Do you think Raph is getting enough character/central focus?

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

I'm probably going to get called out for The Deadly Venom despite me liking the episode, but it was most certainly far from a Leo love fest episode. I enjoyed the episode and with that annoying Mary Sue/Gary Stu poll of the episode, I'm going to need to address it.

I'm assuming if another Turtle not Donnie or Leo got it, it would be fine. Guys, I get it, Leo shouldn't be the focal point of the show (leaders typically get the starring role 9 times out of 10) while both Mikey and Raph need something. When we look at the episode, none of the Turtles bothered to enter Leo's sparring with Splinter upon seeing the technique. In addition, Raph and Mikey were caught off guard by Karai as they didn't figure out what was going on until it was too late. The only reason Leo was praised by everyone was pulling it off by himself and trying to get his spirits up with the failure to break Karai free again. (yet again screwing her story in the process) And Werecat, may I remind you this episode did have a 2k3 writer on board with an exact plot from that show?

To go off topic for a moment, yes, the 2003 series and the Nick show have little to no Raph love. I get it, but I feel we need to put aside all previous incarnations and not compare them. Even then, Raph will still be screwed in the cartoons if it's not the movies or even the games.

Now, if Leo were to teach the others it (most specifically Mikey), then there's somewhat of a purpose besides it being an idiotic way out of a pretty dark episode that can benefit from being longer. It's fitting everything in 21 to 25 minutes that's one of my biggest gripes. The praising I get, just maybe if the heroes put up a better fight with Karai's venom first.

Also, just have Auman step down if he's got large involvement. I doubt he'll leave, but at least have his position drop in the next season.

Also, what?! Yes, that would be cool if next season is that love. Maybe season 5 will then be the Mikey season? If that's it, perfect, but remember Starfire never got a season to herself sadly.

Okay, then why were the other 3 not good enough to train and even bother to try and learn the technique? It's like it was a Leo only club and you're not invited kind of deal. They could've at least had it where the others were trying the healing hands thing but weren't able to pick it up. Mikey and Raph were taken out right away so they could focus on you guessed it, Leo. We already had a Leo episode disguised as a Raph episode with the Dark Raph episode. Leo also got praised in that one by the others and then in Deadly Venom he gets praised yet again but even more so. That might have been okay but there was only one episode in between that and it seemed too soon and too much.The writer couldn't have hit us over the head any harder that Leo is his favorite and the best turtle ever in his opinion.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Foombamaroom

I'm personally hoping for Bishop as Raph's villain.

Bishop as Raph's enemy= SIGN ME UP!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

Okay, then why were the other 3 not good enough to train and even bother to try and learn the technique? It's like it was a Leo only club and you're not invited kind of deal. Mikey and Raph were taken out right away so they could focus on you guessed it, Leo. We already had a Leo episode disguised as a Raph episode with the Dark Raph episode. Leo also got praised in that one by the others and then in Deadly Venom he gets praised yet again but even more so. That might have been okay but there was only one episode in between that and it seemed too soon and too much.The writer couldn't have hit us over the head any harder that Leo is his favorite and the best turtle ever in his opinion.

During the training spar with Leo and Splinter, all the heroes are watching the fight. Mikey I don't think would learn based on how he was only looking for the mask for comedy, tying into his absent mind that season 3 has made him. (Which is ridiculous by now) Raph and Donnie I have no clue why they couldn't be taught it. Perhaps if Leo explained the technique, they entered the room following sparring, or any other reason and they would have been taught it.

Also, darn that episode. The more I think of it, Clash of the Mutanimals is my second most hated episode of the season. Like you and I have said before Sabacooza, Leo won through whatever reason. If it wasn't so poorly handled, I could see Leo rescuing Raph if Mikey got his butt destroyed. (Mikey should have been the hero still) I have so many issues with the episode, with Raph being out of character the main problem. That episode needs a major overhaul.

