler more remembered universe of tmnt after the nick takeover, but they failed by insulting the flagship tmnt cartoon, and now they pay the price.

It's amazing how wrong one man can really be.

[Autbot_Benz]

Originally Posted by 1987

the only reason the ot turtles were portrayed they way they were in this film, was out of anger/jealousy. 2k3 in their prime thought they were smooth sailing, hoping to outlast the ot in how long it stays on the air. but nope, that didn't happen. 2k3 show sunk like the titanic. mirage didnt care enough to keep them around cause they werent as successful as the ot, so here comes the big nickelodeon sale. the 2k3 turtles figured "hey, if we're going out, we're bringing the ot turtles down with us!". there really was no reason to resurrect the ot turtles, they could have just took their defeat with good sportsmanship and had their own series final only based on their universe. but no, they had to be di*ks and humiliate the ot turtles, krang, shredder, and everything about the ot. i think their whole goal was they wanted to be rembered as the guys who out performed the ot turtles, but they completely flushed their own legacy down the toilet. look at them now, oh wait, they not around anymore hahaha!!!now who's laughing? all the retro merchandise nick puts out these days is ot stuff, nobody cares about the 2k3 turtles. they dug their own grave by portraying out beloved ot turtles as complete idiots. they wanted to be the cooler more remembered universe of tmnt after the nick takeover, but they failed by insulting the flagship tmnt cartoon, and now they pay the price.

[IndigoErth]

I'll be honest, I don't personally think it portrayed the 1987 OR 2003 Turtles all that great.

It definitely made '87 out to be kind of infantile, rather than just silly, BUT it also made 2003 look rather cocky imo. I saw Turtles Forever before ever finally seeing the 2003 series (last summer) and it had me fully expecting them to have jerky personalities; I really wasn't sure if I was going to like it. And then in the show they weren't jerks at all and I liked it quite a bit...

[DarkFell]

I wasn't crazy about the Turtles Forever movie, but I wanna ask.. why were both the cut and the uncut versions of the movie pulled from Youtube? I skimmed through this thread but I didn't really find much of an answer.

[Jester]

Unless they were up by Nick/Viacom then it's probably copyright.

[Bry]

And heeere we go again!

Originally Posted by 1987

the only reason the ot turtles were portrayed they way they were in this film, was out of anger/jealousy.

And you're basing this on... what, exactly? Seriously. Any evidence? Any inside info? Anything at all?

Originally Posted by 1987

2k3 in their prime thought they were smooth sailing, hoping to outlast the ot in how long it stays on the air.

I can promise you that nobody assumed that was going to happen. I seem to recall someone making a "think this will outlast the '87 show?" question to Peter Laird's blog (or whatever he had in place 10+ years ago) and being told, effectively, that it wasn't likely. The whole Turtlemania phenomenon was a big freaking deal, and everyone involved in the 4Kids show had enough experience with this sort of thing to realize that sort of lightning wasn't likely to strike twice.

Originally Posted by 1987

but nope, that didn't happen. 2k3 show sunk like the titanic.

It lasted seven seasons and 156 episodes - that's a very long run for a kids' action show in this day and age. It wasn't the phenomenon that the '87 cartoon (and its related merchandising) was, but it was still plenty successful in its own right.

Originally Posted by 1987

mirage didnt care enough to keep them around cause they werent as successful as the ot, so here comes the big nickelodeon sale.

Total horsecrap. Mirage didn't care? They had direct involvement in the development and production of the show and even contributed to it financially as a partner instead of handing the reigns over to the production and toy companies entirely. If anything, Mirage cared a lot more about the 4Kids show than they did the Fred Wolf cartoon.

And yeah - after the show ran its course and quality dropped off after seven seasons, Peter had his fill of living and breathing Turtles and decided to retire. He's spoken about this plenty of times. You're making a connection that isn't there.

Originally Posted by 1987

the 2k3 turtles figured "hey, if we're going out, we're bringing the ot turtles down with us!".

You're basing this on nothing but your own half-baked conspiracy theories. Besides, how the hell could they "bring down" a show that ended 13 years earlier?

Originally Posted by 1987

there really was no reason to resurrect the ot turtles, they could have just took their defeat with good sportsmanship and had their own series final only based on their universe.

They "resurrected" the '87 characters for the same reason they included the Mirage originals and included nods to most of the other iterations in the multiverse sequence - the movie was intended to be a huge finale for that entire era of the franchise. It was a 25th anniversary special - why wouldn't they bring in the most relevant, and diverse, versions of those characters for an event like that?

And again - what "defeat"? The 4Kids series had a very respectable run.

Originally Posted by 1987

but no, they had to be di*ks and humiliate the ot turtles, krang, shredder, and everything about the ot. i think their whole goal was they wanted to be rembered as the guys who out performed the ot turtles, but they completely flushed their own legacy down the toilet.