If the Deadly Venom had Leo as a hero and the episode mentioned above Mikey, things could have been much better. That writer for TDV is from the 2k3 series, a heavily Leo centered show. It was based on an episode where Karai hunted the Turtles.

Now, if the heroes put up a better fight before Leo saved them, it would be a lot more tolerable. Otherwise, the hands should have been built up instead of a deus ex.

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

Bishop as Raph's enemy= SIGN ME UP!!!!!!!!



During the training spar with Leo and Splinter, all the heroes are watching the fight. Mikey I don't think would learn based on how he was only looking for the mask for comedy, tying into his absent mind that season 3 has made him. (Which is ridiculous by now) Raph and Donnie I have no clue why they couldn't be taught it. Perhaps if Leo explained the technique, they entered the room following sparring, or any other reason and they would have been taught it.

Also, darn that episode. The more I think of it, Clash of the Mutanimals is my second most hated episode of the season. Like you and I have said before Sabacooza, Leo won through whatever reason. If it wasn't so poorly handled, I could see Leo rescuing Raph if Mikey got his butt destroyed. (Mikey should have been the hero still) I have so many issues with the episode, with Raph being out of character the main problem. That episode needs a major overhaul.

If the Deadly Venom had Leo as a hero and the episode mentioned above Mikey, things could have been much better. That writer for TDV is from the 2k3 series, a heavily Leo centered show. It was based on an episode where Karai hunted the Turtles.

Now, if the heroes put up a better fight before Leo saved them, it would be a lot more tolerable. Otherwise, the hands should have been built up instead of a deus ex.

There seems to be little rhyme or reason for these episodes, nobody reigning in bad ideas. Nobody making sure there's a certain balance to the show. I still can't bring myself to watch "Clash of the Mutanimals" and "Deadly Venom" again. I can't stand those episodes.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

There seems to be little rhyme or reason for these episodes, nobody reigning in bad ideas. Nobody making sure there's a certain balance to the show. I still can't bring myself to watch "Clash of the Mutanimals" and "Deadly Venom" again. I can't stand those episodes.

I gotcha man.

They gotta sell dem kiddie toys still. (I swear, it's nearly my recurring phrase here) I swear though, I will never bring myself to view the Croaking again nor the Mutanimals episode. The former is easily the worst episode of the series for me.

At least the first two seasons got the balance down, more so with season 1. I prefer some of season 2 and it's storytelling though, so it's either way.

[Ninturtle]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

I gotcha man.

They gotta sell dem kiddie toys still. (I swear, it's nearly my recurring phrase here) I swear though, I will never bring myself to view the Croaking again nor the Mutanimals episode. The former is easily the worst episode of the series for me.

At least the first two seasons got the balance down, more so with season 1. I prefer some of season 2 and it's storytelling though, so it's either way.

What's wrong with the croaking ? I found it fun and enjoyable filller. And geez I guess I am the only one who liked clash of the mutanimals aside from it's flaws .

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Ninturtle

What's wrong with the croaking ? I found it fun and enjoyable filller. And geez I guess I am the only one who liked clash of the mutanimals aside from it's flaws .

The problems I have are Mikey's characterization with him being rewarded despite screwing up, some of the Punk Frogs' decisions made, and mostly just being a boring episode without the action. It really could have been better. It's not my least favorite episode of the series, but the weakest of the season, at least to me.

All opinions man, just think Raph could have been written better in the episode mostly is my main gripe with Clash of the Mutanimals.

[Mew]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

The problems I have are Mikey's characterization with him being rewarded despite screwing up, some of the Punk Frogs' decisions made, and mostly just being a boring episode without the action. It really could have been better. It's not my least favorite episode of the series, but the weakest of the season, at least to me.

All opinions man, just think Raph could have been written better in the episode mostly is my main gripe with Clash of the Mutanimals.

I agree with this statement.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

Bishop as Raph's enemy= SIGN ME UP!!!!!!!!

Hell yeah, me too!!

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

Now, to give Raph a main villain somewhere down the line. Maybe it's the Triceratons and Mikey gets Dregg?

I was hoping it would be either Bebop or Rocksteady, preferably Rocksteady, considering he seems to be all about muscle, and Raph's attribute to the team is supposed to be his strength (even though we have really yet to see it play out in plain view. It's only been hinted he is the strongest, but never outright told. Shame. We know Donnie is the smartest, Leo the most skilled, but I still wished they would comment on what Mike and Raph bring to the table.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

I was hoping it would be either Bebop or Rocksteady, preferably Rocksteady, considering he seems to be all about muscle, and Raph's attribute to the team is supposed to be his strength (even though we have really yet to see it play out in plain view. It's only been hinted he is the strongest, but never outright told. Shame. We know Donnie is the smartest, Leo the most skilled, but I still wished they would comment on what Mike and Raph bring to the table.

I'm thinking Dregg is either of the two brothers main enemy besides the henchmutants. Mikey for Dimension X and Raph's fear of bugs.

If Bishop comes into play hopefully, the other gets him. I think it'll be Bishop most likely for Raph.

Just give Raph either Rocksteady or Tiger Claw for a mutant enemy to fight, more towards Tiger Claw personally.

[Jester]

Thought Raph and Fishface were shown as rivals....

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Jester

Thought Raph and Fishface were shown as rivals....

I get that Jester, that's a main gripe though for me. They had a potentially great conflict with each other, tying into Raph's anger and Xever's life.

However, if the show is portraying the Turtles to be getting stronger (especially Leo), Fishface is losing being a threatening villain. His first fighting appearance established him as a threat to the team with poisoning Raphael and beating the team up. However, with Bradford becoming Rahzar, Tiger Claw being brought in, and the mutations of Bebop and Rocksteady, it ruins Xever's strength. Outside Baxter, he's the least threatening of the henchmutants by now.

I love Xever to death, but this had potential and is a major problem for Raphael, which is lost potential. The rivalry here was most certainly one of them.

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

I get that Jester, that's a main gripe though for me. They had a potentially great conflict with each other, tying into Raph's anger and Xever's life.

However, if the show is portraying the Turtles to be getting stronger (especially Leo), Fishface is losing being a threatening villain. His first fighting appearance established him as a threat to the team with poisoning Raphael and beating the team up. However, with Bradford becoming Rahzar, Tiger Claw being brought in, and the mutations of Bebop and Rocksteady, it ruins Xever's strength. Outside Baxter, he's the least threatening of the henchmutants by now.

I love Xever to death, but this had potential and is a major problem for Raphael, which is lost potential. The rivalry here was most certainly one of them.

Seems strange to me that all character interaction and development tied to Raph have been kicked to the curb or forgotten. Yeah, like the producers and writers aren't totally biased.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

Seems strange to me that all character interaction and development tied to Raph have been kicked to the curb or forgotten. Yeah, like the producers and writers aren't totally biased.

I guess this gives me reason to bring up my oldest post on the beginning of the thread again:

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

Little focus against enemies- Outside having the fewest character centered episodes Turtle wise, Raph really has no enemies to fight. Leo had Karai, have Shredder, Mikey has Rahzar, Casey now has Hun, and Donnie has a bit with the Kraang and a small extent Baxter. The enemies Raph has haven't been built on or have lost steam:

Slash: The two have made peace a little too early in my opinion and it could have been a very personal feud. It reminds me of the game Blaster Master, where Jason had to fight his mutated frog Fred. Either way, the interactions between these two are one of my personal favorites of this series, but the conflict could have been developed more.

Spider Bytes: Minor antagonist with only two appearances who only severed as a character episode for Raph.

Spy-Roach: A filler villain which showcases the phobia Raph has of insects.