Totally delusional, defensive fanboy nonsense. Look, I get that you're very protective and nostalgic about the '87 show, and that's fine, but all of this exists purely in your head.

Originally Posted by 1987

look at them now, oh wait, they not around anymore hahaha!!!now who's laughing? all the retro merchandise nick puts out these days is ot stuff, nobody cares about the 2k3 turtles.

Well... Nick has re-aired the first two seasons of the 4Kids show, and released them on iTunes, and has put out a couple of compilation DVDs. So... yeah, they kind of are still around, actually.

Originally Posted by 1987

they dug their own grave by portraying out beloved ot turtles as complete idiots.

So... they dug their own grave by how they portrayed the '87 Turtles... in a movie that was always intended to be the big finale of their series?

Anyone wanna explain to me how that works?

Originally Posted by 1987

they wanted to be the cooler more remembered universe of tmnt after the nick takeover, but they failed by insulting the flagship tmnt cartoon, and now they pay the price.

What price? What are you even talking about? You're making a lot of ridiculous, wild assumptions based solely on your own, overly-emotional nostalgia feelings and paranoid delusions.

Originally Posted by <TmNtRoX-1997>

I don't understand how anyone can justify how badly the OT turtles were treated in Turtles Forever.

I swear, some of you wouldn't be satisfied with this movie unless every other version of the Turtles got on their hands and knees to kiss your precious '87 Turtles' feet for its entire runtime.

Their goofiness was exaggerated slightly for comedic effect, but their personalities were otherwise intact. They repeatedly proved themselves effective fighters. '87 Donnie's "silly" technology saved the day multiple times (if anything, the joke was on how dismissive the 4Kids Turtles were toward them in those cases, and that was even nodded at in the movie). The Mirage Turtles even took similar shots at the 4Kids versions, which was a joke at the expense of Raphael's judgmental side, and showed that "silly" is all a matter of perspective. And the movie ended with both teams showing mutual respect for each other.

If you dudes would pay a little more attention to the details instead of flying into nostalgia-rage at every perceived slight, maybe you'd catch more of this stuff.

[pennydreadful]

Originally Posted by 1987

the only reason the ot turtles were portrayed they way they were in this film, was out of anger/jealousy. 2k3 in their prime thought they were smooth sailing, hoping to outlast the ot in how long it stays on the air. but nope, that didn't happen. 2k3 show sunk like the titanic. mirage didnt care enough to keep them around cause they werent as successful as the ot, so here comes the big nickelodeon sale. the 2k3 turtles figured "hey, if we're going out, we're bringing the ot turtles down with us!". there really was no reason to resurrect the ot turtles, they could have just took their defeat with good sportsmanship and had their own series final only based on their universe. but no, they had to be di*ks and humiliate the ot turtles, krang, shredder, and everything about the ot. i think their whole goal was they wanted to be rembered as the guys who out performed the ot turtles, but they completely flushed their own legacy down the toilet. look at them now, oh wait, they not around anymore hahaha!!!now who's laughing? all the retro merchandise nick puts out these days is ot stuff, nobody cares about the 2k3 turtles. they dug their own grave by portraying out beloved ot turtles as complete idiots. they wanted to be the cooler more remembered universe of tmnt after the nick takeover, but they failed by insulting the flagship tmnt cartoon, and now they pay the price.

Is there a reason that you had to necro-post this into a thread that hadn't been touched in a year? You're just repeating everything you already said in the "What version did worse?" thread. Calm the hysterics before you burst something.

[DarkFell]

Originally Posted by Jester

Unless they were up by Nick/Viacom then it's probably copyright.

Thanks Jester.

[Leo656]

Oh my F*CKING god, this sh*t's really happening. AGAIN. Multiple threads, now.

You're defending the "reputation" and "integrity" of a cartoon show from 30 years ago that was unapologetically aimed at 7-year-old kids. You're mad that another TMNT cartoon took a good-natured jab at them in the name of nostalgic good fun. You're seriously upset that they focused slightly more on the Lesser aspects of Fred Wolf TMNT in the name of showing CONTRAST between the two groups of characters, as well as getting a few chuckles.

You're COMPLETELY missing the point of something you've probably watched more than a few times, all because you're hung up on some perceived, imaginary "injustice" done to a couple of goddamn fictional characters. You're looking at something that was supposed to be a nostalgic love letter to the entire TMNT universe, and instead of taking it for what it's supposed to be, you're all cranky about it, completely by choice. What the sh*t.

People say I'M ****ing cynical and joyless. "Waaaah, they took something that was 75% goofy nonsense and made it look like 95%! My childhood!" This is what happens when you don't have Cracked Magazine around for you little f***ers to read growing up. You don't learn how to relax and take a joke. For Shame.

[CyberCubed]

^ Agreed. This thread has run its course and needs to be locked.