Fishface: Since it can be seen the Turtles have gotten stronger over the seasons so far, Xever isn't a challenge. Considering what happened in Baxter's Gambit with Xever explaining his past, there could have been an opportunity to build off that to make these guys rivals, possibly in a "friendly" sort of way. (They'd still despise each other, but have a little respect for one another)

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

I guess this gives me reason to bring up my oldest post on the beginning of the thread again:

See, and that's another reason this show can be so irritating. It has major plot amnesia. It's like a new executive producer and writers step in and all of it gets thrown out the window. Just so happens the parts they threw out were all Raphs. They need to do a better job of keeping track of these things.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

See, and that's another reason this show can be so irritating. It has major plot amnesia. It's like a new executive producer and writers step in and all of it gets thrown out the window. Just so happens the parts they threw out were all Raphs. They need to do a better job of keeping track of these things.

And Mikey no longer has an intense problem with Rahzar either. It's a serious problem my friend. If you want my full on feelings, you'd have to look back on the first page. (I don't want the length to go over) It's before Clash of the Mutanimals, but most seems spot on.

I still like the Nick show, but I seriously believe it needs major corrections.

[Foombamaroom]

The biggest problem with the Nick show is that, I honest to god believe, there are too many writers. Think about it? You've got one writer establishing a certain thing in the universe, and then the next writer forgets it. The writer of Deadly Venom obviously did his homework because there are multiple references to previous episodes. But think of Serpent Hunt, Casey Jones vs. The Underworld, and Clash of the Mutanimals. What's the connection here?
Shredder

Serpent Hunt, episode 3x10 has the Turtles and Shredder engaging in a hardcore battle. The Turtles land some hits, but Shredder's still beating the everloving crap out of them.
Casey Jones vs. the Underworld, 3x14, has Leo going toe-to-toe with Shredder, being able to hold his ground against him without his brothers, even though Leo got the crap kicked out of him by Shredder prior to their fight.
Clash of the Mutanimals, 3x16, has the Turtles AND the Mutanimals getting the everloving crap kicked out of them by Shredder, who holds his ground and gets hit by Rockwell, who used telekinesis.

This also happens with Tiger Claw. In Wormquake, he was a decent fighter, but all of a sudden, in Wrath of Tiger Claw, he kicked the hell out of them. Then, in the next episode, the Turtles could fight him again. It bothers me because they not only do it with character personality traits, but the fighting abilities of the characters.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Foombamaroom

The biggest problem with the Nick show is that, I honest to god believe, there are too many writers. Think about it? You've got one writer establishing a certain thing in the universe, and then the next writer forgets it. The writer of Deadly Venom obviously did his homework because there are multiple references to previous episodes. But think of Serpent Hunt, Casey Jones vs. The Underworld, and Clash of the Mutanimals. What's the connection here?
Shredder

Serpent Hunt, episode 3x10 has the Turtles and Shredder engaging in a hardcore battle. The Turtles land some hits, but Shredder's still beating the everloving crap out of them.
Casey Jones vs. the Underworld, 3x14, has Leo going toe-to-toe with Shredder, being able to hold his ground against him without his brothers, even though Leo got the crap kicked out of him by Shredder prior to their fight.
Clash of the Mutanimals, 3x16, has the Turtles AND the Mutanimals getting the everloving crap kicked out of them by Shredder, who holds his ground and gets hit by Rockwell, who used telekinesis.

This also happens with Tiger Claw. In Wormquake, he was a decent fighter, but all of a sudden, in Wrath of Tiger Claw, he kicked the hell out of them. Then, in the next episode, the Turtles could fight him again. It bothers me because they not only do it with character personality traits, but the fighting abilities of the characters.

You know, I think with Tigerclaw, his anger fueled him, hence increasing his strength...or...it's like you said, different writers. ^^

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

And Werecat, may I remind you this episode did have a 2k3 writer on board with an exact plot from that show?

Where did you get this info from?

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

Where did you get this info from?

According to the episode, the writer here is Eugene Son. He wrote two episodes of the 2003 series, Scion of the Shredder and Trouble with Augie both from season 4. In the Deadly Venom, he is the writer for the episode. He also wrote Follow the Leader and Mazes & Mutants in season 2 of the 2012 series.